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OfflineJhadAgainstReality
the only thinglonger than myname is my penis

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 403
Loc: england
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
can anything be definatively proved?
    #1987356 - 10/07/03 06:01 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

is it possible to prove ANYTHING, beyond a shadow of a doubt?
the following questions- is it really possible to truly prove any of them, totally and definatively?

God does/does not exist?
there is/isnt a multiverse?
life is/isnt a dream/hallucination/simulation?
you do/dont exist?

these are just random questions, but you get the idea, right?

i mean, can anything REALLY be proved?


--------------------
"Listen Bush, i dont have any weapons. are you listening asshole? i dont have any fucking weapons! whats your problem, you fucking prick? Do you, like, WANT to go to war or something?! hey! whats all that laughter? whats so fucking funny?! Bush? BUSH! *click* Hello? HELLO?"


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Offlinestart25
member
Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 111
Last seen: 18 years, 13 days
Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: JhadAgainstReality]
    #1987442 - 10/07/03 06:33 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

no. nothing is 100% certain.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 9,998
Loc: Overjoyed, at the bottom ...
Last seen: 22 days, 21 hours
Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: JhadAgainstReality]
    #1987476 - 10/07/03 06:52 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

This is why I try and base my beliefs on probabilities. 

Use "Maybe Logic"  :wink:


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 1,121
Loc: red earth painted with mi...
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: JhadAgainstReality]
    #1987477 - 10/07/03 06:52 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

theres just probabilities. but i cant prove that


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflineDankBluntZ
We know little
Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 184
Loc: florida
Last seen: 16 years, 23 days
Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: CleverName]
    #1987497 - 10/07/03 07:01 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Anything can be definatively proved if you believe it is proved in your mind. Reality is not what everyone sees, its what you yourself see and believe. So, if you believe that something has been proved (no matter what drove you to believe this) then it definatively is true. anyone agree/disagree on any level?


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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: JhadAgainstReality]
    #1987507 - 10/07/03 07:03 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

proved in the sense of a mathematical proof, as in using logic, no. but that's what is great about these things!


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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Offlinestart25
member
Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 111
Last seen: 18 years, 13 days
Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: DankBluntZ]
    #1987673 - 10/07/03 07:46 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I disagree. A lot of people think they're wonderful, attractive, talented etc., while the masses of people would disagree. Some things are determined, I don't buy the karmic cycles or the "you make reality" philosophies. although sometimes I do see how the "you make reality" philosophy can play out in many peoples' lives.


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OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
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Registered: 04/11/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 3 months, 22 days
Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: DankBluntZ]
    #1987694 - 10/07/03 07:50 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Can I survive a gunshot to the back of my head if I believe it won't hurt me?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineDankBluntZ
We know little
Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 184
Loc: florida
Last seen: 16 years, 23 days
Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: Phluck]
    #1987830 - 10/07/03 08:43 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Can I survive a gunshot to the back of my head if I believe it won't hurt me?





Once you get shot in the back of the head i gaurantee you will no longer believe that it won't hurt you. You will probably no longer believe a lot of things since youll most likely be dead. your reality would have changed.


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OfflinePhluck
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Registered: 04/11/99
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Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: DankBluntZ]
    #1987843 - 10/07/03 08:47 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

In that case the gun must exist for sure, and your must know for sure that discharging one into your skull can change your reality.

If any aspect of reality can be changed through belief, why can't this one?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: Phluck]
    #1987902 - 10/07/03 09:04 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Damn there's some hardcore retards going around these parts


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OfflineSpokesman
The HighPhilosopher

Registered: 08/05/03
Posts: 847
Loc: New Jersey U.S.
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: ]
    #1987910 - 10/07/03 09:07 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

If nonone can define reality how can anything be proven o exist or happen? Like my sig says.


--------------------


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OfflineDankBluntZ
We know little
Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 184
Loc: florida
Last seen: 16 years, 23 days
Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: Phluck]
    #1987920 - 10/07/03 09:11 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
In that case the gun must exist for sure, and your must know for sure that discharging one into your skull can change your reality.




If you know for sure that discharging a bullet into your head can change your reality then you do not believe that you won't die or be injured from a gunshot to the head. What I mean is that it is only your reality if you TRULY believe inside.
Let me put it this way, if you believe that a gun won't injure and/or kill you, then that is your reality (no one has the same reality) until you are shot in the back of the head with a gun.



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OfflineDankBluntZ
We know little
Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 184
Loc: florida
Last seen: 16 years, 23 days
Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: Spokesman]
    #1987942 - 10/07/03 09:18 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Spokesman said:
If nonone can define reality how can anything be proven o exist or happen? Like my sig says.




Reality is your life. Everything you experience, feel, touch, hear , say, and believe in is YOUR own personal reality. I think where my thinking strays from others is because some people think their is this one huge reality that everyone lives in simultaneously.But how can this ever possibly be since no two people see things exactly the same.

The way I see it , is that everyone lives in their own personal realities, no matter how enlightened or smart or knowledgeable of their surroundings they may be.

I guess what im really trying to say is nothing can be proven and nothing is proven, unless its something you have proven to yourself.



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Offlinemanna_man
High onlife.....andcrack

Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 481
Loc: Vancouver
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: DankBluntZ]
    #1987961 - 10/07/03 09:26 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DankBluntZ said:
Anything can be definatively proved if you believe it is proved in your mind. Reality is not what everyone sees, its what you yourself see and believe. So, if you believe that something has been proved (no matter what drove you to believe this) then it definatively is true. anyone agree/disagree on any level?




If you believe something is proved in your mind, then that is a belief, not truth. Truth is not a subjective entity, but more something universal that cannot be refuted in any way.
Truth can't be objected to, and if it can, then it is not truth, but a belief.
THEREFORE, none of the above questions can be PROVED because all rest on beliefs.


--------------------
This post is protected under copyrite law.All above content is strictly the property of ?manna_man.Any infringement of copyright property is strictly prohibited.Any violators will be stretched, shot, and then vaporized into a state of anti-matter, where they will cease to exist.


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InvisibletrendalM
J♠
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,790
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: JhadAgainstReality]
    #1988571 - 10/08/03 12:21 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

The only thing that is 100% certain to me is that I exist as some sort of individual consciousness.

Beyond that...it's a matter of probability and possibility  :smirk:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
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Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: JhadAgainstReality]
    #1988984 - 10/08/03 02:50 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

prove that nothing can be proved.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offlinemanna_man
High onlife.....andcrack

Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 481
Loc: Vancouver
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1989023 - 10/08/03 03:07 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

baahhhhh... :nut:


--------------------
This post is protected under copyrite law.All above content is strictly the property of ?manna_man.Any infringement of copyright property is strictly prohibited.Any violators will be stretched, shot, and then vaporized into a state of anti-matter, where they will cease to exist.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: manna_man]
    #1989039 - 10/08/03 03:15 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

We are all subjectively experiencing an objective world that none of us have any way of knowing it objectively as we experience it subjectively.

Of course, the more you remove your ego and your independant viewpoint, meditation, drugs, etc, the more you sort of clue in on the objective truths... but it is still our take on the objective truth, making it subjective truth, it is only the imagination of coinciding logic (:grin: thanks, Spokesman!)

Come on, now, prove me wrong. Bring in undeniable proof agansit what I said. Or what anyone else said. None exists. None of us can hold objective truth. Sorry.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinesoulflyer
Exploringmusichead!

Registered: 06/25/03
Posts: 99
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: manna_man]
    #1989041 - 10/08/03 03:16 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

lol i agree with manna_man :crazy2:


--------------------
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."
-Albert Einstein


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InvisibleautomanM
blasted chipmunk
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Registered: 09/18/03
Posts: 8,271
Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: soulflyer]
    #1989046 - 10/08/03 03:18 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

i can only prove that i exist, and i can only prove that to myself, not anyone else


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: DankBluntZ]
    #1989357 - 10/08/03 08:06 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DankBluntZ said:
Anything can be definatively proved if you believe it is proved in your mind. Reality is not what everyone sees, its what you yourself see and believe. So, if you believe that something has been proved (no matter what drove you to believe this) then it definatively is true. anyone agree/disagree on any level?




I disagree. Reality exists outside our perception, it doesn't need you or me to be there. Your existence, the interaction with reality, is what defines your experience. That experience is subjective, it's yours, you may call it "your world" but reality is often different from your beliefs, so truth is or could be.
The shotgun example says it all. You may not believe it can kill you, it's your truth but in fact, reality is much different and your brains will blow.
What is true in your reality might not be true in others reality but the truth is, there is a common reality we share which can't be changed and sometimes can't be understood.
The only truth i know is, we born, live and die.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflineSpokesman
The HighPhilosopher

Registered: 08/05/03
Posts: 847
Loc: New Jersey U.S.
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: MAIA]
    #1989597 - 10/08/03 11:43 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah you can prove that you exist as a conciousness and only to yourself and evennthen you still cant prove that you as a physical body exist. You cant even prove that your reading this post at this exact time. Maybe its true that past/present/and future occur all the same time and your only remembering life like you remember a 2 hour long dream that took your brain 2 secounds to create....................................... :sad: or maybe im insane but theres no way of proving that either so :smile:


--------------------


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OnlineAsanteA
wake/dream möbius strip
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Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: Spokesman]
    #1989920 - 10/08/03 01:53 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

As it comes to proof we are completely in the dark.

If you want to build a brick house you gotta have bricks :nut:
Likewise, if you want to find a system of solid truths you have got to have at least one to start out with. But we don't have any.If you say: "I Exist!" you use two assumptions: the assumption that there is a self and the assumption that something can be. Now one or both of these can be objectively true (if there is such a thing), but there simply is no clue which one if any is!

Take a film camera and shoot a scene. A kid picks a daisy and smells it. Then he throws it on the ground. Now that is the world we live in, right? That is "True". But hold it a sec. Run the movie backwards. The kid picks up a flower, smells it and puts it onto its stem. Now that is equally "true", no?  And now cut out all the individual frames place them over eachother and show that still. Now form as we know it is lost. There is an amorphous glob, every part of it being the kid, and an amorphous streak that's a flower piched up, smelled and discarded. That is equally "true" as the former observation. The only game played here was screwing with the usual perception of time. First there's time, then there's anti-time and then all flows into one to give static time.
It's enough to drive a guy sane if he lives on anti-time :nut:

Truth? Thinking you know the truth is the most dangerous thing on the planet. Always incorporate a sense of uncertainty, and keep that grain of salt handy before God sends you on a divine quest to slay the unbelievers. Assume you're right (or wrong) but don't become rocksolid/rigid in your beliefs for that seperates the young-of-mind from the old.


.
 


--------------------
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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Male

Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: Asante]
    #1989939 - 10/08/03 01:58 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Hehe, nice, Wiccan Seeker! :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
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Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1990398 - 10/08/03 04:37 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I think therefore, I am.


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OfflineSpokesman
The HighPhilosopher

Registered: 08/05/03
Posts: 847
Loc: New Jersey U.S.
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Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: Ego Death]
    #1990426 - 10/08/03 04:50 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

prove it!..............................................................................


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Offlinecatalyst777
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Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: JhadAgainstReality]
    #1990765 - 10/08/03 07:11 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Just because people perceive the world in different ways does not mean there's not an "ultimate reality". As to whether this can be proven or not is another story.

I've seen many people post their opinions on this board very dogmatically. Then, in their next post, they'll denounce someone for doing the same. I see this counterdiction most often in discussions about God/religion.

I'm drinking a really nice glass of cabernet sauvignon right now. It's a real glass, trust me. We really do exist, although it would be an exercise in futility to try to prove that.



--------------------
Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored.

Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleautomanM
blasted chipmunk
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Registered: 09/18/03
Posts: 8,271
Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: catalyst777]
    #1990818 - 10/08/03 07:25 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

catalyst, i think the point people are making is that, in a way, you cant prove that you arent a brain in a jar, creating everything and everyone you see to help cope with isolation. i know that seems rediculous, but you cant actually prove that it isnt the case.


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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Offlinecatalyst777
soul searcher
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Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: automan]
    #1990856 - 10/08/03 07:38 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I understand what you're saying. It's not my intention to argue about it or insult anyone's beliefs, either.
That would get us nowhere.

I wonder why the author of this thread posted it.

JhadAgainstReality-Why did you post it? What was your motivation?




--------------------
Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored.

Aldous Huxley


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Offlinemoogle
newbie

Registered: 10/03/03
Posts: 49
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: can anything be definitively proved? [Re: Ego Death]
    #1991013 - 10/08/03 08:40 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I think therefore, I am.




Hey, Rene.

You only think that you think, therefore you think that you are.

You think that there is 'you', and then in your subjective reality, defined by what you perceive, you perceive yourself, so therefore you exist in the subjective reality you have now, momentarily, created.

Now, Rene, imagine if you lived within a psychedelic renaissaince...


--------------------
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

-- Herbert Spencer


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OfflineJhadAgainstReality
the only thinglonger than myname is my penis

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 403
Loc: england
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: can anything be definitively proved? [Re: moogle]
    #1991063 - 10/08/03 08:57 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I wonder why the author of this thread posted it.

JhadAgainstReality-Why did you post it? What was your motivation?


it's a question i ask myself daily, and one that has remained and may always remain unanswered


the more you guys reply, the more freaked out i get :frown:


--------------------
"Listen Bush, i dont have any weapons. are you listening asshole? i dont have any fucking weapons! whats your problem, you fucking prick? Do you, like, WANT to go to war or something?! hey! whats all that laughter? whats so fucking funny?! Bush? BUSH! *click* Hello? HELLO?"


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

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Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: catalyst777]
    #1992415 - 10/09/03 07:33 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

catalyst777 said:
I'm drinking a really nice glass of cabernet sauvignon right now. It's a real glass, trust me. We really do exist, although it would be an exercise in futility to try to prove that.
 




The first thing that you must remember is that there is no spoon (or glass!) :grin:

And Jhad, what happened to your signature? The beautiful woman morphed!  :frown:
Peace. 


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinenubious
1up on the rest

Registered: 10/20/02
Posts: 534
Loc: Canada
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Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: start25]
    #1992754 - 10/09/03 10:53 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

start25 said:
I disagree. A lot of people think they're wonderful, attractive, talented etc., while the masses of people would disagree. Some things are determined, I don't buy the karmic cycles or the "you make reality" philosophies. although sometimes I do see how the "you make reality" philosophy can play out in many peoples' lives.




I don't neccassarily buy the whole karmic cycle thing in one sense, but I think about it like this: I believe that A butterfly flapping it's wings in New York can cause a tidal wave in Hong Kong. If you can't agree with that metaphor, then don't bother reading further.
I (edit:)DON'T(/edit) think that Karma works on a one on one level, but the more people adding to the global Karmic cycle results in more people receiving that good Karma.

Just the other day me and a friend decided that that smell you sense when you walk into a little magic shop or a tarot card reading place is now going to be known as Karma.


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


Edited by nubious (10/11/03 09:00 AM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: can anything be definatively proved? [Re: nubious]
    #1992928 - 10/09/03 12:35 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

nubious said:
Just the other day me and a friend decided that that smell you sense when you walk into a little magic shop or a tarot card reading place is now going to be known as Karma. 




I see what you mean. The idea of that smell being called Karma can be passed along, just like karma is... or something. I don't care to explain. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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