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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2018215 - 10/17/03 02:59 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
The way I see it, the right life includes the bare essentials of life.



So then you help them.

I help those near to me and to be blunt.... fuck the rest.



Then get out of society and go live with your friends and family away from this societal community.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: silversoul7]
    #2018227 - 10/17/03 03:06 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Nope.

Start your own society where at the end of the day you're all stupid enough to throw your wages in a pot. See how long it last's when some realize they needn't do jack shit . Next some will begin taking a bit more from the pot than they really need. Then you'll get some who don't put ALL their wages in.

Pretty soon you'll wake up and see that there are just some people who are out and out scumbags and your dream society will collapse.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2018242 - 10/17/03 03:11 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Nope.

Start your own society where at the end of the day you're all stupid enough to throw your wages in a pot. See how long it last's when some realize they needn't do jack shit . Next some will begin taking a bit more from the pot than they really need. Then you'll get some who don't put ALL their wages in.



We already have that, and most of that money doesn't even go to welfare programs. People may not need to do jack shit to get the basic essentials of life, but if they want to live in a comfortable home in a nice neighborhood with a low crime rate, they have to work for their money, so there's plenty of incentive to work.

Quote:

Pretty soon you'll wake up and see that there are just some people who are out and out scumbags and your dream society will collapse.



You act as though I'm talking about giving all your money away, when it's really just a small percent of your income I'm talking about. Now if you want to just take care of your own friends and family, then you form your own little group outside of society, because in society, we are interdependent, and need to look out for the greater good of all.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: silversoul7]
    #2018261 - 10/17/03 03:16 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

It's not the greater good to support those who do not support them selves, but hey.... no-ones stopping you.

Why you think it's OK to force others is a mystery to me.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2018273 - 10/17/03 03:19 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

It's not the greater good to support those who do not support them selves, but hey.... no-ones stopping you.



It is when you consider that if they don't have any legal means of attaining food, clothes, and other necessities, they will turn to crime instead. Now, I realize I could get a gun and defend myself, but I'd rather not have to.

Quote:

Why you think it's OK to force others is a mystery to me.



Social contract, my friend. If you don't like it, you can leave.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: silversoul7]
    #2018298 - 10/17/03 03:29 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Hmmmm, I seem to recall someone suggesting you leave and you finding that ridiculous. Which is just about what I'm thinking now.

So instead I'll keep minimizing the amount of taxes I pay, writing to my reps protesting having to support fuckwads, and voting for those who oppose such asinine notions.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2018304 - 10/17/03 03:31 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Very well, then. That's your right. Thank God the majority of America disagrees with you.

EDIT: You're wrong about me finding the idea ridiculous, btw. Remember my "Fight of Flight" post? I was seriously considering leaving, but then I realized that if everyone who thought like me left, then guys like you would take over and the country would fall to ruin.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: silversoul7]
    #2018312 - 10/17/03 03:34 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

It should be my right to not have my money stolen as well.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2018328 - 10/17/03 03:39 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
It should be my right to not have my money stolen as well.



As far as I can tell, you don't consider it stealing when the money goes to the military. Why is that? Because you support the military? What about people who don't? Are they having their money stolen for the military?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinelysergic
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2018332 - 10/17/03 03:40 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

ahahaha If all the liberal commie scumbags left, this country would fall to ruin? It's more like "since all of us peacenick, hippie, communists took over, your country HAS fallen to ruin"
I suppose by 'ruin' you mean no lazy fat welfare recipients to coddle?


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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Offlinelysergic
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: lysergic]
    #2018337 - 10/17/03 03:42 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Even if I were to drop out of society, I'd still have to pay taxes. I'm not understanding WHY we are contributing money to support people that aren't doing anything? Lets say that they didn't get this support, they would have to work. Your claiming that without our support they'd turn to crime means that even you belvethat these people don't want to work. You are claming yourself, by stating that, that for these people it's get free money, or steal. Are those the types of people we want to support?

your social contract sounds like horseshit. Made by the welfare-class to be enforced with our dollars against us, Idon't get it. What responsibilities does their end of the social contract have ? If we pay them enough, they have to promise not to steal from us? doesn't sound very fair to me.


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: lysergic]
    #2018340 - 10/17/03 03:43 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ahahaha If all the liberal commie scumbags left, this country would fall to ruin? It's more like "since all of us peacenick, hippie, communists took over, your country HAS fallen to ruin"
I suppose by 'ruin' you mean no lazy fat welfare recipients to coddle?



No, by "ruin" I mean people stealing for food, the environment getting totally ruined, the gap between rich and poor widening to the point where the US becomes a banana republic, and racists like you getting elected.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: silversoul7]
    #2018345 - 10/17/03 03:44 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

The military is a constitutionally allowable expense.

The FED's should do zero more than allowed by the constitution.


Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: lysergic]
    #2018347 - 10/17/03 03:46 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

lysergic said:
Even if I were to drop out of society, I'd still have to pay taxes. I'm not understanding WHY we are contributing money to support people that aren't doing anything? Lets say that they didn't get this support, they would have to work. Your claiming that without our support they'd turn to crime means that even you belvethat these people don't want to work. You are claming yourself, by stating that, that for these people it's get free money, or steal. Are those the types of people we want to support?



No, I'm not claiming that they don't want to work. Our work force cannot support all of them without wages dropping drastically, and if wages fell low enough, then even work wouldn't provide them with enough wages to support themselves, so they'd still have to turn to crime.

Quote:

your social contract sounds like horseshit. Made by the welfare-class to be enforced with our dollars against us, Idon't get it. What responsibilities does their end of the social contract have ? If we pay them enough, they have to promise not to steal from us? doesn't sound very fair to me.



They put their money right back into the system by buying food and clothing and other essentials.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2018353 - 10/17/03 03:49 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
The military is a constitutionally allowable expense.

The FED's should do zero more than allowed by the constitution.


Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.




This is why the Constitution was set up to be ammendable. Thomas Jefferson himself was not necessarily opposed to expanding federal power, so long as the constitution was ammended to incorporate those new powers. There was a constitutional ammendment to allow federal income taxes.

Now, I'd love to continue this debate, but I really must be going now.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: silversoul7]
    #2018363 - 10/17/03 03:51 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

So ammend it if you can. Until that day the FED's are stealing from me to give to scumbags.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2018415 - 10/17/03 04:25 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)


ensuring that all people have the basic essentials for survival will
not decrease their incentive to work harder and be more upwardly
mobile.

Yes it will. By providing the basic essentials to people who
do not put forth enough effort to support themselves, you
breed dependency and decrease ambition. You take resources
away from those who rightfully earned it and give it to people
who produce little or nothing of value.


Like the car I drive right now is a Dodge Neon. My parents paid for
that car. Actually, I pay 1/3 of the payment/insurance every month,
but even if they paid for the whole thing, it would not decrease my
motivation to work hard and get a better car.

Not everybody is like you. Not everybody appreciates what they
received for free and are making an attempt to better and support
themselves. There are some people who will sit around, not work,
mooch off of whomever they can, and be content with driving a
Dodge Neon. Redistribution of wealth does help some genuinely
decent people, but it also enables a lot of scummy people.

I know multitudes of people my age who make no effort to support
themselves and mooch off of their parents. They don't care that
they have shitty cars or that they have to live at home. They don't
pay bills and more often than not they don't have jobs. They sit
around and smoke pot all day usually.


My parents are nice enough to give me what I need, but they arent
going to treat my like a king when I don't deserve it!

But the fact of the matter is that they are spending their resources
on you VOLUNTARILY. When you redistribute wealth from someone
who produces a lot to someone who doesn't produce a lot by force, it
is socialism. I think that modern day capitalism should have some
socialist policies(like caring for the mentally retarded), but
they should be very limited.


Lacking the basic essentials makes upward mobility an unnattainable
goal. Where is the incentive, then?

With hard work, nothing is unattainable.

My incentive is that I have made my own way in this world. My
incentive is my personal responsibility, my self-reliance, and
my pride.




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Offlined33p
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: silversoul7]
    #2019292 - 10/17/03 10:20 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
It is when you consider that if they don't have any legal means of attaining food, clothes, and other necessities, they will turn to crime instead. Now, I realize I could get a gun and defend myself, but I'd rather not have to.





What it boils down to is that you think it is alrite for you to pay off people just so they wont steal stuff from you. Doesnt make a whole lot of sense.

Quote:


Social contract, my friend. If you don't like it, you can leave.




I dont remember signing anything

Quote:

No, by "ruin" I mean people stealing for food, the environment getting totally ruined, the gap between rich and poor widening to the point where the US becomes a banana republic, and racists like you getting elected.




You are punished for commiting a crime, or you should be. Execute them, it wouldnt matter to me, 1 less piece of shit in the world. So if righties controlled the gov't the environment will crumble. The right has controlled the presidency, congress, and the house in the past yet the world still seems fine to me. Rich and poor are by definition polar opposites, i would expect their to be a large gap between the two. And about your notion that most righties are racists, the former slave owners of america were all leftist democrats. And anyone who bealives in AA is a racist so its not as if we dont already have many in the gov't.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Offlinelysergic
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2019305 - 10/17/03 10:29 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:


My parents are nice enough to give me what I need, but they arent
going to treat my like a king when I don't deserve it!






I'm just curious, did they decide how much of their money, and how freuqently, they give to you, or did you harangue them for beig "rich" whilst you were so "poor", then federally mandate, without their approval, that 1/10th of their paycheck goes t oyou. If you work harder, you don't get it, but if you don't work at all, youstill get it, and they are required to keep you in their house, regardless of your behavior or contribtuions, until such time as you decide that you are tired of the free ride, and want to get your own job?


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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InvisibleStarter
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: silversoul7]
    #2019477 - 10/17/03 11:38 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I'd say luvdemshrooms is still supporting society whether he likes/realizes it or not, even if he can minimise his tax as far as he can. He contributes by consuming, since that's the way modern Western society operates. The more he can buy, because he pays less tax, the more employment he generates in services & manufacturing. He might even run a business that employs people and can do so because he's shrewd in tax minimisation? Not that I'm out to pry. Just stating how the game play is.

Of course, the only real way of escaping the system is to live self-sustainable on land far away from the rat race.

Of course, for most, that won't happen as they either lack the skills, motivation or inclination to do so. In fact, I doubt the system would allow one to extricate themselves in such a way, even if you were of 'no fixed address', deep in the outback, living off goannas and brown snakes and any other wild protein you can get. Simply because there's always some suit and tie bureaucrat in the ATO (Australian Taxation Office) scheming/dreaming up some nasty fiscal trap. I'm sure your IRS are much the same.

However, an example of people wishing to liberate themselves from the taxational ball & chain is the eco points system. A system where professional people trade services and to some degree products in the form of a score based barter. It's a system where free loaders can't enter nor can it be financially assessed to tax. It's a tight system, you have to be skilled and motivated to be part of it. Here's an example. A carpenter builds you a deck, he gets say 500 eco points off you. So you then pass the eco point debt to the local butcher, since you supply him slaughtered cattle. The butcher then credits 500 eco points in meat over the next few months to the carpenter or maybe the carpenter sees the GP who is in eco point debt to you since you're a mechanic who worked on his Harley. No legal-tender cash/money in used in the loop, but the exchange through eco points is transferable to all participating skilled people -- based on an already worked out tier. The ATO is furious, as actual money is avoided!! lol.

But even with the ^above system silversoul, there will still be a safety net in society, since the pain to society without one would actually be greater i.e. higher crime rates which would hurt us all and a physically weakened people from exposure to elements and nutrient deficiency, resulting in greater disease and even epidemics. In summary, as I said earlier in this thread...

Quote:

It has its place, provided it is good for the whole.




...but only if it is good for the whole. Not to create welfare dependency and stifle incentive.

Thus, I can't begrudge someone from wanting to reduce their tax, like luvdemshrooms, or those that go eco points, since what they save will still end up injected to the greater mass (as per said in paragraph #1 ^above). And at the very least, they won't be leaning on the societal safety net because a penny saved is a penny earned. That's an old saying and a very true one.

You see, I too minimise my tax. If I hadn't in the past, well I wouldn't own my house, nor have savings and other equity, nor would I have been able to employ people. Would you rather them on welfare or given the choice of a superior income and the self esteem that comes with it? Dignity, like respect, is earned, not given.

I'm not leftwing, you've ascertained that. I'm not rightwing either. I believe in a balance and I draw values from both sides. But I know for a solid fact that there's no such thing as a free lunch. That's the laws of physics, that's the laws of nature. It's as simple as that.

My final point (not that it's really part of this thread discussion) is this commonly held view of "left and right" is actually incorrect. If you want to check the "spectrum", go to this site and undertake the self-assessment test.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/


--------------------
Convert Metric and Imperial.

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