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Offlinelysergic
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Registered: 06/09/03
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Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
Another example of the World Bank and IMF conspiring...
    #1999370 - 10/11/03 04:12 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

http://apnews1.iwon.com/article/20031010/D7U3DFVO4.html


Geez, will those evil bastards at the world bank /IMFever stop? All they do is try to bankrupt smaller poor countries! is't that what the liberals tell us? another great example of it...


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Re: Another example of the World Bank and IMF conspiring... [Re: lysergic]
    #2001487 - 10/12/03 01:36 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

As usual, you don't have a point. But let's move beyond that, shall we?

You have, again, proven that you know nothing about of what you speak. If you'll notice, the article points out that the World Bank and IMF produced a "study" saying how much Iraq could handle in the next year in foreing monetary aid - essentially, currency stabilization, backed by the economies of the contributing governments. This panel has estimated that Iraq will need $55 billion to rebuild.

As you'll notice, the majority of the money is said to be coming from the US (20.3 billion right away). Additionally, bids for contracts to do the rebuilding will only be available to US companies (or UK companies IF they meet the requirements of the WB/IMF).

Now. Let me say again, in case you missed it in my last 17 posts on this subject. The IMF is the lending arm of the World Bank. The IMF is owned in majority (51%) by the United States Treasury Department.

Here we see yet another example of foreign policy being dictated to us by business interests. Treasury Secretary John Snow is/was a member of PNAC - the same conservative think tank that includes Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and Paul Wolfowitz, among others.

Again, although you had no point, I will try to steer you towards an opportunity to educate yourself. Read these 2 books, and then when you come back to comment on this topic, you may be able to eloqute well enough for people to take your point seriously. Unlikely, but we can dream, can't we?

"Globalization and Its Discontents" - Joeseph E. Stiglitz (Former chief economic advisor for the World Bank)
"Fences and Windows" - Naomi Klein (investigative reporter for the Toronto Sun (I think that's the Sun...))


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Another example of the World Bank and IMF conspiring... [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2002177 - 10/12/03 11:27 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

GernBlanston writes:

Additionally, bids for contracts to do the rebuilding will only be available to US companies (or UK companies IF they meet the requirements of the WB/IMF).

You misread what the author wrote. He reports that foreign companies (not just the UK) may bid on projects financed by non-US sources --

"Only American companies are eligible for contracts financed by U.S. contributions, but foreign companies may obtain contracts under non-U.S. international assistance, said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity."

Do you think it unreasonable that contributions donated by US sources should be used to pay US contractors while money donated by non-US sources should be used to pay non-US contractors? If so, why?

Treasury Secretary John Snow is/was a member of PNAC - the same conservative think tank that includes Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and Paul Wolfowitz, among others.

And this is relevant to the information given in the article in what way, exactly?

pinky


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Another example of the World Bank and IMF conspiring... [Re: Phred]
    #2002277 - 10/12/03 12:55 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Do you think it unreasonable that contributions donated by US sources should be used to pay US contractors while money donated by non-US sources should be used to pay non-US contractors? If so, why?




If a foreign contractor can do the job as well/better than a US contractor and cheaper shouldnt they win the contract? Surely that would be in the best interests of the Iraqi's? And of course the US does have the Iraqi's best interests at heart.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Another example of the World Bank and IMF conspiring... [Re: GazzBut]
    #2002286 - 10/12/03 12:59 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Is this aid in the form of a loan? Will the Iraqi's be expected to repay it once they are generating revenue from the oil industty? If so the US have absolutely no right to tell the Iraqi's how to spend it.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Another example of the World Bank and IMF conspiring... [Re: GazzBut]
    #2002299 - 10/12/03 01:09 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

GazzBut writes:

If a foreign contractor can do the job as well/better than a US contractor and cheaper shouldnt they win the contract?

If the money were Iraq's money, of course. If the money put up for the contract is the US's money, why should US contractors not get the nod?

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Another example of the World Bank and IMF conspiring... [Re: GazzBut]
    #2002325 - 10/12/03 01:23 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

GazzBut writes:

Is this aid in the form of a loan? Will the Iraqi's be expected to repay it once they are generating revenue from the oil industty?

It is not stated in the article whether the amounts required are to be obtained through loans or through gifts or a combination thereof. However, many of the phrases (and amounts mentioned -- see Japan's and Europe's amounts) seem consistent with outright foreign aid rather than loans:

"A study by the World Bank and other international organizations estimates that Iraq could handle only $5.2 billion in foreign reconstruction aid next year without problems arising."

"That financial reality, though, should not discourage countries from making larger contributions that the country needs ..."

"...it estimates that Iraq needs $55 billion in economic aid overall, in the next several years..."

"In two weeks these groups and some 70 nations, including the United States, will gather in Madrid for a donor's conference sponsored by the Spanish government."

"Congress is in the midst of acting on a request for $20.3 billion in reconstruction spending, including $5 billion for Iraq's emerging security force."

In the case of the US contribution, we know already that it is being treated as an outright gift, not a loan. There are rumblings in Congress already that the 20.3 billion should be treated as a loan, however, so it is possible it may eventually be voted a loan.

If so the US have absolutely no right to tell the Iraqi's how to spend it.

Incorrect. A lender has every right to place restrictions on how the money he is lending will be spent, just as the borrower has every right to reject a loan with conditions attached which he feels unacceptable.

pinky


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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
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Re: Another example of the World Bank and IMF conspiring... [Re: Phred]
    #2002537 - 10/12/03 03:45 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

pinky - A brilliant post :smile:


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Another example of the World Bank and IMF conspiring... [Re: Phred]
    #2002719 - 10/12/03 05:11 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
GazzBut writes:

If a foreign contractor can do the job as well/better than a US contractor and cheaper shouldnt they win the contract?

If the money were Iraq's money, of course. If the money put up for the contract is the US's money, why should US contractors not get the nod?

pinky




I agree with Gazz on this. The U.S. should continue its move back to multilateralism. At the very least the no-bid contracts should be challenged, so the smell of nepotism will go away. (story)

Why do you think U.S. contractors should get the sole nod?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Another example of the World Bank and IMF conspiring... [Re: hongomon]
    #2002788 - 10/12/03 05:38 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

hongomon writes:

I agree with Gazz on this. The U.S. should continue its move back to multilateralism.

Other countries are not closed out of the bidding on anything other than contracts funded by US taxpayer dollars. If the required 55 billion can be raised with the US supplying just 20 billion of it, 64% of the amount is open to all bidders.

Why do you think U.S. contractors should get the sole nod?

Because it (the 20.3 billion we are discussing) comes from US taxes paid by US taxpayers. US firms are as competent as any at this kind of work, and more competent than many. I figure if the US taxpayer is getting shafted by having his tax dollars used for the benefit of other countries, the least they can do is make sure some US employees receive those dollars. As well, US companies pay taxes to the US government, so some of it will eventually end up in the US treasury coffers again. Such would not be the case if the contracts went to foreign contractors.

pinky


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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
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Re: Another example of the World Bank and IMF conspiring... [Re: Phred]
    #2002866 - 10/12/03 06:08 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

pink - I wish I could rate you with 5 stars twice. Beautiful work. Why do people think that America shouldn't get any positive effects from our donations of money, troops and lives to Iraq's freedom and rebuilding? Is that bad?


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Another example of the World Bank and IMF conspiring... [Re: Phred]
    #2004474 - 10/13/03 04:55 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Why do you think Iraq can only handle $5 billion in aid until their oil industry has been rebuilt? This is what made me wonder if it is a loan or straight aid we are talking about here.

As for the US being able to tell the Iraqi's how they should spend their money, I agree that a lender can put conditions on how the money is spent. I just think specifying which companies they spend it with is wrong. If I go to a bank for a loan for a car they will expect me to buy a car. They wont however tell me which model to go for and which dealer to buy it from.


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Always Smi2le


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: Another example of the World Bank and IMF conspiring... [Re: Phred]
    #2004666 - 10/13/03 09:23 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Because it (the 20.3 billion we are discussing) comes from US taxes paid by US taxpayers. US firms are as competent as any at this kind of work, and more competent than many. I figure if the US taxpayer is getting shafted by having his tax dollars used for the benefit of other countries, the least they can do is make sure some US employees receive those dollars. As well, US companies pay taxes to the US government, so some of it will eventually end up in the US treasury coffers again. Such would not be the case if the contracts went to foreign contractors.




I guess majority of this money will go to the company owners. It sounds like Bush cut the taxes for the rich and then started a war to give them the remaining taxes. Very cool - he probably kept all the promises he made to the campaign sponsors.  :lol: 


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Another example of the World Bank and IMF conspiring... [Re: zeronio]
    #2004947 - 10/13/03 12:43 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Zeronio writes:

I guess majority of this money will go to the company owners.

Then you guess wrong. I suggest you take the time to look at the annual reports of a few oil equipment companies. Pay particular attention to the relationship between gross revenue and expenses, especially expenses related to equipment costs, personnel costs, and taxes.

It sounds like Bush cut the taxes for the rich...

The reductions in taxes were just that -- reductions. Both the corporations and the shareholders of those corporations still pay taxes, just less than they did before. Therefore if the contracts funded by US taxpayers are awarded to US companies, some of the funds make their way back to the US Treasury, as well as providing employment for US taxpayers. If the contracts are awarded to non-US firms, none of that money does.

...and then started a war to give them the remaining taxes.

You have convinced yourself the reason war was waged so US oil firms (and UK oil firms and Australian oil firms and Spanish oil firms) could make some money? No argument anyone could raise will dissuade you, then. Your belief is irrelevant to the point of this thread in any case.

pinky


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Another example of the World Bank and IMF conspiring... [Re: Phred]
    #2005018 - 10/13/03 01:19 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I guess majority of this money will go to the company owners.


Then you guess wrong. I suggest you take the time to look at the annual reports of a few oil equipment companies. Pay particular attention to the relationship between gross revenue and expenses, especially expenses related to equipment costs, personnel costs, and taxes.




sure, it will pay salaries, suppliers and possibly offer some additional
tax revenue to the state and federal governments, but you don't address
what I think was the point that he was trying to make in that you neglect
the pay increases, hefty bonuses and kick backs that will surely be floated
to these captains of industry for landing these lucrative contracts.

a little animal farm analogy: everyone comes up in the end, some just
come up more than others, especially if you donated.

as for the last point(s), I agree with you that it is nice and seems
somewhat justified that some of these funds be directed back into
the us economy by mandate or otherwise, but I've also got to agree
with (a broadened version of) zeronio's point that goading the nation
into war on exaggerated pretenses against the will of the nearly the
entire globe and subsequently mandating that lucrative military support
and reconstruction contracts be awarded to close associates and cronies,
at times without outside bids, is just a tad bit suspect.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Another example of the World Bank and IMF conspiring... [Re: Phred]
    #2005143 - 10/13/03 02:02 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Then you guess wrong. I suggest you take the time to look at the annual reports of a few oil equipment companies. Pay particular attention to the relationship between gross revenue and expenses, especially expenses related to equipment costs, personnel costs, and taxes.





Oh the poor oil companies!

Link


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Always Smi2le


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Another example of the World Bank and IMF conspiring... [Re: GazzBut]
    #2005782 - 10/13/03 06:06 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

That link is neither relevant to my reply to Zeronio nor to the topic of the thread.

pinky


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Another example of the World Bank and IMF conspiring... [Re: Phred]
    #2005789 - 10/13/03 06:08 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

whateva


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Another example of the World Bank and IMF conspiring... [Re: afoaf]
    #2005801 - 10/13/03 06:13 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

afoaf writes:

sure, it will pay salaries, suppliers and possibly offer some additional
tax revenue to the state and federal governments, but you don't address
what I think was the point that he was trying to make in that you neglect
the pay increases, hefty bonuses and kick backs that will surely be floated
to these captains of industry for landing these lucrative contracts.


I did address his point. The majority of the 20.3 billion spent by the US will not go to the owners of the companies.

As an aside, need I point out that all of your points would apply equally if the "captains of industry" to which you refer were German or French or Canadian or whatever?

as for the last point(s), I agree with you that it is nice and seems
somewhat justified that some of these funds be directed back into
the us economy by mandate or otherwise, but I've also got to agree
with (a broadened version of) zeronio's point that goading the nation
into war on exaggerated pretenses against the will of the nearly the
entire globe and subsequently mandating that lucrative military support
and reconstruction contracts be awarded to close associates and cronies,
at times without outside bids, is just a tad bit suspect.


And as I said, there is no point pursuing this line of thought with those who have already convinced themselves the war was fought so cronies of the Bush administration could make money. Besides, it is irrelevant to the topic of the thread.

pinky





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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Another example of the World Bank and IMF conspiring... [Re: Phred]
    #2007510 - 10/14/03 04:31 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

And as I said, there is no point pursuing this line of thought with those who have already convinced themselves the war was fought so cronies of the Bush administration could make money.




So what have you convinced yourself the reasons for war were?


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Always Smi2le


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