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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Colombus, Pizarro & Hernandez likened to Hitler
    #2001914 - 10/12/03 06:21 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

No Cheers for Columbus, Says Venezuela's Chavez
Sat Oct 11, 4:21 PM ET Add World - Reuters to My Yahoo!



CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez urged Latin Americans on Saturday not to celebrate Columbus Day, saying the 1492 discovery of the Americas triggered a 150-year "genocide" of native Indians by foreign conquerors who behaved "worse than Hitler."


Reuters Photo


Related Links
? Today in History: Columbus Day (loc.gov)



"Christopher Columbus was the spearhead of the biggest invasion and genocide ever seen in the history of humanity," the populist president told a meeting in Caracas of representatives of Indian peoples from across the continent.


Columbus Day on Oct. 12 is celebrated as a holiday in the United States and several Latin American nations, but Chavez said it should be remembered as the "Day of Indian Resistance."


"We Venezuelans, we Latin Americans, have no reason to honor Columbus," he added.


The Venezuelan leader said Spanish, Portuguese and other foreign conquerors had massacred South America's Indian inhabitants at an average rate of roughly "one every 10 minutes." He described Spanish conquistadors like Hernan Cortes and Francisco Pizarro, as "worse than Hitler."


He said even the continent's geographical names, like America and Venezuela, were imposed by foreigners.


Chavez's opponents, who are seeking a referendum to try to vote him out of office, say his self-styled "revolution" in the world's No. 5 oil exporter is aimed at installing an anti-U.S. communist system like the one in Cuba. Chavez says his brand of left-wing nationalism will make Venezuela more independent.


The Venezuelan leader hailed as heroes Indian chiefs who had fought against the invaders, such as Guaicaipuro who resisted the Spanish founders of Caracas, and American Indian chief Sitting Bull, who defeated U.S. Gen. George Armstrong Custer at the Battle of Little Bighorn in 1876.


"Long live Sitting Bull!" Chavez declared, drawing applause from his audience, many of whom wore traditional native clothes and head-dresses.

SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

mjshroomer


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: Colombus, Pizarro & Hernandez likened to Hitler [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2002104 - 10/12/03 10:05 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

fucking cool


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Colombus, Pizarro & Hernandez likened to Hitler [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2002121 - 10/12/03 10:22 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Fucking pathetic.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Colombus, Pizarro & Hernandez likened to Hitler [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2002614 - 10/12/03 04:17 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Chavez is one of the few interesting politicians alive right now.

I saw an amazing documentary on "The Passionate Eye" that showed the attempted overthrow of Chavez. That guy is a real leader with balls.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Colombus, Pizarro & Hernandez likened to Hitler [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2002761 - 10/12/03 05:30 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

What part of that was pathetic?


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Colombus, Pizarro & Hernandez likened to Hitler [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2002842 - 10/12/03 05:58 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

i AM REALLY SURPRISED THAT THIS POST TOOK FOUR HOURS ALMOST FOR SOMEONE TO RESPOND TO IT.

hOWEVER WEIRD THIS MIGHT SOUND, THIS MAN FROM vENUZUALA IS CORRECT IN HIS STATEMENTR.
lONG lIVE sITTING bULL, ALLRIGHT HE IS NOW KNONW AS GRAVEYARD BILL.

MJ

hE WAS THE REAL HERO AND cHIEF cRAZY hORSE OF THE BTTLE OF THE LITTLE bIG HORN.
fUCKING STUPID cAPIRTAL LETTER KEY.

MJ



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Colombus, Pizarro & Hernandez likened to Hitler [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2002870 - 10/12/03 06:11 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

PLEASE STOP YELLING. WE CAN HEAR YOU JUST FINE. kthanx


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlined33p
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Re: Colombus, Pizarro & Hernandez likened to Hitler [Re: pattern]
    #2003613 - 10/12/03 11:11 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

pattern said:
Chavez is one of the few interesting politicians alive right now.

I saw an amazing documentary on "The Passionate Eye" that showed the attempted overthrow of Chavez. That guy is a real leader with balls.




Yep basically he took power, lied through much of his term then right before he would lose power he changed the constitution so he could stay other term, more bs and then he chnaged the constitution yet again so he could say in power 20 years. Then he said what the hell and he changed the constitution so he could stay in power for life. Then the staged coup occured, some people died and now hes where hes at now.

He doesnt have the best intrests of his people at mind. It was better back in the day when my dad was friends with the presidents son and the place was still respectable.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Colombus, Pizarro & Hernandez likened to Hitler [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2004125 - 10/13/03 01:52 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Chavez's opponents, who are seeking a referendum to try to vote him out of office, say his self-styled "revolution" in the world's No. 5 oil exporter is aimed at installing an anti-U.S. communist system like the one in Cuba. Chavez says his brand of left-wing nationalism will make Venezuela more independent.

Funny how they have to say "anti-US". What does it have to do with the US what government they have?


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Colombus, Pizarro & Hernandez likened to Hitler [Re: d33p]
    #2004359 - 10/13/03 03:23 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Yep basically he took power, lied through much of his term then right before he would lose power he changed the constitution so he could stay other term, more bs and then he chnaged the constitution yet again so he could say in power 20 years. Then he said what the hell and he changed the constitution so he could stay in power for life. Then the staged coup occured, some people died and now hes where hes at now.




Chavez was elected in 1998 and 2002, and hasnt been in power for 20 years. 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1925236.stm
The political alternatives in Venezuala are far worse than Chavez, in my opinion. The biggest problem with Chavez is he cant get the strikes under control.

Quote:

He doesnt have the best intrests of his people at mind. It was better back in the day when my dad was friends with the presidents son and the place was still respectable.




Which people are you talking about?  The Venezualan rich or the masses?  I like Chavez because he isn't a whore for the rich.  His vision is to redistribute the oil wealth to the poor. 

I love it how the upper class whine about Chavez.  Makes me laugh.  :lol:

Some more links:
http://www.cbc.ca/passionateeyesunday/feature_130403.html
http://www.deeperwants.com/cul1/homeworlds/journal/archives/001497.html
http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2003/09/17062.php
http://forums.techguy.org/t168026/s8ad7097f9c15f1b8226f3ace981f185d.html

Quote:

The poor of Venezuela, the vast majority of the population, love Chavez because he is bringing them not only democracy, but also a chance to access the country's vast natural wealth. For example, as last Sunday's Star revealed, Chavez's land reform laws, which are redistributing 2 million hectares of idle, state-owned property to poor families, are upsetting the wealthy ?lite who, as in many Latin American states, have long exploited the campesinos. And so they are exercising their economic might to bring Chavez down.




If you get a chance watch that documentary, highly recommended, and very entertaining.   


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Colombus, Pizarro & Hernandez likened to Hitler [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2004501 - 10/13/03 05:44 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Another perspective:

Columbus' Critics Blamed for Pointing Fingers at Whites
By Marc Morano
CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer
October 13, 2003

(CNSNews.com) - - On the day set aside to honor the famed explorer of the West Indies, Christopher Columbus is also the subject of protests across the country. But cultural critic David Horowitz has rallied to Columbus' defense.

Protesters who "only point fingers at white people" and allege that Columbus sparked the genocide of millions of Indians, ignore the fact that native populations visited by Columbus conducted their own forms of genocide.

Anti-Columbus demonstrations involve "the same people that celebrate Fidel Castro, Ho Chi Min, Chairman Mao and so forth," Horowitz told CNSNews.com . "And [they] are defending Saddam Hussein. This is ridiculous."

Horowitz is a former 1960s radical-turned-conservative and co-founder of the Los Angeles-based Center for the Study of the Popular Culture.

"It's easy to go throughout history and point fingers at people, but of course they only point fingers at white people," Horowitz said, referring to the anti-Columbus crowd.

Columbus' detractors have a selective view of history, according to Horowitz.

"These Indians were genocidal murderers. When do they protest the Aztec murders of virgins? They used to kill 80,000 virgins a year," Horowitz said.

Anti-Columbus protests were held recently on the campus of New York's Cornell University with students accusing the 15th century explorer of being responsible for the murder of more than 12 million Indians and participating in the Caribbean slave trade.

"Without taking a look at our human history, genocide could happen again," said Jason Corwin, media assistant for Cornell's film program, according to the student newspaper The Cornell Daily Sun .

Lloyd Elm, an American Indian studies professor at Cornell University, reportedly told the anti-Columbus rally that "traditional American schools sanitize information" and many students are led to believe that "the history of this great, great, country began in 1492."

The city of Denver, Colo., reportedly spent more than $100,000 on barricades and police overtime pay to prepare for any problems related to activities surrounding Columbus Day.

Horowitz conceded that European explorers of Columbus' time "were probably not too nice of people," but urged would-be protesters of Columbus Day to consider the historical context.

"White men gave to the Indians smallpox, the Indians gave us syphilis," Horowitz said, referring to an issue, the origin of syphilis, that many people still consider a historical dispute. You want to blame the Indians for all the deaths from syphilis in Europe for hundreds of years? I don't think so. You shouldn't blame these colonizers either," Horowitz said.

"It's racism and on the part of the whites, it's self-hatred taken to absurd heights," he added.

David Yeagley, an adjunct professor at Oklahoma University and a Comanche Indian, runs a website that bills itself as "the only voice of conservative American Indian thought." He called the anti-Columbus demonstrators "naive."

"If [the protestors] are trying to be historically accurate they would have to have a completely different message and that includes the history of Indians themselves -- the way we fought against each other with territorial disputes," Yeagley told CNSNews.com.

"I don't have a peacenik image of the American Indian. That is not my people and that is not the true history of Indian people in this country," Yeagley explained.

Yeagley's biggest concern, however, is the psychological impact that Christopher Columbus' critics are having on American Indians.

"It inhibits any Indian person, particularly any American Indian person, from starting out in life with a positive attitude. It puts you on the negative; it is the 'I have been wronged approach to life' even as you are born," Yeagley said.

American Indian youth may be the most vulnerable demographic in terms of accepting the idea that they are victims, according to Yeagley.

"I think that is just crippling to any kind of natural aspirations to young people. This is the most damaging thing that Indians can do to ourselves," he said.



Link


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Colombus, Pizarro & Hernandez likened to Hitler [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2004597 - 10/13/03 07:58 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Protesters who "only point fingers at white people" and allege that Columbus sparked the genocide of millions of Indians, ignore the fact that native populations visited by Columbus conducted their own forms of genocide.





I dont really see what this has go to do with anything. The point is people are protesting the fact that there is a celebration for someone who was indirectly responsible for the deaths of millions of natives. I tend to agree. You cant change the past but that doesnt mean you have to glorify what was a fairly nasty affair.

Quote:

"It's easy to go throughout history and point fingers at people, but of course they only point fingers at white people," Horowitz said, referring to the anti-Columbus crowd.





Surely, as white people we should be aware of our own transgressions against other races first? Besides can you give me a few examples where millions of whites have died at the hands of other races?

Quote:

"These Indians were genocidal murderers. When do they protest the Aztec murders of virgins? They used to kill 80,000 virgins a year," Horowitz said.





That is an unfortubate side of their past. But that was their culture, right or wrong. They were not killing other races and plundering their resources. There is a big difference. And once again, no one is celebtating this piece of history so what exactly would there be to protest?

Quote:

You want to blame the Indians for all the deaths from syphilis in Europe for hundreds of years? I don't think so. You shouldn't blame these colonizers either," Horowitz said.






That statement is beyond stupid.

Quote:

Yeagley's biggest concern, however, is the psychological impact that Christopher Columbus' critics are having on American Indians.

"It inhibits any Indian person, particularly any American Indian person, from starting out in life with a positive attitude. It puts you on the negative; it is the 'I have been wronged approach to life' even as you are born," Yeagley said.





I agree, but I dont see how celebrating Christopher Columbus would actually help young American Indian's self esteem.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Colombus, Pizarro & Hernandez likened to Hitler [Re: GazzBut]
    #2005703 - 10/13/03 05:26 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The point is people are protesting the fact that there is a celebration for someone who was indirectly responsible for the deaths of millions of natives.



First, I question "millions".
That's just silly. You may as well blame anyone who makes a discovery as being indirectly responsible for future acts. Did he sit around chewing the fat with the Queen....
Co: gosh Queen, I'm off in search of lands where we can cause the deaths of many.
Q: You go big guy.


Quote:

Surely, as white people we should be aware of our own transgressions against other races first? Besides can you give me a few examples where millions of whites have died at the hands of other races?



Judging by the amount of guilty white guy syndrome sufferers, we are.
As an example, Nazi germany comes to mind.


Quote:

That is an unfortubate side of their past. But that was their culture, right or wrong. They were not killing other races and plundering their resources. There is a big difference. And once again, no one is celebtating this piece of history so what exactly would there be to protest?



Yes, it was their culture, as it was the white mans. They may not have killed other races but there was enough killing of other tribes that it's not much different. And there is nothing worthwile to protest now.


Quote:

That statement is beyond stupid.



Sorry but Horowitz is a pretty smart dude so I'll not pass judgement either way since I don't know.


Quote:

I agree, but I dont see how celebrating Christopher Columbus would actually help young American Indian's self esteem.



Who gives a fuck if it helps them or not. Not every action or event must help everyone equally or at all.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Colombus, Pizarro & Hernandez likened to Hitler [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2005769 - 10/13/03 06:00 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

And yet another perspective:

On Columbus Day, Celebrate Western Civilization, Not Multiculturalism
Michael S. Berliner
Monday, Oct. 13, 2003
Columbus Day this year has a special meaning.
Christopher Columbus is a carrier of Western civilization and the very values attacked by terrorists two years ago on Sept. 11. To the "politically correct," Columbus Day is an occasion to be mourned. They have mourned, they have attacked, and they have intimidated schools across the country into replacing Columbus Day celebrations with "ethnic diversity" days.

The politically correct view is that Columbus did not discover America, because people had lived here for thousands of years. Worse yet, it's claimed, the main legacy of Columbus is death and destruction. Columbus is routinely vilified as a symbol of slavery and genocide, and the celebration of his arrival likened to a celebration of Hitler and the Holocaust. The attacks on Columbus are ominous, because the actual target is Western civilization. Did Columbus "discover" America? Yes, in every important respect.

This does not mean that no human eye had been cast on America before Columbus arrived. It does mean that Columbus brought America to the attention of the civilized world, i.e., to the growing, scientific civilizations of Western Europe.

The result, ultimately, was the United States of America. It was Columbus' discovery for Western Europe that led to the influx of ideas and people on which this nation was founded and on which it still rests.

The opening of America brought the ideas and achievements of Aristotle, Galileo, Newton, and the thousands of thinkers, writers, and inventors who followed.

Prior to 1492, what is now the United States was sparsely inhabited, unused and undeveloped. The inhabitants were primarily hunter-gatherers, wandering across the land, living from hand-to-mouth and from day-to-day. There was virtually no change, no growth for thousands of years. With rare exception, life was nasty, brutish and short: there was no wheel, no written language, no division of labor, little agriculture and scant permanent settlement; but there were endless, bloody wars.

Whatever the problems it brought, the vilified Western culture also brought enormous, undreamed-of benefits, without which most of today's Indians would be infinitely poorer or not even alive.

Columbus should be honored, for in so doing, we honor Western civilization. But the critics do not want to bestow such honor, because their real goal is to denigrate the values of Western civilization and to glorify the primitivism, mysticism and collectivism embodied in the tribal cultures of American Indians.

They decry the glorification of the West as "cultural imperialism" and "Eurocentrism." We should, they claim, replace our reverence for Western civilization with multi-culturalism, which regards all cultures (including vicious tyrannies) as morally equal.

In fact, they aren't. Some cultures are better than others. A free society is better than slavery; reason is better than brute force as a way to deal with other men; productivity is better than stagnation.

In fact, Western civilization stands for man at his best. It stands for the values that make human life possible: reason, science, self-reliance, individualism, ambition, productive achievement. The values of Western civilization are values for all men; they cut across gender, ethnicity and geography.

We should honor Western civilization not for the ethnocentric reason that some of us happen to have European ancestors but because it is the objectively superior culture.

Underlying the political collectivism of the anti-Columbus crowd is a racist view of human nature. They claim that one's identity is primarily ethnic: If one thinks his ancestors were good, he will supposedly feel good about himself; if he thinks his ancestors were bad, he will supposedly feel self-loathing.

But it doesn't work; the achievements or failures of one's ancestors are monumentally irrelevant to one's actual worth as a person. Only the lack of a sense of self leads one to look to others to provide what passes for a sense of identity. Neither the deeds nor misdeeds of others are his own; he can take neither credit nor blame for what someone else chose to do.

There are no racial achievements or racial failures, only individual achievements and individual failures. One cannot inherit moral worth or moral vice. "Self-esteem through others" is a self-contradiction.

Thus the sham of "preserving one's heritage" as a rational life goal. Thus the cruel hoax of "multicultural education" as an antidote to racism: It will continue to create more racism.

Individualism is the only alternative to the racism of political correctness. We must recognize that everyone is a sovereign entity, with the power of choice and independent judgment. That is the ultimate value of Western civilization, and it should be proudly proclaimed.

Dr. Berliner is a member of the Board of Directors of the Ayn Rand Institute (www.aynrand.org) in Irvine, Calif. The institute promotes the philosophy of Ayn Rand, author of "Atlas Shrugged" and "The Fountainhead."


Link


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Re: Colombus, Pizarro & Hernandez likened to Hitler [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2005790 - 10/13/03 06:09 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

that is the most factually inaccurate thing i have ever read about american indians...that man obviously has NO IDEA what he is talking about.


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Religion is for people who are afraid of going to Hell; spirituality is for those who have been there.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Colombus, Pizarro & Hernandez likened to Hitler [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #2005831 - 10/13/03 06:27 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

THANK HEAVEN we have you to set us straight.

:lol:


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Colombus, Pizarro & Hernandez likened to Hitler [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2005865 - 10/13/03 06:39 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

columbus did not discover america. the natives were here thousands of years and the norse hundreds of years before. he's not responsible for the genocide of the natives either though.

this statement:

Prior to 1492, what is now the United States was sparsely inhabited, unused and undeveloped. The inhabitants were primarily hunter-gatherers, wandering across the land, living from hand-to-mouth and from day-to-day. There was virtually no change, no growth for thousands of years. With rare exception, life was nasty, brutish and short: there was no wheel, no written language, no division of labor, little agriculture and scant permanent settlement; but there were endless, bloody wars.

is completely false in almost every respect. native americans were widely practicing agriculture, had extensive trade networks, political organization, written communication, spiritual centers, atronomy, mathematics, cities, and specialization long before columbus landed.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Colombus, Pizarro & Hernandez likened to Hitler [Re: ]
    #2005882 - 10/13/03 06:45 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

native americans were widely practicing agriculture, had extensive trade networks, political organization, written communication, spiritual centers, atronomy, mathematics, cities, and specialization long before columbus landed.

This is true of large sections of Meso-America and South America. It is not (generally) true of the area now known as the United States, which is what Dr. Berliner specifically referred to.

pinky


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Colombus, Pizarro & Hernandez likened to Hitler [Re: Phred]
    #2006006 - 10/13/03 07:45 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Lets face it. The Native Americans were almost completely wiped out from the Europeans. There is no denying that.


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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Re: Colombus, Pizarro & Hernandez likened to Hitler [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2006034 - 10/13/03 07:54 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Just as mushmaster said the aztecs and other meso american civilizations were very highly advanced cultures who in some cases, such as astromomy and mathematics, were far more advanced than europeans were at the time. The had a very rich and prosperous culture.

When the conquistadors came to america they destroyed these civilizations. They destroyed huge cities, forced people to convert to christianity(under threat of death), forbid the indians to write in their native languages, and basically systematically destroyed their entire culture. Every statue, piece of art, relgious artifact, and historic document that the spanish could get their hands on was burned, dynamited, or buried in the ground. Not to mention the fact that they slaughtered thousands if not millions of indians.

Anyway the point is columbus discovered the continent and that opened the door for conquistadors and other similar types of people who basically erased HUGE chunks of the indians culture forever.

So i can see why indians wouldn't want to celebrate columbus as some sort of hero.

It'd be like if some alien explorer discovered earth and then armies of aliens came to earth and killed nine tenths of the human population, destroyed nearly every aspect of our religion, writing, science, and basically tryed to erase our culture, would you want to celebrate the day the aliens came and call it alien day? I seriously doubt it. I sure as hell wouldn't.








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Religion is for people who are afraid of going to Hell; spirituality is for those who have been there.


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