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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
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Quote:
PocketRevolution said: A bit off topic.
I once tried using coir unheated. Just hydrated it and added spawn. It colonized in a ridiculously short time. Then it did nothing. It just sat there while the heat-treated coir, (spawned later) eventually caught up, and then fruited. For a short while, I thought the speedy colonization was going to be revolutionary. Then it completely refused to fruit.
Can't explain the science, but heat treatment is necessary.
MS or isolate?
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Stromrider
This must be the place



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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: PussyFart]
#19215796 - 12/02/13 03:25 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I seriously doubt that the lack of heating the coir had anything to do with the tub not fruiting
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Kizzle
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Stromrider]
#19215856 - 12/02/13 04:08 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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You were probably growing mold.
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jpack666



Registered: 10/01/13
Posts: 484
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I might be off topic or bringing back to life an outdated thread but my 2 cents I wanted to add was that it sounds like the bucket tek for coir is worth trying and experimenting with but if I had to do just one tray in my life and didn't have a practice run at it, I think I'd just stick to my most precious guideline: PC everything for 1h, let cool for 24.
And one day, I'll probably end up trying a bucket tek and see how it goes...
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cronicr



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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: jpack666] 1
#20061528 - 05/30/14 03:23 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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i can't believe i just read all that i just finished up a little experiment, i did four methods for coir(nothing else just coir) 1)simply hydrted 2)bucket tek 3)sterilized 4)pasturized i sat these in totes like this
 i just left the lids slightly off center and misted a couple times here and there and put the lid on at night
 givet hem some light some nice dirty air coming in cough on them once in awhile while i hotknifed and 3.5 nonths later not one of the four had contaminated at all, i mixed it all up and sterilized everything and used it with no problems on a delicate species in semilaceata which colonized fine in open air, sat for another two weeks colonizing and were at six weeks after that and still kicking!
 so my stance is prep your coir however you want just use clean spawn, the main idea is to cook your coir to make it easier for mycelium to digest, coir withoput myceliumis very contam resistent but once even clean spawn has colonized it it should be treated as any other sub though and get proper fruiting conditions with lots of fresh air to help prevent molds
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: cronicr]
#20062038 - 05/30/14 05:29 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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jpack666 , this thread may be a little old, but I don't think it's outdated yet. I created it so we could have a single thread dedicated to the subject.
I'm glad it gets rediscovered. There's a lot of good info. When ever I see a question on the subject, I simply post a link.
cronicr, nice experiment.
I've left CVG with boiling water in a bucket and it got mold in about 6 weeks. I've also left properly pasteurized CVG in jars with filters and got cobweb in about 7 days.
I still agree that contams before the first flush with CVG is likely your spawn, but it's not absolute. Proper pasteurization is a good place to start troubleshooting.
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Pastywhyte
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Registered: 09/15/12
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Loc: Canada
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#20062386 - 05/30/14 07:30 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Wow I can't believe I missed this the first time around...
For me it comes down to two questions.
First if bucket tek is responsible for fail due to partial sterilization, why does full sterilization work so well? I have sterilized 50 some odd subs and the only pre first flush contam was definitively traced back to the spawn.
Second and more important is the lack of thermophyllic bacteria being present in the sub in the first place. Without it pasteurization is pretty much ineffective. If there is no bacteria to keep alive, why are we keeping our temps low to keep the bacteria alive?
My only pre first flush contam so far this year was on a properly pasteurized sub 
BTW nice experiment cron
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MudaFuka
Poppin bottles



Registered: 12/14/13
Posts: 18,648
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Pastywhyte]
#20062622 - 05/30/14 08:47 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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I recently did a modified bucket tek on a few subs containing coir, manure, humus and verm and they are all free of contams going into third and fourth flushes. I Had a few pan subs trich out last week and they were all properly pasteurised.
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jpack666



Registered: 10/01/13
Posts: 484
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Pastywhyte]
#20062816 - 05/30/14 09:48 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Second and more important is the lack of thermophyllic bacteria being present in the sub in the first place. Without it pasteurization is pretty much ineffective. If there is no bacteria to keep alive, why are we keeping our temps low to keep the bacteria alive?
1000000$ question! I didn't know about this, thanks PW
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MastaBlastar
Ruler Of Barter Town


Registered: 04/06/13
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: jpack666]
#20092974 - 06/06/14 01:48 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
jpack666 said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Second and more important is the lack of thermophyllic bacteria being present in the sub in the first place. Without it pasteurization is pretty much ineffective. If there is no bacteria to keep alive, why are we keeping our temps low to keep the bacteria alive?
1000000$ question! I didn't know about this, thanks PW
It is too there. It comes off your hands, off the vermiculite, and off the gypsum. It IS in the coir, you cannot crush bacteria, well maybe but some are going to survive regardless and thousands of types. Give some of those types the right conditions and they could grow, weakening any mycelium on them allowing mold spores in the air to colonize. Unless you are fruiting in a clean room which would defeat the purpose of pasteurizing and open air fruiting, there are going to be a shitload of mold spores present as well as airborn bacteria. Bacteria and mold is is on EVERYTHING unless it has been sterilized.
-------------------- Everything I have said, may say, will say, am thinking about saying and/or thinking/typing/dreaming/writing is in all likelyhood made up and has no factual basis in reality whatsoever, and is likely all plagiarized and copy pasted straight from someone else, so get mad at them . Just a warning
Edited by MastaBlastar (06/06/14 01:51 PM)
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jpack666



Registered: 10/01/13
Posts: 484
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: MastaBlastar]
#20093065 - 06/06/14 02:20 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
MastaBlastar said:
Quote:
jpack666 said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Second and more important is the lack of thermophyllic bacteria being present in the sub in the first place. Without it pasteurization is pretty much ineffective. If there is no bacteria to keep alive, why are we keeping our temps low to keep the bacteria alive?
1000000$ question! I didn't know about this, thanks PW
It is too there. It comes off your hands, off the vermiculite, and off the gypsum. It IS in the coir, you cannot crush bacteria, well maybe but some are going to survive regardless and thousands of types. Give some of those types the right conditions and they could grow, weakening any mycelium on them allowing mold spores in the air to colonize. Unless you are fruiting in a clean room which would defeat the purpose of pasteurizing and open air fruiting, there are going to be a shitload of mold spores present as well as airborn bacteria. Bacteria and mold is is on EVERYTHING unless it has been sterilized.
From the archives: The beneficial microorganisms(mainly bacteria)that are left alive when pasteurizing, guard the substrate against other contaminants, for instance different molds, but don't affect the growth of mushroom mycelium. Pasteurization is used for bulk substrates like straw, dung and composts and wood chips, also casings, and sterilization for all high nutritious substrates, like different grains.
I think PW is saying that coir doesn't contain a lot of the particular type of bacteria that "guard the substrate against other contaminants, for instance different molds, but don't affect the growth of mushroom mycelium." But what you are saying is that all bacteria is bad so I don't know if you are right... The point of pasturization is not to kill all bacteria, it is to kill the bad ones without killing too much of the nutrients. Where a very high nutritious sub is used, perhaps coir is one of them, you'll have plenty of nutrients left after PC and no need to keep the temps lower to avoid killing the nutrients. Although that being said, pasturization would never make the sub worse IMO but perhaps the idea is just that it doesn't make much difference with coir. And if PW is correct in saying that coir lacks the mold-guarding bacteria in comparison with hpoo or straw, that would make his point, although I don't know enoug about bacteria to be sure. Hence: my 1000000$ question
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MastaBlastar
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: jpack666]
#20093169 - 06/06/14 02:54 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
jpack666 said:
Quote:
MastaBlastar said:
Quote:
jpack666 said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Second and more important is the lack of thermophyllic bacteria being present in the sub in the first place. Without it pasteurization is pretty much ineffective. If there is no bacteria to keep alive, why are we keeping our temps low to keep the bacteria alive?
1000000$ question! I didn't know about this, thanks PW
It is too there. It comes off your hands, off the vermiculite, and off the gypsum. It IS in the coir, you cannot crush bacteria, well maybe but some are going to survive regardless and thousands of types. Give some of those types the right conditions and they could grow, weakening any mycelium on them allowing mold spores in the air to colonize. Unless you are fruiting in a clean room which would defeat the purpose of pasteurizing and open air fruiting, there are going to be a shitload of mold spores present as well as airborn bacteria. Bacteria and mold is is on EVERYTHING unless it has been sterilized.
From the archives: The beneficial microorganisms(mainly bacteria)that are left alive when pasteurizing, guard the substrate against other contaminants, for instance different molds, but don't affect the growth of mushroom mycelium. Pasteurization is used for bulk substrates like straw, dung and composts and wood chips, also casings, and sterilization for all high nutritious substrates, like different grains.
I think PW is saying that coir doesn't contain a lot of the particular type of bacteria that "guard the substrate against other contaminants, for instance different molds, but don't affect the growth of mushroom mycelium." But what you are saying is that all bacteria is bad so I don't know if you are right... The point of pasturization is not to kill all bacteria, it is to kill the bad ones without killing too much of the nutrients. Where a very high nutritious sub is used, perhaps coir is one of them, you'll have plenty of nutrients left after PC and no need to keep the temps lower to avoid killing the nutrients. Although that being said, pasturization would never make the sub worse IMO but perhaps the idea is just that it doesn't make much difference with coir. And if PW is correct in saying that coir lacks the mold-guarding bacteria in comparison with hpoo or straw, that would make his point, although I don't know enoug about bacteria to be sure. Hence: my 1000000$ question 
I never said anything about good or bad, just that it is all present, because it is.
-------------------- Everything I have said, may say, will say, am thinking about saying and/or thinking/typing/dreaming/writing is in all likelyhood made up and has no factual basis in reality whatsoever, and is likely all plagiarized and copy pasted straight from someone else, so get mad at them . Just a warning
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: MastaBlastar]
#20093185 - 06/06/14 02:58 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
MastaBlastar said:
Quote:
jpack666 said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Second and more important is the lack of thermophyllic bacteria being present in the sub in the first place. Without it pasteurization is pretty much ineffective. If there is no bacteria to keep alive, why are we keeping our temps low to keep the bacteria alive?
1000000$ question! I didn't know about this, thanks PW
It is too there. It comes off your hands, off the vermiculite, and off the gypsum. It IS in the coir, you cannot crush bacteria, well maybe but some are going to survive regardless and thousands of types. Give some of those types the right conditions and they could grow, weakening any mycelium on them allowing mold spores in the air to colonize. Unless you are fruiting in a clean room which would defeat the purpose of pasteurizing and open air fruiting, there are going to be a shitload of mold spores present as well as airborn bacteria. Bacteria and mold is is on EVERYTHING unless it has been sterilized.
your talking a sifferent process all together though, things like h-manure go through a process as they age in the field like fire flang and it isn't as simple as bacteria landing on the sub, bottom line straw and manure subs have a whack more of a microbial count then coir will
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: cronicr]
#20093785 - 06/06/14 05:23 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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The high temperatures used to process coir for packaging kills pretty much anything in it.
Any microbes that are on it by the time you get it, have been likely picked up during travel.
I doubt the contaminate load is very high and whatever is there is not likely to grow once you get it wet because not many things can germinate on it.
I'm starting to think CVG does not benefit from proper pasteurization. But, because there's no telling what's on it, I think it best to do something to kill as much shit as you can with heat.
Maybe the key to the bucket tek is to keep the heat up to 140F or above for an hour or more just to kill shit and it doesn't matter how high above 140F you get. At least at 140F you know you're killing shit. 140F is certainly debatable.
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MastaBlastar
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: SpitballJedi]
#20096158 - 06/07/14 12:16 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Running a test with 4+ tubs each of cold water, bucket tek, proper pasteurization, sterilization I think would be the way to figure it out. Once I get my flow hood this might be my first test. http://www.slideshare.net/jchau/coconut-coir-processing
From what I can tell there is no heat used other than the sun in processing so there would be LOADS of endospores on the coir, everything you could imagine as these are not sterile or even remotely clean places its made from the looks of it. They just dry out coconut husks, run them thru a big chipper machine and then load it into a press, all in the open air. Maybe other companies use heat, maybe a kiln to dry them, but I cannot see how that would help the process and would use large amounts of power. Even then, they would be open and exposed in open environments that again are not clean.
Maybe i am wrong, we need a coir expert, but proper pasteurization works for me and is a set and forget process that takes less time than the bucket. I set my little 1300 watt remote burner to 1 and that makes the water stay at 165 exactly, it is amazingly convenient. All I have to do is hydrate and mix, load a bag with a probe in it, turn it on and walk away. The probe notifies me wirelessly when it hits 140, I go check different areas making sure the whole thing is 140 and then set my timer. but that's me, I honestly think it comes down to just what works for you and clearly both methods work.
-------------------- Everything I have said, may say, will say, am thinking about saying and/or thinking/typing/dreaming/writing is in all likelyhood made up and has no factual basis in reality whatsoever, and is likely all plagiarized and copy pasted straight from someone else, so get mad at them . Just a warning
Edited by MastaBlastar (06/07/14 12:28 PM)
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: MastaBlastar]
#20096818 - 06/07/14 03:47 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
It is too there. It comes off your hands, off the vermiculite, and off the gypsum. It IS in the coir, you cannot crush bacteria, well maybe but some are going to survive regardless and thousands of types. Give some of those types the right conditions and they could grow, weakening any mycelium on them allowing mold spores in the air to colonize.
Of course but there's a difference between bacteria landing on a substrate and dying and bacteria colonizing a substrate. Endospores don't colonize. Mold spores don't colonize. For that to happen they need to germinate and that requires a food source which coir is not to something like a spore or endospore which has almost no metabolism.
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MastaBlastar
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
#20100442 - 06/08/14 12:45 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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The bacteria is always present in the coconut husks and is not removed before or during processing. Endospores DO colonize when they wake up again, that is what they do. Al they really need is water, espeecially the bacteria. Maybe there is something i am missing with the processing of coir, but coir should be full of microorganisms and need a heat treatment of some type to get them to numbers that allow the mycelium we want to have the best chance.
-------------------- Everything I have said, may say, will say, am thinking about saying and/or thinking/typing/dreaming/writing is in all likelyhood made up and has no factual basis in reality whatsoever, and is likely all plagiarized and copy pasted straight from someone else, so get mad at them . Just a warning
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Kizzle]
#20100490 - 06/08/14 12:57 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
MastaBlastar said: The bacteria is always present in the coconut husks and is not removed before or during processing. Endospores DO colonize when they wake up again, that is what they do. Al they really need is water, espeecially the bacteria. Maybe there is something i am missing with the processing of coir, but coir should be full of microorganisms and need a heat treatment of some type to get them to numbers that allow the mycelium we want to have the best chance.
not really, it's pressed at high pressure and we heat treat for the mycelium to be able to digest the coir not microbial number control,this is also y coir is the only sub you wanna heat treat for outdoor purposes
Quote:
Kizzle said:
Quote:
It is too there. It comes off your hands, off the vermiculite, and off the gypsum. It IS in the coir, you cannot crush bacteria, well maybe but some are going to survive regardless and thousands of types. Give some of those types the right conditions and they could grow, weakening any mycelium on them allowing mold spores in the air to colonize.
Of course but there's a difference between bacteria landing on a substrate and dying and bacteria colonizing a substrate. Endospores don't colonize. Mold spores don't colonize. For that to happen they need to germinate and that requires a food source which coir is not to something like a spore or endospore which has almost no metabolism.
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,811
Loc: Canada
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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: cronicr]
#20100603 - 06/08/14 01:31 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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Read up on how much heat is generated by those presses. I saw one being advertised as generating in excess of 800C from the pressure. Maybe that is embellished by the manufacturer but I doubt much could survive even half that temp for very long.
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



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Re: Bucket Tek vs Pasteurization Thread [Re: Pastywhyte]
#20100652 - 06/08/14 01:44 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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I've done a little research and have not yet found any specifics on how much heat is used to make bricks.
But, I did find this Wikipedia excerpt in "Uses" interesting:
Quote:
In horticulture, coir is a substitute for sphagnum moss because it is free of bacteria and fungal spores. Coir is also useful to deter snails from delicate plantings, and as a growing medium in intensive glasshouse (greenhouse) horticulture.[citation needed]
Coconut coir from Mexico has been found to contain large numbers of colonies of the beneficial fungus Aspergillus terreus, which acts as a biological control against plant pathogenic fungi.[6]
Coir is also used as a substrate to grow mushrooms. The coir is usually mixed with vermiculite and pasteurized with boiling water. After the coir/vermiculite mix has cooled to room temperature, it is placed in a larger container, usually a plastic box. Previously prepared spawn jars are then added, spawn is usually grown in jars using substrates such as rye grains or wild bird seed. This spawn is the mushrooms mycelium and will colonize the coir/vermiculite mix eventually fruiting mushrooms.
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