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OfflinePsiloPsych
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Calcium propionate anyone? Preservatives help...
    #19768992 - 03/30/14 11:37 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I want to start trying Rye Flour in my PF-Teks. I have a large amount on hand from a bulk goods section and it has said fungicide in it. I now people have studied fungicides here, and after failing with the search engine, does anyone have experience with this chemical or input on how it might affect cubensis spores/myc? Thanks everyone.

I know a lot of people might say "make some bread then buy organic", and that's what I bought it for so I just might, but am poor and frugal, so will most likely at least just make an lc first and try that. If someone here has good info, I can skip a week or 2 and use multispore syringe. Anyone use inorganic rye/rye flour before? (Remember, it's a different chem than most other flour/grain preservatives). It could be valuable that the preservative in a whole class of substrates is usable.

Calcium propionate, also known as Calcium dipropionate or Mycoban, is a fungicide common in rye products. I've been reading some studies done on it's effectiveness and it seems that it is sorta narrow-minded as to what fungi it works on, spores or myc (It seems to work best on certain black-rots and rope bacteria common in rye). On many other fungal contams, it proved rather useless. That's true even in the higher %'s tested than in the (edible) amounts found in rye when compared with other food/flour preservatives.


Edited by PsiloPsych (03/30/14 11:43 PM)


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OfflinecronicrMFacebook
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Re: Calcium propionate anyone? Preservatives help... [Re: PsiloPsych]
    #19769206 - 03/31/14 12:27 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

fungicides stop spore germination but not mycelium, but still i would get new grain:shrug:


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OfflineQuexl
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Re: Calcium propionate anyone? Preservatives help... [Re: PsiloPsych]
    #19769298 - 03/31/14 12:45 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I agree, I'd just chuck that rye and use something else, even WBS or corn if you want to. It won't be worth the worry and bother to try cleaning it.

If you want to try though (and you'll never eliminate 100% of it), considering it's water soluble you could try just washing it over and over extremely well in warm water..?


--------------------
grain spawn bacteria info


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OfflinePsiloPsych
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Re: Calcium propionate anyone? Preservatives help... [Re: Quexl]
    #19769542 - 03/31/14 01:30 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Right on. Thank you for the advice. I knew most fungicides work on preventing spore germination, that's why I was going to get them going in a LC 1st. I also know that fungicides work in dozens of different ways. Are they all vicious spore killers?
  I tested a spore syringe on a couple cakes just to check for contams (home made syringe) before thinking about fungicides, and I got three small myc patches all around the same inoculation point. Admittedly that sounds like only a few spores got through a fungicide. With BRF I usually at least have better than 1/8 inoc. points on day 6. They all showed up around day 3 and are starting sorta slow. The 7 other inoculation points appear lifeless on day 6. Does this sound normal/reasonable for a rye flour pf-tek? (My temps are a little low. 70-80 ...still fine tuning my new incubation chamber).

Also still interested in peoples success and failure with inorganic rye flour specifically.


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OfflineQuexl
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Re: Calcium propionate anyone? Preservatives help... [Re: PsiloPsych]
    #19769667 - 03/31/14 01:57 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Don't get me started on that whole "organic" thing :lol: I assume you mean inorganic as in not recognized by the Organic Police. IMO it's exactly the same thing, and the title has more to do with it's resource consumption, production, and source than its composition (it's exactly the same thing but greenwashed).
If spores successfully germinated then the fungicide isn't as present as you may think. There's a very high degree of variability in how fast a cake of any kind colonizes from MS so it's hard to tell if it's hurting growth.
Sounds fine so far, to me! Keep going!


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grain spawn bacteria info


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OfflinePsiloPsych
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Re: Calcium propionate anyone? Preservatives help... [Re: Quexl]
    #19770008 - 03/31/14 03:29 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Sweet. Music to my ears. I thought that part of the word "Organic" was that fungicides, preservatives, etc., were left out at all steps of production. Do you disagree? But to hear someone with a good cultivation rating say that they succeed without worrying about it too much is good news in any case. From what I've read here @ the shroomery, most people say that fungicides are to be avoided at all costs. I'm also of the opinion that this seems too broad of a statement:

I've read several articles published by colleges, etc., which show this PARTICULAR preservative (being compared to others in these studies) to be considerably or completely ineffective when tested against broad groups of specific fungi species (just not necessarily the species it's particularly dangerous to). That's even when the concentrations were at 10-50x the dosage considered safe for human ingestion (as those in rye flour). They were testing this on different substrates, different fungal species, and from SPORE inoculation.

The main concern manufacturers face when choosing the appropriate preservative for their product is which one works best on the specific contams that their product is most likely to suffer from. Some work great on specific kinds of contams, but suck ass at many others (some preservatives even PROMOTE growth of certain fungi). With foods, they are vastly limited to what they can use due to the necessity of their product being 100% safe for humans.

Given that data, I theorize that this particular fungicide might be ineffective towards cubensis spores and/or myc. In such a preferred substrate as rye (and this is THEE preservative you will find there), I think finding this out could potentially be very productive in the honourable field of shroom growin'.


Edited by PsiloPsych (03/31/14 08:39 AM)


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OfflinePsiloPsych
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Re: Calcium propionate anyone? Preservatives help... [Re: PsiloPsych]
    #19771219 - 03/31/14 07:52 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Fuck. If there was one time I ever needed RR to step in, it's now. Not only does the guy have specific experience in the effects of individual preservatives in mushroom cultivation, but he swears by rye berries. Makes him a potential calcium propionate expert. Like I said though, our search engine failed me, and his warning on cultivation PM's has me too hesitant to ask. Read the top of the page when you go to PM the guy. Can I even ask him to take a look at this thread without being bitterly struck down?

Considering that I have experience growing cubes, so am not an all around "newb"(been hunting/picking psilocybes for DECADES, so I know a bit of mycology already), should this have been posted in advanced mycology forum?


Edited by PsiloPsych (03/31/14 08:47 AM)


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Offlineinvitro

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Re: Calcium propionate anyone? Preservatives help... [Re: PsiloPsych]
    #19771294 - 03/31/14 08:12 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

You can ask him to look at your thread, I've done it before. :sherlock:


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Calcium propionate anyone? Preservatives help... [Re: Quexl]
    #19772092 - 03/31/14 04:49 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Quexl said:
Don't get me started on that whole "organic" thing :lol: I assume you mean inorganic as in not recognized by the Organic Police.




I suppose this is the same corporate organic police who are proposing to allow pesticides on organic farms if other options 'failed'?

To the OP, organic agriculture is about far more than the lack of toxic chemicals.  It's about improving the soil from year to year.  Even if one uses no chemicals at all, he can't be organic certified if he can't prove the soil and runoff water, etc., improves every year.  Chemical agriculture destroys the soil and after 20 years or so it has to sit fallow for 20 more years as the non-organic farmer collects welfare (oops, CRP funds) from taxpayers like us.  Organic farming improves the soil and keeps it in constant production.

I wouldn't use fungicide treated rye grains, period.  The fungicide is applied after harvest so it can't be washed off, but you also don't know what other crap such as roundup was applied during growth.  When organic rye is available, use it for your own health and the health of the land.

Fungicides work to prevent or reduce spore germination.  The fact that it didn't stop all spore germination is just a reflection of the dangerous drawbacks of chemical agriculture.  You get the toxic, carcinogenic chemicals but just like with other pesticides, some insects, weeds, or molds, etc., survive to develop resistance and then pass it on to successive generations.  This means more and more of the chemical has to be used to control whatever it is they're poisoning the food supply in the first place to control.

Fungicides are not preservatives.  If you want to prevent mold on rye berries, simply follow well established sterile procedure.
RR


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OfflineQuexl
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Re: Calcium propionate anyone? Preservatives help... [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #19772160 - 03/31/14 05:16 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I suppose this is the same corporate organic police who are proposing to allow pesticides on organic farms if other options 'failed'?


Really? It wouldn't surprise me, it's important to them to sell the label. It reminds me of how we show our food has been irradiated by putting that tiny green flower on the package.


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OfflinePsiloPsych
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Re: Calcium propionate anyone? Preservatives help... [Re: Quexl]
    #19774162 - 04/01/14 02:44 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for the advice as always. Interesting info on inorganic farming too. I was thinking it would be great to find a "safe" chemical that could be added to subs  to keep contam down, but this might make one rethink whether or not it's best to promote a mushroom farming chemical race, even if this one did work out. Of course for most of the same reasons listed in large-scale agricultural practices.
For what it's worth to anyone following the thread though, it seems like the rye flour is at least working out ok. I brought my temps up a bit and had several myc spots pop up around other inoc. points since just about 36hrs from checking last. Both jars seem to suddenly have a more promising future so I'll go ahead and make up the others. I'll just keep a LC on standby and take things from there. It'll be nice to rid my house from any remnants of that bread baking phase I went through.


Edited by PsiloPsych (04/01/14 04:42 AM)


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OfflineBodhiSci

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Re: Calcium propionate anyone? Preservatives help... [Re: PsiloPsych]
    #19863286 - 04/18/14 09:10 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I just ran across your post randomly off google.  I was actually hoping to use it in agar as an antibiotic similar to Fungi Perfecti's antibiotic malt agar.  I wanted to select a single genome to hopefully get better yields.  I happen to have some on hand that I got from my praying mantis supply (marked as a mold inhibitor).  The one that I think Fungi Perfecti uses is gentamycin sulfate.  Not absolutely necessary but it seems like it might be useful for agar and maybe even in low doses to prevent contamination in substrate.  Perhaps I will try it in one jar.  How did it turn out?


--------------------
Disclaimer:  All of my posts are regarding legal species, are purely theoretical, or are for research outside of the United States.


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Offlinespore baby
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Re: Calcium propionate anyone? Preservatives help... [Re: PsiloPsych]
    #19863348 - 04/18/14 09:24 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

.


Edited by spore baby (12/14/14 02:33 PM)


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