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MonkeyJesusFresco
am i suspended in agar?



Registered: 10/09/12
Posts: 3,306
Loc: South East USA
Last seen: 4 days, 7 hours
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Re: Tetraploid shrooms? [Re: fastfred]
#19850878 - 04/15/14 08:19 PM (9 years, 10 months ago) |
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Okay, I'll bite.
here is a list of things I can get:
a 40x-2000x microscope (w/camera)
Giemsa stain
living culture
...now what?
I don't even know what to google :/
...I don't even know what I'm asking!
edit:
okay, this: Karyotype analyses
I wanna do that!
-------------------- LAGM v 2.024 - endo cabendo
Edited by MonkeyJesusFresco (04/15/14 08:20 PM)
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WillSolvem
Odd-Hand




Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1,519
Loc: Chapter 26
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Log in to view attachment
Start here brother
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AMU Q&A Thread because questions deserve answers.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,890
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Tetraploid shrooms? [Re: WillSolvem]
#19856825 - 04/16/14 09:41 PM (9 years, 10 months ago) |
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MonkeyJesusFresco
am i suspended in agar?



Registered: 10/09/12
Posts: 3,306
Loc: South East USA
Last seen: 4 days, 7 hours
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Re: Tetraploid shrooms? [Re: WillSolvem]
#19862108 - 04/17/14 08:28 PM (9 years, 10 months ago) |
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Thanks!
-------------------- LAGM v 2.024 - endo cabendo
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grasshopperwilkins
Triked



Registered: 04/29/14
Posts: 14
Loc: here...sometimes
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
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hw do i agree with rodger 4 months 21 days ago?
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piratez
Unflamable

Registered: 04/21/14
Posts: 209
Loc: i dont knoe
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I don't get it. has never been done before?
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spore baby



Registered: 07/30/13
Posts: 4,918
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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.
Edited by spore baby (12/13/14 04:07 AM)
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Feelers
Anti-Myth-Rhythm-Rock-Shocker



Registered: 06/18/02
Posts: 1,806
Loc: Land of Oz
Last seen: 5 years, 9 months
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I was looking for the genome length and the Fungi DNA database is pretty empty. Do we even know how many chromosomes P cubensis has?
There isn't much to go on.
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spore baby



Registered: 07/30/13
Posts: 4,918
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Re: Tetraploid shrooms? [Re: Feelers]
#20007692 - 05/18/14 11:09 PM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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.
Edited by spore baby (12/13/14 04:07 AM)
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g3n3h4x0r
Fungal Geneticist

Registered: 09/29/13
Posts: 73
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
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I was reading through this thread and it's misleading in every way.
------------------------------------------------------------------- Plants:
Triploid cannabis solely exists because the plant in a triploid state is sterile. Interestingly, it also produces strictly female flowers since they are 'default' This creates the bud covered plants we love. There are many ways to do this and it usually involves chemical treatment of the seed.
- There are 'feminized' plants as well, but this is a breeding process.
- Stop making claims about a plant we know so little about (although that's changing). I'm sure tetraploid marijuana strains exist, but evolution is ROBUST. These plants usually have other problems or are more difficult to raise. In the era where we can get 30% THC + with medical cultivation, many people have no reason to create a super, super weed when it's more difficult to raise.
This is also seen in bananas, which are only so fleshy because they're triploid and do not produce massive amounts of seeds. Bananas in a diploid (wild type) state are completely stuffed with seeds and inedible.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- Mushrooms:
I can't say whether tetraploid mushrooms are possible, although I would guess there are probably some in nature.
But seriously, consider the fungal reproductive cycle from your Mycology 101 class, especially the species of interest. The mycelium that grows and crawls all over is haploid [1N] and only has one set of chromosomes. It fuses to create a diploid [2N] body which turns into the mushroom.
NOW, come on people - it's this easy. If we have a hypothetical fungus with 3N number of chromosomes, how many sets/pairs of chromosomes are in the spores?
It CANT be 3N, because we know our reproductive chart - it goes through meiosis. Is it 1N or 2N? If it's ONLY 1N, we end up with normal diploid mushrooms. If it's ONLY 2N, we have tetraploid mushrooms.
How can we seriously propagate a 3N mushroom? If we had a mixture of 1N and 2N spores, which grew on some medium, are the 1N and 2N mycelium even compatible to mix? If not, then we have diploid and tetraploid fruits - we can't choose. If so, we have diploid, triploid, and tetraploid fruits - we can't choose. We can determine which type of fruiting body we have through karyotyping, but ultimately triploid mushrooms just don't seem viable - I can't predict what might happen.
It seems the general consensus is that we can create 1.5N spores, which 1.99N is lethal in every creature on the planet (edit: not really, but if we're just flipping coins to remove half of a set of chromosomes, it's going to be lethal).
-------------------------------------------------------------------- Experimentation:
Now, if someone wants to create a Tetraploid body, the question needs to be proposed, WHEN DO WE TREAT THE ORGANISM? We don't have a circular reproductive cycle - this is the main question. We can't just slather chemicals on spores, mycelium, or mushrooms and expect polyploid individuals.
It ultimately seems that the fruit body needs treated prior to spore development in such a way that it produces 2N spores - I don't think mycelium could be induced to be 2N (genes just don't work that way).
If someone wanted to test this, I would grow 1/2 pint cakes, find a chemical capable of INTERRUPTING MEIOSIS (colchicine is an actual possibility - you need to make sure they have actual effects on meiosis and not some novel effect in the organism), dissolve it in water in varying concentrations, and do the 24hr dunk in the bath. The idea is to break up the meiotic cycle and cause 2N and 0N spores to be produced by eliminating the tubules that join the chromosomes. Crude karyotyping would need to be done to count the chromosome #'s, proper mushrooms would need spore prints taken or placed onto agar. I'm pretty comfortable in saying 0N spores are going to be lethals, so we could only expect 2N spores/myc to exist.
In other words, if you could create a 4N mushroom, it would seem pretty simple to propagate it. But there's also a billion mechanisms species have to prevent this or fix it by the next generation, which I'm going to guess no one knows for fungi (yet), so this is going to be a hefty project involving many chemicals and microscopy.
Edited by g3n3h4x0r (05/20/14 10:42 AM)
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Feelers
Anti-Myth-Rhythm-Rock-Shocker



Registered: 06/18/02
Posts: 1,806
Loc: Land of Oz
Last seen: 5 years, 9 months
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Re: Tetraploid shrooms? [Re: g3n3h4x0r]
#20023561 - 05/22/14 05:03 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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The genetics of fungi are more complicated in regards to chromosomes than plants are. For example, chromosomes and material can be shared between different cells.

It can get pretty crazy, the normal rules don't really apply, and in fungi they are often not well understood either.
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g3n3h4x0r
Fungal Geneticist

Registered: 09/29/13
Posts: 73
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
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Re: Tetraploid shrooms? [Re: Feelers]
#20027024 - 05/22/14 09:05 PM (9 years, 8 months ago) |
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This is more recombination - a concept to mix genes. This is the prevailing mechanism behind evolution.
Although, the fusion of some nuclei is interesting. I can't really determine if this would be a problem. I'll look into it shortly, I don't see the heterozygosity being an issue, but if the chromosome count can vary, the haploid/diploid state may be 'default' and polyploidy very... difficult? I can't say impossible.
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Wrath
Stranger

Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 209
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Re: Tetraploid shrooms? [Re: Asante]
#20273390 - 07/14/14 08:32 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Polyploids are an extra set of chromosomes as we all know. Oryzalin is a good agent (along with one that starts with a "T" that we use ;-). The "C" agent is not used commercially anymore. Basically; Soak seeds In Oryzalin (or better yet the other one ;-) ) for 36 hrs. Rinse for 6 hours. 50% die, 50% mutate (polyploid). Larger/longer/glossier leaves. There are other steps/agents we use (capsicum is sometimes used). Lillies were some of the first to be done in the late 1970s (legally), but it dates back to the turn of the 1900s as to the first person that tried this. It is a well known (albeit guarded secret for exact ratios-you can find the steps, but we never share the ratios :-D) process. This process takes years or time/patience b4 it hits market. I'm actually about to run some agar solution in a bit to replicate some canna hybrids we did. Anyways, mushies are a whole diff ball game compared to plants...I play around with it (no results) but RR is the one that will patent it first tho... My main interested is glow in the dark grasses!
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Bumbaclotjohnson
Sequoia Farmer



Registered: 01/12/14
Posts: 1,067
Loc: USA
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Re: Tetraploid shrooms? [Re: Wrath]
#20323337 - 07/24/14 07:57 PM (9 years, 6 months ago) |
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-------------------- FREE PRINTS I lie a lot on the internet.
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