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OfflineHigglePig
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What's with the Absolutist Anti-LC Stance?
    #20241019 - 07/08/14 07:23 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Almost any post on this site with someone mentioning they do LC has at least one (and usually more) person chiming in with something along the lines of "LC? I stopped reading right there. You'll never get shit to grow and you're an idiot."

Do these people know that LC isn't the same as using used kleenex to inoculate? People who have no grow experience like myself have successfully used LC and I don't see how these people, simply because they prefer a number of fine methods like grain to grain or agar wedges, act like LC couldn't possibly work.

I could see them arguing: 'Once you have an amount of grain spawn, I advocate that you begin to use that to perform future inoculations, as it's cleaner and more consistent,' or something of that ilk.

But to be like "You might as well have injected warm cat piss into those jars, you'll never grow shit and you're worse than stupid for thinking LC was functional," seems pretty effed up to me.


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Edited by HigglePig (07/08/14 07:30 AM)

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Invisibledas_shroom
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Re: Do the Fundamentalist Anti-LC Veterans KNOW They Sound Douchey? [Re: HigglePig]
    #20241046 - 07/08/14 07:36 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Here's my take on it, and I haven't been around for long.

I think that the folks that try to get newbies to steer clear of LC's are correct. I think that they are just trying to set up a new grower with the best chances of a successful grow. If a certain way of doing things (in this case LC's) have a higher rate of failure, then it might dissuade a new grower from trying to continue on if they are constantly getting contamination.

From my several months of lurking, I've noticed the same "Anti LC" culture that you have, but again, I see it as knowledgeable vets trying to make sure that a newbie has a good first grow so that said newbie will pick up an awesome hobby and not give up.

I don't think that anyone is going to tell you to stop using something that works for you...If LC's are rocking for you, then why not keep using them?

That being said, the TC tags are earned for a reason, and people that have been growing for longer tend to have advice that works.

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OfflineHigglePig
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Re: Do the Fundamentalist Anti-LC Veterans KNOW They Sound Douchey? [Re: das_shroom]
    #20241054 - 07/08/14 07:40 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

das_shroom said:
Here's my take on it, and I haven't been around for long.

I think that the folks that try to get newbies to steer clear of LC's are correct. I think that they are just trying to set up a new grower with the best chances of a successful grow. If a certain way of doing things (in this case LC's) have a higher rate of failure, then it might dissuade a new grower from trying to continue on if they are constantly getting contamination.

From my several months of lurking, I've noticed the same "Anti LC" culture that you have, but again, I see it as knowledgeable vets trying to make sure that a newbie has a good first grow so that said newbie will pick up an awesome hobby and not give up.

I don't think that anyone is going to tell you to stop using something that works for you...If LC's are rocking for you, then why not keep using them?

That being said, the TC tags are earned for a reason, and people that have been growing for longer tend to have advice that works.




That's a good point. While LC seems to work for more people than the veterans seem to expect it to, it's also very easy to mess up and the method of inoculation where it is most difficult to tell in advance if something is wrong with the culture.

Agar wedge seems like a pretty advanced method, but it also lets you see if there's a problem. Grain to grain is simple, effective, fast, and clean until you start getting out into g2g2g2g2g2g2g2g.

It makes sense. I just think, if not discouraging newbies is their goal, maybe taking a more instructive, less 'Your LC isn't going to work' when it's already working tone would be a great way to help in that endeavor. Outright active discouragement is going to add to discouraged newbies.


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Do the Fundamentalist Anti-LC Veterans KNOW They Sound Douchey? [Re: HigglePig] * 1
    #20241064 - 07/08/14 07:44 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

We like to steer noobs in the right direction, where they will have the most success possible.

Not informing them that LC is by far the worst way to inoculate something would be harmful, so we inform.

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Invisibleskeet157
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Re: Do the Fundamentalist Anti-LC Veterans KNOW They Sound Douchey? [Re: HigglePig]
    #20241095 - 07/08/14 07:58 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Also if you're using spores,you already have a good,easy way of inoculating. The only thing an LC will do is give you a couple day head start.

Sounds like impatience is at the heart of all this LC business.

You're spending time on the process anyway. Isn't it counterproductive? Why not just shoot up some jars with spores and let them germinate just like you have to wait for your LC to form?

......agar.......

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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Do the Fundamentalist Anti-LC Veterans KNOW They Sound Douchey? [Re: skeet157]
    #20241104 - 07/08/14 08:01 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

skeet157 said:
The only thing an LC will do is give you a couple day head start.



Not really....spores still have to germinate....then wait for the LC to grow some.....then test jars still have to be shot up and grown out.

How is that a head start?

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OfflineDos Ounce
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Re: Do the Fundamentalist Anti-LC Veterans KNOW They Sound Douchey? [Re: skeet157]
    #20241124 - 07/08/14 08:09 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I asked this question myself a few weeks ago.:strokebeard:

from what I understand LC's are also bad about having unseen contams.

It basically comes down to there being little extra benefit from using LC, but a decently higher risk of fucking your grow up.

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Invisibleskeet157
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Re: Do the Fundamentalist Anti-LC Veterans KNOW They Sound Douchey? [Re: PussyFart]
    #20241127 - 07/08/14 08:10 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

PussyFart said:
Quote:

skeet157 said:
The only thing an LC will do is give you a couple day head start.



Not really....spores still have to germinate....then wait for the LC to grow some.....then test jars still have to be shot up and grown out.

How is that a head start?




Yeah,head start vs. spores. Inoculate one jar with spores and one with LC. LC has a head start....

Read the rest of my post...

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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: Do the Fundamentalist Anti-LC Veterans KNOW They Sound Douchey? [Re: PussyFart]
    #20241137 - 07/08/14 08:16 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I am with the anti-lc for beginnners camp. I will say that agar makes me much more comfortable with lc. I can drop a clean wedge of some culture into a jar of lc solution and get good rapid  subaqueous growth. I dont do this for cubensis because its a helluva lot easier to expand those with g2g. I only use lc for exotic species that dont take well to g2g usually. I think the biggest no no for lc is starting one from spore solution in my experience doing it that way it failed 3 out of 4 times.


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Do the Fundamentalist Anti-LC Veterans KNOW They Sound Douchey? [Re: skeet157] * 1
    #20241144 - 07/08/14 08:20 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I did......your not calculating the time it takes the test jars to grow out....test jars/dishes must be shot up before you inoculate your main batch to ensure you have clean inoculant. There is no other way to ensure an LC is clean....

I if I knock up 10 cakes and 2 lcs at the same time, the cakes will be fully colonized, consolidated, and fruiting by the time the LC was ready to be tested.

It does the exact opposite of saving you time, no matter how you calculate it....plus it adds a really big point of failure that didn't need to be there in the first place.

Just my opinion.

Edited by PussyFart (07/08/14 08:23 AM)

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Invisibleskeet157
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Re: Do the Fundamentalist Anti-LC Veterans KNOW They Sound Douchey? [Re: PussyFart]
    #20241164 - 07/08/14 08:31 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not talking about starting everything at the same time. I'm saying someone hands you a "tested clean" LC syringe and a spore syringe,which one will grow faster?

I also said its counterproductive to waste time on the whole process(LC inoculation, germination,then grain inoculation) when you can just shoot spores into your grain,they germinate at the same rate as your LC. And as a result,as you said,removing another chance for contam.

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Re: Do the Fundamentalist Anti-LC Veterans KNOW They Sound Douchey? [Re: PussyFart]
    #20241166 - 07/08/14 08:31 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

LC is fine if you or on top of your sterile tech

OP just think about it super logically.

All LC media is is a solution of some sweet shit and contams love it

Mess up once, put a finger somewhere it shouldn't be, get your filter wet etc, next thing you know you'll pumping jars and spawn bags with contams you can't even see

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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Do the Fundamentalist Anti-LC Veterans KNOW They Sound Douchey? [Re: skeet157]
    #20241183 - 07/08/14 08:38 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

skeet157 said:
I'm not talking about starting everything at the same time. I'm saying someone hands you a "tested clean" LC syringe and a spore syringe,which one will grow faster?

I also said its counterproductive to waste time on the whole process(LC inoculation, germination,then grain inoculation) when you can just shoot spores into your grain,they germinate at the same rate as your LC. And as a result,as you said,removing another chance for contam.



:thumbup:

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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Do the Fundamentalist Anti-LC Veterans KNOW They Sound Douchey? [Re: Mushiez]
    #20241191 - 07/08/14 08:42 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Its about learning to walk before you can run. Spore syringes are rarely 100% clean. They work on brf or grains because any contams in them will be small in number and might only mess up a jar or two allowing for a decent success rate. But if one of those spores ends up in your LC and maybe takes its sweet ass time to germinate, then you have a situation where your LC is teaming with mold. The spore only germanated after you shot up your test jar (many noobs might even skip this precaution) and then you find out the hard way what happens when you nock up a dozen jars with trich.

Take the time to learn proper sterile tek so you know what the hell your doing, then if you decide to play around with some LC at least you have a good chance of having decent results.

Finally the idea of ms LC just seems so pointless, especially for cubes.  Get a fast aggressive clone and maybe the speed might be worthwhile.  Or start working with exotics or edibles and then maybe there is a point. But agar is the workhorse and can do anything LC can with far less risk.

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Offlinecamplo
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Re: Do the Fundamentalist Anti-LC Veterans KNOW They Sound Douchey? [Re: Mushiez]
    #20241195 - 07/08/14 08:44 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I've noticed that too, that is, the anti lc attitude. When I was a noob several years ago people where in love with it. I've never had an issue with it. I used to make batches of LC in baby food jars, and knocked up quart jars with about 15ml, making 4 jars from one 60ml syringe. And it does speed up colonization significantly. But I always started on agar and my sterile technique has always been on point from the get go. It should be expected of noobs to start on agar since you don't even know if you have a contaminated syringe directly from the supplier, and yes sometimes that does happen, not too mention, if your sterile technique is bad, agar will let you know a lot faster than waiting for a jar of grain to show. If you can't successfully inoculate agar chances are you won't have any success with anything else either. As well, I use a "glove box" which is my version of a still air box that has attached shoulder length gloves instead of just holes for your arms. As well, I spray down the the walls of my loaded glove box so that a majority of baddies stick to the wet surface thus further cleaning the inside environment of the box. I should make a tech on my glove box.


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OfflineDos Ounce
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Re: Do the Fundamentalist Anti-LC Veterans KNOW They Sound Douchey? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #20241214 - 07/08/14 08:53 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
But agar is the workhorse and can do anything LC can with far less risk.



:ohyeahdefinitely:

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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Do the Fundamentalist Anti-LC Veterans KNOW They Sound Douchey? [Re: camplo]
    #20241229 - 07/08/14 08:58 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

camplo said:
I use a "glove box" which is my version of a still air box that has attached shoulder length gloves instead of just holes for your arms. As well, I spray down the the walls of my loaded glove box so that a majority of baddies stick to the wet surface thus further cleaning the inside environment of the box. I should make a tech on my glove box.



When the gloves are attached to the box, how do you flame sterilize your tools? Flaming inside the box creates heat currents....mix that with alcohol fumes and you have a very bad experience waiting to happen. Glove being attached to your box is a handicap.

How do you stop drafts from coming in through your imperfect lid when you move your arms around inside and the pressure changes ever so slightly?

SABs(Still Air Boxes) without gloves attached are more practical in this hobby than a GB(Glove Box) with gloves attached.

The gloves should be attached to you, and you should be able to move your arms in and out of it to flame sterilize between jars/transfers.

Edited by PussyFart (07/08/14 08:59 AM)

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Re: What's with the Absolutist Anti-LC Stance? [Re: HigglePig]
    #20241257 - 07/08/14 09:06 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

LC is all about IFs

~ IF you can be pretty sure about your clean transfer abilities, either by using annoying syringe-only transfers or great still-air box / sterile airflow cab technique,
~ IF the liquid doesn't become hazy instead of "clear", indicating a bacterial contamination,
~ IF the lc is for expansion of a culture you have going elsewhere, so your grow process isn't waiting on it to ready,
~ IF that culture is a tested proven isolate, as to make any of it worth doing at all,  and
~ IF you only use 1 consecutive generation of lc expansion, as to not let your culture become accustomed to sugar,

then LC can be a pretty great way to quickly expand and inoculate a culture.



A culture syringe of a good LC is assured to be 'sterile', more than spore prints and hence spore syringes (unless made with both sterile fruiting and printing methods such as mine) -
that is why edible species culture syringes are the most popular ways for beginners to acquire strong isolate cultures, giving them by far their best chances on their first grow.

They're good and easy ways to store syringes in the fridge for semi-long term.

A 10cc syringe is able to spark up and colonize up to a half-dozen jars, typically more quickly than other ways.


It's also a bit less expensive to expand with an LC than a grain jar, although this is kindof trivial:
LC-based failures (from not nailing the first two IFs above, and using an untested LC anyways) cost FAR more than most other myco failures.



All expansions have their advantages.
LC has several nifty advantages, but a potential disadvantage that newbies have trouble avoiding and that can be costly and frustrating.


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OfflineHigglePig
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Re: What's with the Absolutist Anti-LC Stance? [Re: Violet]
    #20241547 - 07/08/14 10:56 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Lot of good thoughts here. I directorate everybody being instructive and helpful about the discussion, as well. This board rocks!


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Offlinecamplo
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Re: Do the Fundamentalist Anti-LC Veterans KNOW They Sound Douchey? [Re: PussyFart]
    #20260916 - 07/12/14 12:44 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

PussyFart said:
Quote:

camplo said:
I use a "glove box" which is my version of a still air box that has attached shoulder length gloves instead of just holes for your arms. As well, I spray down the the walls of my loaded glove box so that a majority of baddies stick to the wet surface thus further cleaning the inside environment of the box. I should make a tech on my glove box.



When the gloves are attached to the box, how do you flame sterilize your tools? Flaming inside the box creates heat currents....mix that with alcohol fumes and you have a very bad experience waiting to happen. Glove being attached to your box is a handicap.

How do you stop drafts from coming in through your imperfect lid when you move your arms around inside and the pressure changes ever so slightly?

SABs(Still Air Boxes) without gloves attached are more practical in this hobby than a GB(Glove Box) with gloves attached.

The gloves should be attached to you, and you should be able to move your arms in and out of it to flame sterilize between jars/transfers.





I would flame sterilize the needle and then cap it before loading the box. I also had alcohol in the cap...I know what you mean about the draft and the moving of arms. But if you think about it a little, the pressure would only be affected if the volume was changed....why would the volume change again? Moving around does not cause volume changes....If you move an ice cube around in a cup...the water level doesn't go up. But regardless my design still takes advantage of the still air concept, plus the spraying down of the sides is like a contam sticky pad. After loading the box I actually sprayed all the walls with bleach water and let it sit for 15 minutes then went on with the operation. All my tools were sterilized inside a tin foil baggy before loading as well. Its extreme over kill...I know...I also never contaminated my lc/agar/grains.


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