Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   MagicBag.co Certified Organic All-In-One Grow Bags by Magic Bag   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Shrooms and God(Christianity) [Re: Kaizen]
    #20235433 - 07/07/14 01:16 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


Psychedelics show one that religion is superfluous, that organized religion is unnecessary at best, and destructive at worst. Any books or gospels that even hinted at such a gnostic agenda (including the Gospel of John which almost didn't make it into the canonical Bible), were excluded, condemned, and burned. Christianity developed on a Roman Catholic infrastructure which taught absolute dependence on the sacraments and hence on the priests and church that supported them. This is completely opposite the spiritual freedom that psychedelics impart, and their message of Self-Realization, not dependence upon grace from a mythologized deity, mediated exclusively through the receiving of the eucharist during Mass. The RC Church persecuted and executed as heretics most of its mystics who held such views. Psilocybians MAY have been the Soma of the Hindu Vedas, but otherwise were part of Meso-American culture, not Middle Eastern desert cultures.




Markos, you of all people should recognize that psychedelics do not "show one" anything but their own subconscious. What is seen and understood on psychedelics is relative to one's mental, spiritual, cultural and physical circumstances at the time the psychedelic is ingested. You cannot say that "Psychedelics show one that religion is superfluous, that organized religion is unnecessary at best, and destructive at worst", that is merely one of the infinite number of conclusions one might draw following the use of psychedelic drugs. I used to believe, quite naively, that psychedelics "showed one" Self-Realization also. Then after encountering many people, some of them on this forum, who had an infinite variety of experiences, I had to confess that psychedelics only show one what they are willing to see. I've had people tell me that psychedelics "showed them" that materialism is the truth or even that psychedelics "showed them" that there is no God. Then there are people who believe that psychedelics "showed them" that their specific denomination of Protestant Christianity is the sole truth. In South America, Shamanic peoples who have a long history of psychedelic use in their culture do not necessarily follow a theology of Self-Realization, but instead are quite ritualistic/religious in their spirituality. The Mazatecs believe that Saliva Divinorum is an incarnation of the Virgin Mary, for instance.

Granted, I will admit that Self-Realization type experiences seem to be a recurring theme with psychedelics, but it is by no means a guarantee and it is just as likely that a person or group might emerge from psychedelic experimentation having been "shown" something else entirely. You and I saw Self-Realization on psychedelics because we are by nature spiritual seekers and deep in our hearts, we longed for God/truth above all else. And even both of us apparently explored religion, even organized religion (I'm still exploring it) following our psychedelic use.

Anyway, I personally do not see the promise of spiritual freedom that can be glimpsed on psychedelics as "completely opposite" the sense of spiritual freedom that can be glimpsed via religious sacraments. In fact, both are dependent on something external, in Roman Catholocism it is the Holy Eucharist, in psychedelic drug use, it is the drug itself (which always promises that the next dose will provide that final insight you need in order to be completely liberated). Maybe you haven't experienced psychedelic addiction, but I have and I can tell you it is far more imprisoning and bondage inducing than the Eucharist could ever be, in my opinion.

Edited by Deviate (07/07/14 01:19 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 9 months
Re: Shrooms and God(Christianity) [Re: Deviate]
    #20235915 - 07/07/14 05:45 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

I think the crucial thing to be aware of is Set&Setting

Here is an interesting article

First using your critical faculties notice how he emphasizes 'psychology' in the title. This to me is a premise already which can affect 'set and setting'--how you experience the article. For example, if you are to take a trip as a Psychologist, or having been influenced by the psychological worldview, then its main credo is 'mind/consciousness-is-all-in-the-head'. Psychology is like the materialistic culture's gatekeeper which demands you do not believe, or worse experience, that mind or consciousness or spirit is not only 'inside' but everywhere. In nature, the universe.

Quote:

LSD's action is thus primarily not psychotomimetic, psychotherapeutic, creative, or even spiritual---but just what it is: mind-manifesting. It acts as a mirror and magnifying glass to its user's state of mind. If the state of that mind is anxious, LSD could easily function as an anxiety-inducing drug. If it is creative, then it could equally serve as a creativity enhancer. Should it be spiritual, then spirituality will be enhanced."




it can be all these and more. 'Anxiety' which is just a label for fear can change into creative (and why isn't the emotion of fear being creative...?) And what does he even mean by 'spiritual'. So I am in other words questioning HIS syntax. How he frames the question he is asking about. it can be easy to unknowingly be agreeing with someone who is explaining stuff not realizing your accepting their premise by doing so

Quote:

""Set-and-setting are socially constructed---they are shaped by the wider society and culture in which the psychedelic experience takes place. All the most important variables of Set-and-setting are determined by social surroundings. The character of a person is formed to a great extent by his surroundings, society, and culture, as are his expectations and intentions when coming to a drug experience. Physical and social settings are also the reflection of the society and culture in which the experience takes place. Different societies in different times in history would have different set-and-setting conditions which shaped the character of the LSD experience in different ways."




true. So if your culture is mired in the patriarchal religious concepts, these may very well influence your psychedelic experiences

So I suggest that as well as psychedelic experience you need to be critically aware. You need to question your belief system. This is what psychedelics have inspired for me. I now realize that THE most important prerequisite set and setting is understanding the intelligence of nature, and how crucially important it is for us to know how to live intelligently and lovingly with the natural world. Not only for our sake, but others, including other species and the generations to come.

The Christian myth is a myth which includes the idea that nature is fallen, and your born with original sin and need to believe in 'Jesus Christ' to be redeemed', and will go to heaven or everlasting hell depending..... This is the set and setting you would take on a trip. Admittedly you may well get insights which would see through this toxic dogma, but also you should critically question such beliefs as this in day to day life. it is learning...

Edited by zzripz (07/07/14 05:54 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Shrooms and God(Christianity) [Re: Deviate]
    #20236062 - 07/07/14 07:26 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:


Psychedelics show one that religion is superfluous, that organized religion is unnecessary at best, and destructive at worst. Any books or gospels that even hinted at such a gnostic agenda (including the Gospel of John which almost didn't make it into the canonical Bible), were excluded, condemned, and burned. Christianity developed on a Roman Catholic infrastructure which taught absolute dependence on the sacraments and hence on the priests and church that supported them. This is completely opposite the spiritual freedom that psychedelics impart, and their message of Self-Realization, not dependence upon grace from a mythologized deity, mediated exclusively through the receiving of the eucharist during Mass. The RC Church persecuted and executed as heretics most of its mystics who held such views. Psilocybians MAY have been the Soma of the Hindu Vedas, but otherwise were part of Meso-American culture, not Middle Eastern desert cultures.




Markos, you of all people should recognize that psychedelics do not "show one" anything but their own subconscious. What is seen and understood on psychedelics is relative to one's mental, spiritual, cultural and physical circumstances at the time the psychedelic is ingested. You cannot say that "Psychedelics show one that religion is superfluous, that organized religion is unnecessary at best, and destructive at worst", that is merely one of the infinite number of conclusions one might draw following the use of psychedelic drugs. I used to believe, quite naively, that psychedelics "showed one" Self-Realization also. Then after encountering many people, some of them on this forum, who had an infinite variety of experiences, I had to confess that psychedelics only show one what they are willing to see. I've had people tell me that psychedelics "showed them" that materialism is the truth or even that psychedelics "showed them" that there is no God. Then there are people who believe that psychedelics "showed them" that their specific denomination of Protestant Christianity is the sole truth. In South America, Shamanic peoples who have a long history of psychedelic use in their culture do not necessarily follow a theology of Self-Realization, but instead are quite ritualistic/religious in their spirituality. The Mazatecs believe that Saliva Divinorum is an incarnation of the Virgin Mary, for instance.

Granted, I will admit that Self-Realization type experiences seem to be a recurring theme with psychedelics, but it is by no means a guarantee and it is just as likely that a person or group might emerge from psychedelic experimentation having been "shown" something else entirely. You and I saw Self-Realization on psychedelics because we are by nature spiritual seekers and deep in our hearts, we longed for God/truth above all else. And even both of us apparently explored religion, even organized religion (I'm still exploring it) following our psychedelic use.

Anyway, I personally do not see the promise of spiritual freedom that can be glimpsed on psychedelics as "completely opposite" the sense of spiritual freedom that can be glimpsed via religious sacraments. In fact, both are dependent on something external, in Roman Catholocism it is the Holy Eucharist, in psychedelic drug use, it is the drug itself (which always promises that the next dose will provide that final insight you need in order to be completely liberated). Maybe you haven't experienced psychedelic addiction, but I have and I can tell you it is far more imprisoning and bondage inducing than the Eucharist could ever be, in my opinion.





I agree with your observations on the use of psychedelics.  I certainly ended up with basically the opposite beliefs that I had with first psychedelic experiences.  I was all new agey whatever for many years.  But I kept my mind cracked open just a tad and was willing to entertain thoughts that went in the opposite direction of where I would have preferred things to go.  My beliefs now do not reflect my personal desires.  In fact the opposite.  I'm appalled and dismayed at what I see in creation now that I've just let it be what it appears to be outside of my fantasies and heartfelt desires.  And it was there all the time. I just refused to look and accept.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (07/07/14 07:27 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Shrooms and God(Christianity) [Re: Icelander]
    #20236618 - 07/07/14 10:50 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

But why are you appalled and dismayed? Never mind, I should not ask that because I often have the same feelings and I think they are quite natural given the state of the world. Often, the more spiritually aware you become, the more miserable you become because you begin to see how backwards and screwed up people and society are.

But what I want to say is that, I believe that these negative feelings of dismay, disappointment and shock/appalledness are still due to unresolved beliefs we are holding in our subconscious. Beliefs like "things should not be this way" (which is different from things could be so much better) or beliefs like "I cannot be happy in these circumstances" or "these circumstances have this [insert meaning] meaning.


Edited by Deviate (07/07/14 11:03 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 9 months
Re: Shrooms and God(Christianity) [Re: Deviate]
    #20238277 - 07/07/14 05:32 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

the very culture and its mindcontrolling matrix dissociates us from the Deep or deepness, which gets called persona-lized as 'the unconscious' 'the subconscious'. This culture wants us to believe that mind or conscious is 'in the head'. They will become hostile if you suggest mind or consciousness or spirit is also out there as interwoven with nature. They then can say 'oh, it is your subconscious--'projecting', or whatever

they wanna keep your mind IN YOUR HEAD

Quote:

"From its beginnings…[it] is fundamentally flawed. It entered the world with a birth defect, [Psychology] bore] the ancestral curse of Cartesian rationalism, which devided the world into subjects and objects, conscious human minds and dead material things.”




So it dont matter WHAT freakin words I may think or say when I see the terrible devastation being done to nature and others. i FEEL it, and want to feel it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleeasyskunkin


Registered: 12/23/03
Posts: 565
Re: Shrooms and God(Christianity) [Re: LucyDream25]
    #20239324 - 07/07/14 08:33 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

LucyDream25 said:
What are you guys views on magic mushroom use and being a Christian? Do you think it's morally right to do such a thing? A few verses in Genises mention God giving us all plants and fruits for our own use, but then again god does not approve of drunkeness which I don't think is comparable to psychedelic use. Anyway I just wanted to see another persons opinion on this topic if you are a part of another religion or none at all I respect that but please be mature and don't criticize mine.......thanks




"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up."  Matthew 15:13

And certainly not ingested… That pretty much sums the christian attitude towards all psychoactive plants.

The first Christians that came in contact with precolombian civilizations condemned and prohibited the use of peyote and any other "herb" producing the same effects. You can find the original source here :
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1525/aa.1942.44.2.02a00240/asset/aa.1942.44.2.02a00240.pdf;jsessionid=859693FC78AE0CD8F11F96840E5A3E53.f02t03?v=1&t=hxcjooho&s=1cb400fe597ad5cb0e470840065f848480d6fdb2

Here is the highlight :

"In These latter are plainly perceived the suggestion and intervention of the Devil, the real author of this vice".

So basically, if the god of the bible is real, you are going to hell. But then there is most probably no god, biblical or else, so just relax and enjoy your trip.


--------------------
L'intérêt à croire une chose n'est pas une preuve de l'existence de cette chose.
Voltaire ; Remarques sur les pensées de Pascal (1728)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Shrooms and God(Christianity) [Re: easyskunkin]
    #20239360 - 07/07/14 08:40 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 9 months
Re: Shrooms and God(Christianity) [Re: easyskunkin]
    #20240447 - 07/08/14 02:12 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

link doesn't work. it says "forbidden"

hmmmm

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleeasyskunkin


Registered: 12/23/03
Posts: 565
Re: Shrooms and God(Christianity) [Re: zzripz]
    #20240744 - 07/08/14 05:04 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Yes you are right, it was working for me but not anymore.

Now

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1525/aa.1942.44.2.02a00240/asset/aa.1942.44.2.02a00240.pdf?v=1&t=hxd3y1lx&s=e21653c8d0d763d66fde916422e60e8fa025c3f5

Here is the text :

Inasmuch as the use of the herb or root called Peyote has been introduced into these Provinces for the purpose of detecting thefts, of divining other happenings, and of foretelling future events, it is an act of superstition condemned as opposed to the purity and integrity of our Holy Catholic Faith. This is certain because neither the said herb or any other can possess the virtue or inherent quality of producing the eBects claimed, nor Lan any cause the mental images, fantasies and hallucinations on which the above stated divinations are based. In Lhese latter are plainly perceived the suggestion and intervention of the Devil, the real author of this vice, who first avails himself of the natural credulity of the Indians and their tendency to idolatry, and later strikes down many other persons too little disposed to fear God and of very little faith. Because of these efforts the said abuse has increased in strength and is indulged in with the frequency observed. As our duty imposesupon us the obligation to put a stop to this vice and to repair the harm and grave offense to God our Lord resulting from this practice, we, after consultation and conference with learned and right-minded persons, have decreed the issuing of the present edict to each of you, one and all, by which we admonish you and summon you to obedience by virtue of your holy submission [to the Church] and under penalty of anathema lalw senlentiae lrina canonica monilione praentissa, and other pecuniary and corporal penalties within our discretion. We order that henceforth no person of whatever rank or social condition can or may make use of the said herb, Peyote, nor of any other kind under any name or appearance for the same or similar purposes, nor shall he make the Indians or any other person take them, with the further warning that disobedience to these decrees shall cause us, in addition to the penalties and condemnation above stated, to take action against such dis- obedient and recalcitrant persons as we would against those suspected of heresy to our Holy
Catholic Faith.
Inasmuch as the said vice has been so widely introduced and practiced up to the present,
as is well known, and as our intention is both to ban it, and to remedy this evil hence- forth and to ease the conscience of those who have been guilty, we, desiring to act with con- sideration and enjoying the authority to do so bestowed on us by the Most Illustrious Con- fessor of his Majesty, the Inquisitor General in all his realms and dominions, do hereby grant pardon and remission of all past sins in the said vice up to the day of the publication of this our edict and bann; and we confer upon any confessor whatsoever, whether of the secular or the regular clergy duly approved by his Superior, the right and power to absolve from the said sin any person who may have committed it up to now, hut with the proviso that this absoluiion shall not be extended to the future, nor [apply] to other misdeeds, abuses, sorcery and acts of superstition enumerated in the General Edict of the Faith, or in other decrees of this tenor that we have had posted as they shall remain in force and be observed. In order that the con- tent of this letter may be brought to the knowledge of everyone and that no one may be ignorant of it, we order that i t shall be published in every city, town and village of our district. Given in the Hall of our Court on the 29th day of June, 1620.


--------------------
L'intérêt à croire une chose n'est pas une preuve de l'existence de cette chose.
Voltaire ; Remarques sur les pensées de Pascal (1728)

Edited by easyskunkin (07/08/14 05:25 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 9 months
Re: Shrooms and God(Christianity) [Re: easyskunkin]
    #20240857 - 07/08/14 05:57 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

VERY interesting (but are there some spelling mistakes. Some words I can't make out?)

I also found this:
Quote:


From the beginning, the Catholic Church found in peyote another evil to be rooted out of the New World. ...

In an effort to purge their new Christian converts of the use of peyotl and ololuiqui the Church prepared a catechism to be used by priests confessionals. One can appreciate just how evil peyote was considered to be by the Church by reading a few lines of this catechism:

Hast thou eaten the flesh of man?

Hast thou eaten the peyote?

Do you suck the blood of others?

Do you adorn with flowers places where idols are kept?
source



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleeasyskunkin


Registered: 12/23/03
Posts: 565
Re: Shrooms and God(Christianity) [Re: zzripz]
    #20241328 - 07/08/14 09:35 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

The spelling mistake are caused by copy pasting a scanned text


--------------------
L'intérêt à croire une chose n'est pas une preuve de l'existence de cette chose.
Voltaire ; Remarques sur les pensées de Pascal (1728)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 9 months
Re: Shrooms and God(Christianity) [Re: easyskunkin]
    #20241338 - 07/08/14 09:40 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

so how to resolve that?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 9 months
Re: Shrooms and God(Christianity) [Re: zzripz]
    #20241532 - 07/08/14 10:52 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

also here:

Quote:

We, the Inquisitors against heretical perversity and apostasy, by virtue of apostolic authority declare, inasmuch as the use of the herb or root called Peyote has been introduced into these Provinces for the purpose of detecting thefts, or divining other happenings, and of foretelling future events, it is an act of superstition condemned as opposed to the purity and integrity of our Holy Catholic Faith. This is certain because neither the said herb nor any other can possess the virtue or inherent quality of producing the effects claimed, nor can any cause the mental images, fantasies and hallucinations on which the above stated divinations are based. In these latter are plainly perceived the suggestion and intervention of the Devil, the real author of this vice, who first avails himself of the natural credulity of the Indians and their tendency to idolatry, and later strikes down many other persons too little disposed to fear God and of very little faith. (Leonard, 1942)source


Emphasis mine

As a side note, although no doubt using psychedelic vegetation to detect thefts, divining other happenings, foretelling the future, and finding lost objects may very well have its use. Though I personally am not one for wanting to know what's going to happen, and I haven't used psychedelics for those reasons, it has to be noticed there is no talk about ecstasy. The sheer delight of psychedelic experience. That is central for me.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   MagicBag.co Certified Organic All-In-One Grow Bags by Magic Bag   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Psychological and metaphysical aspects of Music
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Blastrid 31,999 107 12/08/16 01:45 AM
by Fractaliopsybe
* What religion are you?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
undecided 23,280 122 12/25/22 07:38 PM
by LogicaL Chaos
* The Snakes are inside me...
( 1 2 3 all )
Adamist 13,290 44 02/05/21 10:58 PM
by makalis
* Why did the Buddha
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
KickleM 6,100 110 08/12/12 08:38 PM
by ConfettiHead
* hello MJF 1,928 6 10/10/05 03:05 AM
by MJF
* And this is what you get for asking questions? FatBath 455 0 11/09/06 08:40 PM
by FatBath
* Visualize and Manifest MisterMuscaria 841 11 04/07/09 02:31 AM
by Diaboleros
* You should all develop your psychic ability.
( 1 2 3 4 ... 15 16 )
Softteddybear 17,068 307 10/20/09 09:54 AM
by Poid

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Shroomism, Rose, Kickle, yogabunny, DividedQuantum
5,107 topic views. 0 members, 2 guests and 1 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.027 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 15 queries.