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InvisibleBayerPhi
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Registered: 05/28/12
Posts: 1,884
Psilocybin and Selegiline
    #19914585 - 04/29/14 12:59 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Back in my more brave/ignorant days.
Taking 5mg of selegiline and 4-5+ grams (dried) of shrooms, often lead to overwhelming experiences, more profound and more beautiful, longer, and more of a too long DMTish feel; with the "into the void and piercing the veil" type trips. And if I could get brave enough to "let go" I would experience constant Ego Loss over and over again while being overwhelmed with epiphanies of myself, surroundings, and my little social web and life.

Now, I'm strictly without the selegiline. I don't think I can handle that mentally any more.  That combination made me realize things I wasn't prepared to.  However, I do miss the intensity.  Shrooms are my only drug of choice, how might I just get a touch of that experience again without my MAOI-B?

I've heard LSD brings this type of trip, but that's few and far between.

I've heard of weed potentiating shrooms. But I'm an anxious smoker so I prefer not to. I've nitrous, done lightly the stuff's wonderful!

Anyone else know of anything? Suggestions?
Thank you!


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Psilocybin and Selegiline [Re: BayerPhi]
    #19914613 - 04/29/14 01:13 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Why not try a reversible MAO-A inhibitor like Harmalas/Rue/Caapi? Or are you not wanting anymore MAO inhibition and are just looking to potentiate the Shrooms?


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InvisibleBayerPhi
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Re: Psilocybin and Selegiline [Re: Sabnock]
    #19914661 - 04/29/14 01:23 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sabnock said:
Why not try a reversible MAO-A inhibitor like Harmalas/Rue/Caapi? Or are you not wanting anymore MAO inhibition and are just looking to potentiate the Shrooms?




reversible/irreversible MOAI-A's linger a bit more in cardiovascular receptors; though I'm a long distance runner, I'm still afraid of a hypertensive crisis.

Although, tapering small doses would be reasonable - do you have experience with this?

Potentiate, sure.


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Psilocybin and Selegiline [Re: BayerPhi]
    #19914821 - 04/29/14 02:04 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Well actually Harmalas and Moclobmide, because they are reversible inhibitors of MAO-A, they don't really have any hypertensive crisis risks. There's alot of conflicting information of the web about this, but the more recent information pretty much states that there's no dietary/food restrictions when it comes to reversible MAO-A inhibitors. I myself eat a standard American diet, never once suffered any negative reaction having to do with hypertension. I have however experienced high blood pressure due to the sheer terror, anxiety, fear, and panic that the Ayahuasca (specifically DMT) can cause, but i've never noticed any hypertensive effects from anything food or drink related. I've even drank caffeine during Ayahuasca on many occasions and never noticed any negative reactions due to it's stimulant effects. So i think one's good there.

In fact, one time i took 300mgs of Moclobemide, and 30 minutes later took 3 00-sized capsules of Mimosa inner root bark powder, and it was the most intense pure DMT-like experience i've ever had, and i had to wake my mom up (cuz she used to be a nurse) to have her check my blood pressure. She said my heart rate and blood pressure was up a bit, but it was just from me being scared. And once i talked to her for a few minutes, my anxiety calmed itself and everything was fine again.

So, as far as a hypertensive crisis goes, i'm pretty sure you'll be fine. Just don't mistake the effects of Harmalas or the combination of Harmalas and Shrooms/Harmalas and DMT, as some negative reaction, because sometimes just the effects alone can convince someone they've ingested poison or are feeling like they're dying or feeling like they wanna goto the hospital.

And yeah i have experience with all kinds of doses of Rue/Rue extract/Purified Harmala extract. The higher the dose, the more nausea and purging, however with lower doses it is said one can potentiate the Shrooms and not have any nausea or purging. Low doses of Rue are 2.5 to 3 grams of Rue seed, and high doses of Rue are 4 to 6 grams of Rue seed, i personally use 4 grams. Idk about the dosage range for Caapi, as i've never used it, but Rue should be good enough.

As for potentiation, i don't know about anything to make it more intense (i'm not really all too keen on intensity), but i have noticed that for me Lemon Balm tea seems to increase the visuals i get behind closed eyes, though that's just something i've noticed personally. Plus i've noticed the Lemon Balm reduces anxiety and makes the Ayahuasca experience more comfortable, thus significantly decreasing the chances of a "difficult experience". And since i've been using Lemon Balm with my Ayahuasca, i haven't had anymore issues with anxiety, fear, panic or terror.

Edit: I should also note that the Harmalas themselves can also cause a slight increase in blood pressure, because they raise the levels of Epinephrine in the brain, just like with Serotonin, Dopamine, Norepinephrine and other neurotransmitters and trace amines as well, due to the inhibition of MAO-A. Once again though, nothing bad or dangerous... if it were bad i'd know by now lol.


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Edited by Sabnock (04/29/14 02:29 AM)


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OfflineDa2ra
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Re: Psilocybin and Selegiline [Re: Sabnock]
    #19915504 - 04/29/14 07:02 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

I wonder if it's possible for synthetic MAOIs to produce a better quality ayahuasca trip than harmalas. :strokebeard:

The irreversible MAO inhibitors shouldn't be dismissed either. Just follow the damn diet. :smile:

Selegiline has been noted to have neuroprotective effects and to improve libido. :smile:

http://smart-drugs.net/ias-deprenylJS.htm


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InvisibleBayerPhi
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Re: Psilocybin and Selegiline [Re: Da2ra]
    #19923458 - 04/30/14 09:00 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Da2ra said:
I wonder if it's possible for synthetic MAOIs to produce a better quality ayahuasca trip than harmalas. :strokebeard:

The irreversible MAO inhibitors shouldn't be dismissed either. Just follow the damn diet. :smile:

Selegiline has been noted to have neuroprotective effects and to improve libido. :smile:

http://smart-drugs.net/ias-deprenylJS.htm





Good question.
I'm not sure, but MOA-A's are key enzymes specifically for serotonin.
Where-as MOA-B's look at any catecholamine or phenethylamine and say sure, I'll oxidize that.


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Psilocybin and Selegiline [Re: Da2ra]
    #19924258 - 04/30/14 11:24 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Da2ra said:
I wonder if it's possible for synthetic MAOIs to produce a better quality ayahuasca trip than harmalas. :strokebeard:

The irreversible MAO inhibitors shouldn't be dismissed either. Just follow the damn diet. :smile:




There is a synthetic reversible inhibitor of MAO-A, called Moclobemide that will activate DMT orally, i've used it. But it wouldn't produce an "Ayahuasca Experience", it would produce a DMT experience, like pure oral DMT. So one can use Moclobemide to activate pure DMT or it's respective plants like Mimosa, Acacia, Chaliponga or Chacruna.

With Moclobemide, i find it really lacks the "magic" that is Ayahuasca, specifically because the Harmalas in Ayahuasca don't just act as MAO-A inhibitors but they also have other properties that add to the experience, thus making it the "Ayahuasca Experience", whereas Moclobemide or other MAOI's merely only inhibit MAO from breaking down DMT so that the DMT becomes active. DMT is one thing, Ayahuasca is something completely different.

And btw, with irreversible MAOI's, my concern wouldn't so much be the diet, but that the risk of Serotonin Syndrome is more severe because MAO can't break down any Serotonin for two weeks, and if the levels of Serotonin get raised too much, it won't be pretty, i can assure you.

I myself at one time tried everything i could think of to find a way around having to use Harmalas to orally activate DMT, mainly due to me not wanting to feel nauseous. However when i found Moclobemide, i discovered the DMT on it's own is alright, but it really lacks the awesomeness that is Ayahuasca. Plus, with Moclobemide the DMT always seemed to fade after an hour, whereas with the Rue it seems to last about 2 to 3 hours DMT-wise and 6 to 7 hours Harmala-wise, depending on dosage of the Rue/Harmalas. So ultimately i just decided to stick with the Rue for use with DMT, and since then i've come to accept the purge/vomiting but i still hate the nausea, though Cannabis does really seem to help with that.


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OfflineDa2ra
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Re: Psilocybin and Selegiline [Re: Sabnock]
    #19925068 - 05/01/14 02:47 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Very informative post, Sabnock. Thanks.

In regard to the sickness experienced by rue, it seems like rue is somewhat toxic whereas B. caapi is inherently clean. Read the following Erowid report that contrasts harmine extract with crude Syrian rue. Additionally, read the research below that that conveys that rue contains toxins. I don't have much support for my claim that B. caapi is inherently clean, but I seem to recall reading that in several places. And I'm talking about effects beyond and worse than nausea. When I've done rue, I've incurred a toxic whole body feeling. Low doses, too.


Ron. "It's So Peaceful: An Experience with Harmine (ID 70617)". Erowid.org. Sep 11, 2008. erowid.org/exp/70617


Peganum harmala intoxication, a case report. M. Moshiri, et. al. (2013)

Toxicity of Peganum harmala: Review and a Case Report. M. Mahmoudian, et. al. (2002)


The following one proposes what it is that makes it toxic.

A case of beta-carboline alkaloid intoxication following ingestion of peganum harmala seed extract. 2008. Frison, G., et. al. Forensic Science International 179 (2–3): e37–43. (Page e41)

However, it must be emphasized that peganine and deoxypeganine, reportedly present in P. harmala seeds, were for the first time detected in an infusion-like preparation and in the patient’s urine. These two quinazoline alkaloids are reported to cause a pronounced depression of cholinesterase activity in animals, with desoxypeganine showing an anticholinesterase activity being 10 times superior than peganine. In the experiments on anesthetized cats, desoxypeganine eliminated blockade of neuromuscular conductivity induced by diplacine and conversely enhanced blockade induced by ditilin[40]. Their role in producing some of P. harmala intoxication symptoms should be kept in account.

[40] N. Tuliaganov, F.S. Sadritdinov, G.A. Sulemanova, Pharmacological characteristics of desoxypeganine hydrochloride, Farmakol. Toksikol. 49 (1986) 37–40.



Click here to download these articles.


Ben Salah, N., Amamou, M., Jerbi, Z., Ben Salah, F., Yacoub, M., 1986b. A case of overdose with Peganum harmala L.. J. Toxicol. Clin. Exp. 1986, 319–322.

Don't have a copy of this.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3795136
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/19367073_A_case_of_overdose_with_Peganum_harmala_L


Edited by Da2ra (05/01/14 02:53 AM)


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Psilocybin and Selegiline [Re: Da2ra]
    #19925156 - 05/01/14 03:29 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah i've heard that, but everything i've read up on about it pretty much says anything over 10 grams of Rue could have some toxic effects, but i myself never go above 4 or 5 grams. Although both Rue and Caapi act as purgatives, and both cause nausea, in fact some have even claimed that Caapi caused stronger nausea/purging because more of it can be ingested unlike with Rue. Even with purified Harmala extracts (purely Harmaline and Harmine) i've gotten nausea, vomiting, gut contractions that felt like being punched in the stomach, the feeling of a pressure building up in the stomach, and even vomiting several times.

I can't say that i've ever felt toxic effects from Rue, i've felt nausea, i've vomited, i've had disorientation and blurry vision (accompanied by trails and shimmers off of light), i've even felt like i was drunk but without being intoxicated, but i've never felt toxic effects. However with purified Harmala extract, while it still causes nausea, vomiting and other gut issues, the purified Harmalas feel cleaner and don't seem to feel as "raw" as the Rue seed or full spectrum. So if i were to take ground Rue seed in capsules or a Rue full spectrum extract capsule, then i would be experiencing it raw, but if i used purified Harmalas, it seems cleaner and less raw.


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Psilocybin and Selegiline [Re: Sabnock]
    #19925204 - 05/01/14 03:57 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Oh i'd also like to mention that when i've taken Rue seed capsules or Rue full spectrum extract with Lemon Balm tea, it feels like the "raw" feelings are gone. If i make a tea from 3 to 4 grams of dried Lemon Balm and take it with my Rue/extract, everything is so peaceful and relaxing and it doesn't feel raw or the least bit toxic.

I think it has to do with Harmaline being an inverse agonist at the GABA-A receptor, and Lemon Balm is said to inhibit GABA-Transaminase which raises the levels of GABA in the brain, thus apparently blocking out/reversing the inverse agonist action of Harmaline.

Also, the Anti-cholinesterase activity, if i'm not mistaken is the same thing as Acetylcholinesterase inhibition, correct? If so, Lemon Balm does that too, and to me it seems to increase visuals, as well as clarity and memory. And i wouldn't consider Acetylcholinesterase inhibition to be anything bad, atleast for reversible inhibitors, as Acetylcholinesterase inhibitors are what they give to Alzheimer's patients to help with memory, by preventing the breakdown of Acetylcholine. Acetylcholinesterase inhibitors are also said to help with lucid dreaming by apparently prolonging REM sleep. THC is even a reversible inhibitor of it.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Psilocybin and Selegiline [Re: BayerPhi]
    #19926387 - 05/01/14 01:54 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BayerPhi said:
Back in my more brave/ignorant days.
Taking 5mg of selegiline and 4-5+ grams (dried) of shrooms, often lead to overwhelming experiences, more profound and more beautiful, longer, and more of a too long DMTish feel; with the "into the void and piercing the veil" type trips. And if I could get brave enough to "let go" I would experience constant Ego Loss over and over again while being overwhelmed with epiphanies of myself, surroundings, and my little social web and life.

Now, I'm strictly without the selegiline. I don't think I can handle that mentally any more.  That combination made me realize things I wasn't prepared to.  However, I do miss the intensity.  Shrooms are my only drug of choice, how might I just get a touch of that experience again without my MAOI-B?

I've heard LSD brings this type of trip, but that's few and far between.

I've heard of weed potentiating shrooms. But I'm an anxious smoker so I prefer not to. I've nitrous, done lightly the stuff's wonderful!

Anyone else know of anything? Suggestions?
Thank you!




IME the kind of thing you're describing is simply dosage related, that and eliminating the nausea that results from ingesting the chitin in fruits.  SFAIK potentiation doesn't change the spectrum of effects, it simply...wait for it...potentiates.  So increase the dose, make proper acidified tea, ideally from fresh fruits, and get on with your happy "recurrent" ego loss :wink: and veil tearing activities.  It's all there if your dosage allows, and no worries about health either. :thumbup:

:peace:PS


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OfflineOhYouKnow
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Re: Psilocybin and Selegiline [Re: BayerPhi]
    #25203506 - 05/14/18 04:56 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Looking for similar info about microdosing psylocibin while taking 6mg transdermal Selegiline (Emsam, L-deprenyl, a substituted phenethylamine, a selective irreversible MAO-B inhibitor).

There are some threads on here asking similar questions but noting that answers mine.

I want to microdose mushrooms (no idea/preference what variety) for psychological "clarity" on some personal matters and issues. But I use 6mg Emsam daily. It's prescribed to me by a doctor for medical purposes (abates my CFS/FM symptoms 85%).

Selegiline can react badly with other meds, even OTC, such as I can't take Sudafed and other decongestants. I occasionally (1-2 p/yr) take a very small dose of Ritalin to help with fatigue. Even some docs disagree on the safety of these two together.

Not exactly sure of the metabolism, but I think the body creates a certain amount of methamphetamine from the selegiline during metabolism. (That's how people get extra energy, insomnia, and weight loss.)

The high blood pressure warning with selegiline is if you eat tyramine, although at a 6mg transdermal dose, this isn't a problem.

What do I need to look out for? Do I need a washout period?


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InvisibleBayerPhi
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Re: Psilocybin and Selegiline [Re: OhYouKnow]
    #25203856 - 05/14/18 07:31 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OhYouKnow said:
Looking for similar info about microdosing psylocibin while taking 6mg transdermal Selegiline (Emsam, L-deprenyl, a substituted phenethylamine, a selective irreversible MAO-B inhibitor).

There are some threads on here asking similar questions but noting that answers mine.

I want to microdose mushrooms (no idea/preference what variety) for psychological "clarity" on some personal matters and issues. But I use 6mg Emsam daily. It's prescribed to me by a doctor for medical purposes (abates my CFS/FM symptoms 85%).

Selegiline can react badly with other meds, even OTC, such as I can't take Sudafed and other decongestants. I occasionally (1-2 p/yr) take a very small dose of Ritalin to help with fatigue. Even some docs disagree on the safety of these two together.

Not exactly sure of the metabolism, but I think the body creates a certain amount of methamphetamine from the selegiline during metabolism. (That's how people get extra energy, insomnia, and weight loss.)

The high blood pressure warning with selegiline is if you eat tyramine, although at a 6mg transdermal dose, this isn't a problem.

What do I need to look out for? Do I need a washout period?





You'll be fine microdosing mushrooms.
I used to take 5mg of L-Deprenyl and upwards of 3 to 5g of shrooms for my trips, and experienced no life-threatening situations besides existential ones.

The metabolite selegiline produces is Levo-methamphetamine, which is majorily PNS stimulation. Unlike the illicit form dextro-methamphetamine, which is the CNS stimulation isomer of the molecule.

Stay away from tyramine backbone based molecules and alkaloids.


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