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Offlinelysergic
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Registered: 06/09/03
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A Quote to Ponder
    #2016463 - 10/16/03 11:47 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"There should only be charity when it does not increase the need for charity"

Elmer Pendell, Why Civilizations Self-Destruct


I really don't know exactly what he means, any input / thoughts on it?


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: lysergic]
    #2016645 - 10/17/03 12:42 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Food clothing and shelter should be a birthright.

If we had our priorities straight, we'd have enough money to give people what they rightfully deserve.





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Mp3 of the month: BLC - I Don't Wanna Go



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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: Learyfan]
    #2016678 - 10/17/03 12:58 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

What makes you think you deserve anything just because you were born? Who provides it? Where is the motivation?

Damn socialists.


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Be all and you'll be to end all


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2016704 - 10/17/03 01:09 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

We all provide it.

We all participate in it.

We all make sure the others have food to eat and access to health care.

We deserve it because we are humans. We are supposedly the most intelligent form of life on earth. The least we can do is make sure the basics are covered. It's a matter of social evolution, a matter of humanity.

Unlike some, I dont wish to continue living in the neaderthal, knuckle dragging, stone ages.

But most do.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2016720 - 10/17/03 01:20 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

And what about all the people who (as they do now) decide they will take from the system and not contribute to it? Have you solved that delima yet? How do you devide out equal shares of work for equal reciept of the products? Life should be one big welfare system with the government in controle of it. Or will you appoint yourself boss because of you so called enlightened status?

Maybe you just don't wish to continue working for your keep.

Do us unenlightened, knuckle-draggers deserve to be part of your socialist welfare system?


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Be all and you'll be to end all


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Offlinelysergic
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2016743 - 10/17/03 01:39 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Exactly. I am all about supporting people in their time of need, or when they are down on their luck, but people that make a living out of living on welfare, and don't attempt to find a job, why should we who do decide to work support them?

I think that presenting people with a choice of

1) Work - Put in 40+ hours a week at a job you most likely won't like. For this you'll get paid, get health insurance, and a retirement plan (usually) A portion of the money you labor for will be given to welfare recipients.

2) Sit on your ass - For this, you'll get paid, get food stamps, and get health insurance. Retirment package, ya don't get, but who cares, you'll continue to get free money.

what is the motivation to choose #1 over #2


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


Edited by lysergic (10/17/03 01:45 AM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: Learyfan]
    #2017114 - 10/17/03 05:29 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Food clothing and shelter should be a birthright.

If we had our priorities straight, we'd have enough money to give people what they rightfully deserve.




Ridiculous.

If you don't work, you should get nothing other than what charity provides for you.

It's not my responsibility to help provide for those too stupid to do so on their own.

If some have no wish to provide for themselves let them go hungry, naked, and sleep in a box.

If you personally wish to do so, give away as much of your cash as you wish, but the government has no right to steal from me to give to lazy fucks.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2017590 - 10/17/03 12:06 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: silversoul7]
    #2017634 - 10/17/03 12:26 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

life does not imply handouts.

sorry.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: afoaf]
    #2017666 - 10/17/03 12:45 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

The way I see it, the right life includes the bare essentials of life.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: silversoul7]
    #2017718 - 10/17/03 01:19 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

ensuring that all people have the basic essentials for survival will not decrease their incentive to work harder and be more upwardly mobile.

Like the car I drive right now is a Dodge Neon. My parents paid for that car. Actually, I pay 1/3 of the payment/insurance every month, but even if they paid for the whole thing, it would not decrease my motivation to work hard and get a better car.

I mean, dodge neon is kind of the lowest car on the totem pole. I see people driving much nicer cars. I hope to someday own a nicer car, but I realize i will have to work and make money to get it. My parents are nice enough to give me what I need, but they arent going to treat my like a king when I don't deserve it!

In the meantime, I have a car to get me from work to school. This will help me accquire the skills and basic means to better my position in life, and someday own a BMW, or whatever.

Some poor bastard who didnt get a free car from his parents will be hard pressed to overcome this weakness. In order to afford the same car I have, he might have to get a full-time job and not go to college.

Lacking the basic essentials makes upward mobility an unnattainable goal. Where is the incentive, then?


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peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleStarter
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: lysergic]
    #2017840 - 10/17/03 02:12 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I think as soon as people accept the fact that we're part of nature and are therefore governed by the physics of life and not idealism, then they'll understand that there's no such thing as a free lunch.

Seriously, I'm surprised people who grow/garden can't see that.

Put simply, nature ensures that there's no waste and that every calorie is contested from the bottom of the food chain to the top and back again in a continuous cycle. If you don't hunt (work) you starve and die. That is the order of life. No free loaders in nature, the weak and stupid are purged and recycled. Even the parasites have to fight the immune systems of the hosts they attack. No easy cheques at the welfare office, if ya know what I'm saying.

You see, this has always been my problem with the left, they're ideologically anti-nature as they believe in supporting dead wood. As for the right, they want to chop it down and dig it up to sell without thought of sustainability. Both fail the laws of life.


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Convert Metric and Imperial.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: Starter]
    #2017860 - 10/17/03 02:21 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

What makes us human is the fact that we take care of the sickly, elderly, and others who are unable to take care of themselves. This goes back far beyond modern society. Even the Neanderthals took care of those unable to care for themselves. Besides, the majority of people on welfare do not stay that way. Most of them are not "freeloaders," but rather people who have fallen on hard times and have no one else to support them. Most of them do eventually find jobs. Of course, there will always be freeloaders, and not all of them are on welfare(some of them just live with their parents until they're 45). They are just a part of society that we have to deal with. We have to deal with them in order to help those who have genuine problems.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleStarter
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: silversoul7]
    #2017879 - 10/17/03 02:33 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I'll stick with the laws of nature. She hasn't been wrong since the primordial soup. What you speak of is team play, common too in many organisms. It has its place, provided it is good for the whole.


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Convert Metric and Imperial.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: Starter]
    #2017882 - 10/17/03 02:35 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I'm saying it's part of HUMAN NATURE to take care of our own.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleStarter
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: silversoul7]
    #2017910 - 10/17/03 02:45 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I'm saying it's part of HUMAN NATURE to take care of our own.




I agree, but the our is our, as in immediate familial unit.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: Starter]
    #2017966 - 10/17/03 03:08 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

That might be true if we were still hunter-gatherers, but we live in a thing called "civilization," and so we have an extended, societal "family" to take care of as well.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: Starter]
    #2017997 - 10/17/03 03:19 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

The bare essentials should be provided to EVERYONE. It has nothing to do with being "enlightened".

If we didn't waste our money on stupid shit, i.e. the WOD, the Bush wars and the presidents $400 haircuts we would have more than enough to take care of our brothers.

MOST people would not be satisfied with only the bare essentials, and then would contribute.




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Mp3 of the month: BLC - I Don't Wanna Go



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: silversoul7]
    #2018204 - 10/17/03 04:56 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
The way I see it, the right life includes the bare essentials of life.



So then you help them.

I help those near to me and to be blunt.... fuck the rest.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A Quote to Ponder [Re: Starter]
    #2018209 - 10/17/03 04:57 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Nicely put Starter.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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