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Dilated
KB Cubensis Fanaticus



Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 2,347
Loc: The Ether
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
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Air drying vs dehydrater
#20256029 - 07/10/14 11:55 PM (10 years, 6 months ago) |
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My friend swears that even dehydrating @ 160F is breaking down the actives. I been reading around and find conflicting stories. I'd love to be able to show him this tomorrow so we can settle the score. As of right now I'm going to keep dehydrating but perhaps someone can tell me that I'm losing potency. All the pro's are using dehydrators so monkey see monkey do for me. Let the debate begin.
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 62,905
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Re: Air drying vs dehydrater [Re: Dilated]
#20256043 - 07/11/14 12:00 AM (10 years, 6 months ago) |
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oxygen is the enemy not dehydrator temps, the faster you can dry and seal the better
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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Dilated
KB Cubensis Fanaticus



Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 2,347
Loc: The Ether
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Re: Air drying vs dehydrater [Re: Dilated]
#20256046 - 07/11/14 12:01 AM (10 years, 6 months ago) |
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By the way, I'd love to see some scientific write up or something. Your experiences are also greatly appreciated. Also maybe someone could tell me if drying is specie dependent.
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Dilated
KB Cubensis Fanaticus



Registered: 03/28/14
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Re: Air drying vs dehydrater [Re: cronicr]
#20256052 - 07/11/14 12:02 AM (10 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: oxygen is the enemy not dehydrator temps, the faster you can dry and seal the better
It's a race against decomposition correct?
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nucleophile
international cowboy chemist


Registered: 04/28/13
Posts: 299
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Re: Air drying vs dehydrater [Re: Dilated]
#20256072 - 07/11/14 12:09 AM (10 years, 6 months ago) |
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Technically, heat (and light) speed up both decomposition and oxidation. That being said, the extra water in wet mushrooms as well as the oxygen in the air is much more of a threat to their shelf life than a few hours of heat. If you could hypothetically dry them at the exact same speed, air drying or a desiccant would probably be slightly more potent, but as it is, whatever gets them dry fastest and lets you store them in a low-oxygen environment ASAP will preserve the most potency overall.
On a personal note, ever since I noticed I could boil em in water for tea for 20 minutes and have them come out fine, I've never worried about the heat of a dehydrator.
Edited by nucleophile (07/11/14 12:15 AM)
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 62,905
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 13 minutes, 46 seconds
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Re: Air drying vs dehydrater [Re: Dilated]
#20256078 - 07/11/14 12:10 AM (10 years, 6 months ago) |
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i'll see what i can dig up but i would think it is sorta species dependant as pellies only have psilocibin and no psilocin and it's the psilocin thats unstable and degrades in the presence of oxygen but this q's are out of my realm, i'm sure someone has a far better answer then mine
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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Dilated
KB Cubensis Fanaticus



Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 2,347
Loc: The Ether
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Re: Air drying vs dehydrater [Re: cronicr]
#20256090 - 07/11/14 12:13 AM (10 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: i'll see what i can dig up but i would think it is sorta species dependant as pellies only have psilocibin and no psilocin and it's the psilocin thats unstable and degrades in the presence of oxygen but this q's are out of my realm, i'm sure someone has a far better answer then mine
Damn TC's.. what are you good for much love cron
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Dilated
KB Cubensis Fanaticus



Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 2,347
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Re: Air drying vs dehydrater [Re: nucleophile]
#20256101 - 07/11/14 12:15 AM (10 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
nucleophile said: Technically, heat (and light) speed up both decomposition and oxidation. That being said, the extra water in wet mushrooms as well as the oxygen in the air is much more of a threat to their shelf life than a few hours of heat. If you could hypothetically dry them at the exact same speed, air drying or a desiccant would probably be slightly more potent, but as it is, whatever gets them dry fastest and lets you store them in a low-oxygen environment ASAP will preserve the most potency overall.
On a personally note, ever since I noticed I could boil em in water for tea for 20 minutes and have them come out fine, I've never worried about the heat of a dehydrator. 
Well said, I tend to agree with you as well. I have no problems blending them up and adding them to my piping hot melted chocolate bars I make. mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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MHbound
Ballin Out At All Cost


Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 6,512
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Re: Air drying vs dehydrater [Re: Dilated]
#20256143 - 07/11/14 12:34 AM (10 years, 6 months ago) |
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I use the oven a lot and never have any problems. The melting point of psilo. is like 150-something??? I don't know I haven't looked in so long but honestly the difference is going to be so small it's not worth even debating over in my experience. I've dried them every way I can think of and it's just like now it's what is the fasted way I can do it.
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Squandary
man i feel it



Registered: 02/21/14
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Loc: MA
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Re: Air drying vs dehydrater [Re: MHbound]
#20256373 - 07/11/14 02:40 AM (10 years, 6 months ago) |
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"Psilocybin and psilocin are sensitive to oxidation, with psilocin being particularly sensitive. This process is accelerated at higher temperatures. There is no specific temperature at which this breakdown occurs, however, the longer you expose the psiloc(yb)in to a raised temperature (in the presence of oxygen or an oxidizer), the more will be degraded.
To my knowledge, there has been no study or report of anyone quantifying the amount of degradation at various temperatures. Qualitative reports however seem to indicate that less than an hour of boiling or steeping seems to have little to no effect on the potency of psiloc(yb)in water solution.
aloha psilo"
Melting point 220–228 °C (428–442 °F)
"That's a point of debate. You can boil mushrooms into tea with little to no degradation. I've cooked them on the grill (great with blue cheese salad dressing rubbed into the gills) with little loss, and my bbq grill runs nearly 1000F. Perhaps long term there's a problem, but short term, no. RR"
It seems that the psilocin will absolutely degrade if exposed to heat, but then again, it would degrade just during the drying process anyway. But if RR can grill up his shrooms at hundreds of degrees F, I'd feel pretty comfortable using a dehydrator below 200, or even an oven.
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StygianKnight
A Mushroom

Registered: 03/12/12
Posts: 2,717
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Re: Air drying vs dehydrater [Re: Squandary]
#20256403 - 07/11/14 03:07 AM (10 years, 6 months ago) |
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In theory any amount of heat added to the system will speed up oxidation due to adding energy. In practice psilocybin is quite stable and can withstand temperature at or above boiling for over an hour with no apparent potency loss. IMO making sure the mushrooms are completely dry is much more important than worrying about the exact temperature.
Psilocin on the other hand is very unstable and will degrade if you just look at it wrong. (Literally, in a clear solution light seems to be the main issue with psilocin). However drying removes most if not all of the psilocin whether done at room temperature or in a blast furnace so you shouldn't worry about it.
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refried

Registered: 06/14/13
Posts: 3,675
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I dehydrate on the highest setting and have also used the lowest setting which takes way longer. No potency difference from my casual testing. One of these days you'll get so many shrooms that in order to dry them all you'll have to use the highest setting. Whole damn house smells like shrooms (ugh!) at that point.
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld


Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
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Re: Air drying vs dehydrater [Re: refried]
#20257704 - 07/11/14 11:58 AM (10 years, 6 months ago) |
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i make tea with mine all the time, i do not even eat them anymore, unless they are fresh, then i do not make tea, cause i think fresh cubes taste better. no loss in potency, but shorter experience, but i attribute that to quicker metabolization from liquid vs solid digestion. i don't understand why this arguments keeps going  the people who air dry them...i mean cool, but, how much do you/they actually grow? i used air drying for many months, then when i got into tubs, it seemed stupid to air dry. for those who think there IS a noticeable loss in potency, it can be overcome by adding to ur dose. i'd rather add .5g dry to my dose, than set 5 tubs worth of harvest all over my apt to dry to ensure every little bit of actives stays in there.
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation
MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!!
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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BittrBuffalo
Deaconica

Registered: 05/19/13
Posts: 1,729
Loc: Church of the SubGenus
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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Re: Air drying vs dehydrater [Re: Dilated]
#20257709 - 07/11/14 11:59 AM (10 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
refried said: I dehydrate on the highest setting and have also used the lowest setting which takes way longer. No potency difference from my casual testing. One of these days you'll get so many shrooms that in order to dry them all you'll have to use the highest setting. Whole damn house smells like shrooms (ugh!) at that point.

I've never had a problem. There can be variation in potency from flush to flush or even shrooms from the same flush, depending on your method & if you're using MS. IME lighting conditions during fruiting can influence potency levels. That could be all in my head, but I thought RR said something about that at some point as well. Whatever it is that your friend is experiencing with loss of potency, it's not from the drying method. Dehydrators are awesome and highly recommended. The craptacular scent is the only downside, IMO. Febreeze the shit out of your house after you're done.
-------------------- Disclaimer: This post is a work of fiction, provided for entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to actual persons or events, past or present, is strictly coincidental. All celebrity voices are impersonated. If you begin your ID request with, "I just ate a bunch of these mushrooms…should I not have done that?" I'm just gonna sit back and watch Darwin at work.
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BittrBuffalo
Deaconica

Registered: 05/19/13
Posts: 1,729
Loc: Church of the SubGenus
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
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Quote:
blindingleaf said: i don't understand why this arguments keeps going 
This too.
-------------------- Disclaimer: This post is a work of fiction, provided for entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to actual persons or events, past or present, is strictly coincidental. All celebrity voices are impersonated. If you begin your ID request with, "I just ate a bunch of these mushrooms…should I not have done that?" I'm just gonna sit back and watch Darwin at work.
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld


Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
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yea the smell sucks, and also probably why i can't eat them dry anymore. i used to be able to before i was running dehydrators. that smell is cool at first cause ur all proud u grew that many, but then after a few runs, its just awful IMO. i don't like febreeze tho either but i also kinda hate any artificial smell. i do not even use scented deodorant. just smoke a joint after dehydrator has run, that'll clear it up!
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation
MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!!
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,870
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
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Quote:
To my knowledge, there has been no study or report of anyone quantifying the amount of degradation at various temperatures. Qualitative reports however seem to indicate that less than an hour of boiling or steeping seems to have little to no effect on the potency of psiloc(yb)in water solution.
It's hard to find information on the subject but there is some available if you search hard enough. With psilocin in solution at room temperature you can expect a 90% loss after one week. Dry psilocin can remain detectable for at least 5 months at room temperature and indefinitely at -5C.
Psilocybin is more stable and generally lasts 1-2 years at room temperature.
That's assuming it's not exposed to UV light.
In regard to making tea it doesn't really matter if the psilocin survives or not because you can't extract it efficiently with water anyway.
Edited by Kizzle (07/11/14 12:41 PM)
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Dilated
KB Cubensis Fanaticus



Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 2,347
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Re: Air drying vs dehydrater [Re: Kizzle]
#20258495 - 07/11/14 03:43 PM (10 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
MHbound said: I use the oven a lot and never have any problems. The melting point of psilo. is like 150-something??? I don't know I haven't looked in so long but honestly the difference is going to be so small it's not worth even debating over in my experience. I've dried them every way I can think of and it's just like now it's what is the fasted way I can do it.
I think the temp is even higher then that. No debate here as well. I couldn't keep up with out my dehydrator. Quote:
refried said: I dehydrate on the highest setting and have also used the lowest setting which takes way longer. No potency difference from my casual testing. One of these days you'll get so many shrooms that in order to dry them all you'll have to use the highest setting. Whole damn house smells like shrooms (ugh!) at that point.
Haha everyday I come home to a nice stinky fungus home. Wouldn't change it for anything though muahahahhahaQuote:
blindingleaf said: i make tea with mine all the time, i do not even eat them anymore, unless they are fresh, then i do not make tea, cause i think fresh cubes taste better. no loss in potency, but shorter experience, but i attribute that to quicker metabolization from liquid vs solid digestion. i don't understand why this arguments keeps going  the people who air dry them...i mean cool, but, how much do you/they actually grow? i used air drying for many months, then when i got into tubs, it seemed stupid to air dry. for those who think there IS a noticeable loss in potency, it can be overcome by adding to ur dose. i'd rather add .5g dry to my dose, than set 5 tubs worth of harvest all over my apt to dry to ensure every little bit of actives stays in there.
QFT! This argument is happening because he is not a shroomerite. This is real life friend and I wanted to show him this shit so he will stop harrassing me lolQuote:
blindingleaf said: yea the smell sucks, and also probably why i can't eat them dry anymore. i used to be able to before i was running dehydrators. that smell is cool at first cause ur all proud u grew that many, but then after a few runs, its just awful IMO. i don't like febreeze tho either but i also kinda hate any artificial smell. i do not even use scented deodorant. just smoke a joint after dehydrator has run, that'll clear it up!
QFT from a true hippy :PQuote:
Kizzle said:
Quote:
To my knowledge, there has been no study or report of anyone quantifying the amount of degradation at various temperatures. Qualitative reports however seem to indicate that less than an hour of boiling or steeping seems to have little to no effect on the potency of psiloc(yb)in water solution.
It's hard to find information on the subject but there is some available if you search hard enough. With psilocin in solution at room temperature you can expect a 90% loss after one week. Dry psilocin can remain detectable for at least 5 months at room temperature and indefinitely at -5C.
Psilocybin is more stable and generally lasts 1-2 years at room temperature.
That's assuming it's not exposed to UV light.
In regard to making tea it doesn't really matter if the psilocin survives or not because you can't extract it efficiently with water anyway.
This is all great stuff guys, things I pretty much knew already just wanted something to throw in his face. Please keep the information coming. I ain't scerd!
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36fuckin5
Alchemycologist


Registered: 08/11/03
Posts: 12,097
Loc: Diving into Mystical Territori...
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Re: Air drying vs dehydrater [Re: Dilated]
#20259280 - 07/11/14 07:10 PM (10 years, 6 months ago) |
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In some places (like where I live) air drying isn't an option. My RH is so high I've left mushrooms under a box fan on high for 2 days and they didn't even get leathery.
Currently if I have more mushrooms than my dehydrator holds I stick them in a cardboard box with a box fan on them till the dehydrator has room. It really does all of nothing, but makes me feel better.
-------------------- Pat The Bunny said:
A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me.
bodhisatta said:
i recommend common sense and figuring it out.
These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 8,598
Loc: Nibiru
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Re: Air drying vs dehydrater [Re: Dilated]
#20259502 - 07/11/14 07:44 PM (10 years, 6 months ago) |
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Heat and water are excellent catalysts for oxidation.
Heat from a dehydrator is less of a catalyst for oxidation than the moisture in the mushroom. As the moisture is removed, the heat becomes the primary catalyst but has little affect for the short periods we leave them in.
My uneducated opinion
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