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Patlal
You ask too many questions



Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,805
Loc: Ottawa
Last seen: 8 hours, 48 minutes
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People need to stop using the unemployment rate in order to measure economic performance
#20219071 - 07/03/14 11:20 AM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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The unemployment rate number is a completely flawed calculation. I don't know why people use that statistic to measure anything really
Here's a simple example to portray the obvious flaw:
We have a population of 40 and 5 of them are unemployed.
5/40 X 100 = 12.5% unemployement rate
Let's say that 1 of these 5 unemployed person decides to give up looking for work and goes on welfare, therefore not being part of the active population anymore
4/39 X 100 = 10.3% unemployment rate.
As you can see the unemployment rate went from 12.5% to 10.3%
Not a single job has been lost or created...
Get it?
Now stop using this flawed data and start using the real number you can trust. The employment rate.
Politicians have been using the unemployment rate to make their opponents look bad. That's the only true purpose the unemployment rate has.
Discuss if you want. But argument is useless.
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Tmethyl
Smear in the shale


Registered: 07/16/12
Posts: 16,431
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: People need to stop using the unemployment rate in order to measure economic performance [Re: Patlal]
#20219111 - 07/03/14 11:30 AM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said: Discuss if you want. But argument is useless.
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Nova

Registered: 10/16/02
Posts: 1,365
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
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Re: People need to stop using the unemployment rate in order to measure economic performance [Re: Tmethyl]
#20219356 - 07/03/14 12:33 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Not to mention- if one of those unemployed gets a $7/hr burger flipping job they are counted as employed.
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Gilgamesh18
Herbivore Man

Registered: 03/01/12
Posts: 11,671
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Re: People need to stop using the unemployment rate in order to measure economic performance [Re: Nova]
#20219374 - 07/03/14 12:39 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nova said: Not to mention- if one of those unemployed gets a $7/hr burger flipping job they are counted as employed.
The entitlement it burns
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
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Re: People need to stop using the unemployment rate in order to measure economic performance [Re: Gilgamesh18]
#20219415 - 07/03/14 12:51 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nova said: Not to mention- if one of those unemployed gets a $7/hr burger flipping job they are counted as employed.
this is why i think unemployment is a bad gauge of the economy. what's happening now is unemployment rates are going down but it's because middle class people are taking jobs where they're overqualified, making a fraction of what they formerly did, keeping less qualified people who needs those jobs out of work. mass marginalization.
Quote:
Gilgamesh18 said: The entitlement it burns
we're in a mess that was intentionally created by the financial class. i worked hard to get where i was at and even now there are still no jobs. i fled the country because the economy was such shit. if you think "entitlement" means wanting something that you've already worked years to have then that's pretty fucked.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
Edited by millzy (07/03/14 12:53 PM)
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Magicman69
All About the Benjamins



Registered: 05/29/13
Posts: 6,876
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Re: People need to stop using the unemployment rate in order to measure economic performance [Re: millzy]
#20219514 - 07/03/14 01:19 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well, raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour isn't a solution. All that will do is raise prices and the cost of living. There will be no benefit. Many small businesses simply can not afford to pay such wages, especially now that full time employees are to be provided healthcare too.
People save up for 10 to 20 years to start a small business or franchise. It's not an easy thing to do and is a huge financial risk. Who would take such a risk for a minimal reward? Sure, some companies like Walmart could afford to pay their employees more but not all businesses can. It's not a one size fits all sort of thing.
They could do something where if a company makes a certain amount of profits they have to raise wages. I know true conservatives won't like this idea but it's just a thought. The wage increase could be annually and might not have to be too significant. Since it would be annually, if the profits fall so would the wages.
Edited by Magicman69 (07/03/14 01:27 PM)
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memes
Blessed



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
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Re: People need to stop using the unemployment rate in order to measure economic performance [Re: Magicman69]
#20219665 - 07/03/14 02:11 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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oh look, a canadian creating another thread about US economic metrics.
nobody measures economic performance with the unemployment rate, dummy, they measure the unemployment rate using the unemployment rate. they measure economic performance with GDP, which i think you had a thread about a little while back - yah?

we measure underemployment as well, by the way.
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Patlal
You ask too many questions



Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,805
Loc: Ottawa
Last seen: 8 hours, 48 minutes
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Re: People need to stop using the unemployment rate in order to measure economic performance [Re: memes]
#20219708 - 07/03/14 02:25 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Did not mention anything about the US. That's how the measure it everywhere.
Why does absolutely everything I say has to be nationalized? Sure, sometimes I do it. Sometimes I don't. But it always ends up that way...
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memes
Blessed



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
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Re: People need to stop using the unemployment rate in order to measure economic performance [Re: Patlal]
#20219714 - 07/03/14 02:27 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said: Did not mention anything about the US. That's how the measure it everywhere.
Why does absolutely everything I say has to be nationalized? Sure, sometimes I do it. Sometimes I don't. But it always ends up that way...
well, it just so happened the monthly US jobs report, containing the unemployment rate, was released at 8:30am - like 5hr before this thread
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Patlal
You ask too many questions



Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,805
Loc: Ottawa
Last seen: 8 hours, 48 minutes
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Re: People need to stop using the unemployment rate in order to measure economic performance [Re: memes]
#20219720 - 07/03/14 02:30 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
memes said:
Quote:
Patlal said: Did not mention anything about the US. That's how the measure it everywhere.
Why does absolutely everything I say has to be nationalized? Sure, sometimes I do it. Sometimes I don't. But it always ends up that way...
well, it just so happened the monthly US jobs report, containing the unemployment rate, was released at 8:30am - like 5hr before this thread
The only reason I made this thread is that I a post about someone mentioning the unemployment rate. Now of course it was an american talking economics, but I was unaware the numbers were so fresh
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memes
Blessed



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
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Re: People need to stop using the unemployment rate in order to measure economic performance [Re: Patlal]
#20219752 - 07/03/14 02:37 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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it was my fault, i made the assumption. you never explicitly made it about the US.
:mybad:
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Patlal
You ask too many questions



Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,805
Loc: Ottawa
Last seen: 8 hours, 48 minutes
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Re: People need to stop using the unemployment rate in order to measure economic performance [Re: memes]
#20220049 - 07/03/14 03:56 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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No problem.
Actually surprised to recieve an apology on this website.
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
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Re: People need to stop using the unemployment rate in order to measure economic performance [Re: Magicman69]
#20220306 - 07/03/14 05:09 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Magicman69 said: Well, raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour isn't a solution. All that will do is raise prices and the cost of living. There will be no benefit. Many small businesses simply can not afford to pay such wages, especially now that full time employees are to be provided healthcare too.
People save up for 10 to 20 years to start a small business or franchise. It's not an easy thing to do and is a huge financial risk. Who would take such a risk for a minimal reward? Sure, some companies like Walmart could afford to pay their employees more but not all businesses can. It's not a one size fits all sort of thing.
They could do something where if a company makes a certain amount of profits they have to raise wages. I know true conservatives won't like this idea but it's just a thought. The wage increase could be annually and might not have to be too significant. Since it would be annually, if the profits fall so would the wages.
as a business owner you aren't entitled to cheap labor any more than you're entitled to cheap office supplies. labor is the most important expense: not only is it an investment on the people who will, ideally, make you rich, but it's human lives. people need things like healthcare and a living wage, and denying your workers such is basically telling them that they don't count as people in the eyes of your business.
as far as the cost of living argument goes, it's nonsense. there is so much concentration of profit at the very top that letting a minuscule amount of that go back to the employees would at worst raise prices fractions of cents. what people seem to believe regarding this argument is largely theology: it has no basis in the real world. stop buying into the bullshit.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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memes
Blessed



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
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Re: People need to stop using the unemployment rate in order to measure economic performance [Re: Patlal]
#20220380 - 07/03/14 05:30 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said: No problem.
Actually surprised to recieve an apology on this website.
i apologize when i'm wrong. it doesn't happen frequently
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
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Re: People need to stop using the unemployment rate in order to measure economic performance [Re: memes]
#20220399 - 07/03/14 05:35 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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if i'm mistaken about something or even if i come off like a dick to someone i'm pretty quick to retract my statement or apologize. it's part of not having anything to prove.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,395
Loc: You get banned for saying that
Last seen: 6 hours, 10 minutes
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Re: People need to stop using the unemployment rate in order to measure economic performance [Re: Patlal]
#20220410 - 07/03/14 05:38 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said: The unemployment rate number is a completely flawed calculation. I don't know why people use that statistic to measure anything really
Here's a simple example to portray the obvious flaw:
We have a population of 40 and 5 of them are unemployed.
5/40 X 100 = 12.5% unemployement rate
Let's say that 1 of these 5 unemployed person decides to give up looking for work and goes on welfare, therefore not being part of the active population anymore
4/39 X 100 = 10.3% unemployment rate.
As you can see the unemployment rate went from 12.5% to 10.3%
Not a single job has been lost or created...
Get it?
Now stop using this flawed data and start using the real number you can trust. The employment rate.
Politicians have been using the unemployment rate to make their opponents look bad. That's the only true purpose the unemployment rate has.
Discuss if you want. But argument is useless.
we should stop using the unemployment rate, and begin using a rate of measurement based on what a company makes on how much each employee makes after working non stop for the company 40-60 hours a week.
Then let's see how stable our economic model is to begin with, if you begin counting how long a person can now take off work at one time and lose all their money and no longer afford to take showers to go to work because they missed a few bills, lose their job, and now the place they work can't continue production or sales without a work force, you get a much better picture of how well the economy is.
If you want to measure the economy by how many people are busy, well then it's CONSTANTLY BOOMING, considering that often all these low wage blue collar idiots will uselessly spend as much time looking for a job, as they will at the actual job once they get it, then what you have, is a constantly rate of production rising as fast as the population can grow, at least in this country. After all, how many interviews does it take to get one job these days on an average statistics model?
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,395
Loc: You get banned for saying that
Last seen: 6 hours, 10 minutes
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Re: People need to stop using the unemployment rate in order to measure economic performance [Re: millzy]
#20220423 - 07/03/14 05:44 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
Quote:
Nova said: Not to mention- if one of those unemployed gets a $7/hr burger flipping job they are counted as employed.
this is why i think unemployment is a bad gauge of the economy. what's happening now is unemployment rates are going down but it's because middle class people are taking jobs where they're overqualified, making a fraction of what they formerly did, keeping less qualified people who needs those jobs out of work. mass marginalization.
Quote:
Gilgamesh18 said: The entitlement it burns
we're in a mess that was intentionally created by the financial class. i worked hard to get where i was at and even now there are still no jobs. i fled the country because the economy was such shit. if you think "entitlement" means wanting something that you've already worked years to have then that's pretty fucked.
why thank you. If people consider the wealthy job providers and everyone else self entitled bums sucking away at those motivated enough to "finance themselves somewhere" cough* cough*... provide a stable business model that helps everyone else, then I ask why should a person who worked hard to double or triple their salary steep down to a basic burger flipping job, just because some billionaire needed a bail out that bankrupted someone else. Is the person who works hard for them self as entitled as the billionaire? Only those who don't qualify are self entitled bums? Well why should some billionaire ruin a guys reputation who worked and slaved for a company to make it become something, and is now demoted to some other shit office, because some greedy billionaire counted his earning a little too high, got loaned a little too much, and filed for bankruptcy after accumulating more then most other people could ever dream of?
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,395
Loc: You get banned for saying that
Last seen: 6 hours, 10 minutes
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Re: People need to stop using the unemployment rate in order to measure economic performance [Re: millzy]
#20220430 - 07/03/14 05:46 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
Quote:
Magicman69 said: Well, raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour isn't a solution. All that will do is raise prices and the cost of living. There will be no benefit. Many small businesses simply can not afford to pay such wages, especially now that full time employees are to be provided healthcare too.
People save up for 10 to 20 years to start a small business or franchise. It's not an easy thing to do and is a huge financial risk. Who would take such a risk for a minimal reward? Sure, some companies like Walmart could afford to pay their employees more but not all businesses can. It's not a one size fits all sort of thing.
They could do something where if a company makes a certain amount of profits they have to raise wages. I know true conservatives won't like this idea but it's just a thought. The wage increase could be annually and might not have to be too significant. Since it would be annually, if the profits fall so would the wages.
as a business owner you aren't entitled to cheap labor any more than you're entitled to cheap office supplies. labor is the most important expense: not only is it an investment on the people who will, ideally, make you rich, but it's human lives. people need things like healthcare and a living wage, and denying your workers such is basically telling them that they don't count as people in the eyes of your business.
as far as the cost of living argument goes, it's nonsense. there is so much concentration of profit at the very top that letting a minuscule amount of that go back to the employees would at worst raise prices fractions of cents. what people seem to believe regarding this argument is largely theology: it has no basis in the real world. stop buying into the bullshit.
perfect
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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Patlal
You ask too many questions



Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,805
Loc: Ottawa
Last seen: 8 hours, 48 minutes
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Re: People need to stop using the unemployment rate in order to measure economic performance [Re: millzy]
#20220971 - 07/03/14 08:25 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
Quote:
Magicman69 said: Well, raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour isn't a solution. All that will do is raise prices and the cost of living. There will be no benefit. Many small businesses simply can not afford to pay such wages, especially now that full time employees are to be provided healthcare too.
People save up for 10 to 20 years to start a small business or franchise. It's not an easy thing to do and is a huge financial risk. Who would take such a risk for a minimal reward? Sure, some companies like Walmart could afford to pay their employees more but not all businesses can. It's not a one size fits all sort of thing.
They could do something where if a company makes a certain amount of profits they have to raise wages. I know true conservatives won't like this idea but it's just a thought. The wage increase could be annually and might not have to be too significant. Since it would be annually, if the profits fall so would the wages.
as a business owner you aren't entitled to cheap labor any more than you're entitled to cheap office supplies. labor is the most important expense: not only is it an investment on the people who will, ideally, make you rich, but it's human lives. people need things like healthcare and a living wage, and denying your workers such is basically telling them that they don't count as people in the eyes of your business.
as far as the cost of living argument goes, it's nonsense. there is so much concentration of profit at the very top that letting a minuscule amount of that go back to the employees would at worst raise prices fractions of cents. what people seem to believe regarding this argument is largely theology: it has no basis in the real world. stop buying into the bullshit.

You have explained what I think better than I ever could.
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