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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Salvia Insight
    #1983213 - 10/06/03 07:02 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I just came down after smoking some 10x, and after reflecting on my trip and putting the pieces together, I realized that we are all like individual cells in a body. We may seem insignificant, but in truth, we serve a purpose. Alone, we are useless, but together we can all make it. Together, we can accomplish something great. Together we serve a purpose. We are all one body, one mind, one soul. Working together as one, there is no limit to what we can achieve. We must learn to get past our egos and work as a collective consciousness. We are a part of something greater than ourselves. When we discover what our purpose is--and it doesn't even have to be a major one--we can work towards a greater, more balanced, more harmonious reality.

/drug-induced rant


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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: Salvia Insight [Re: silversoul7]
    #1983225 - 10/06/03 07:33 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I know that feeling. In my last trip I felt and saw myself as a part of something vastly bigger than my ego. But I think that's probably a common feeling when you experience ego-loss.
But I don't think people are really connected in a universal consciousness. It's just a feeling I get when the chemical Salvinorin A warps my mind. I wouldn't want to be in a universal consciousness anyway. I like to have my own mind.
Salvia teaches me about my personality and lets me see what a strange organ my mind really is. But I don't take lessons from a psychedelic and apply them to the physical world, because under the influence of a drug you can never be an objective observer.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Salvia Insight [Re: cybrbeast]
    #1983231 - 10/06/03 07:42 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

But I don't think people are really connected in a universal consciousness. It's just a feeling I get when the chemical Salvinorin A warps my mind. I wouldn't want to be in a universal consciousness anyway. I like to have my own mind.



The way I see it, psychedelics such as Salvia put us in another state of consciousness in which we are more receptive to these kinds of insights. It's not just that the chemical is acting on your mind to produce hallucinations. It's putting you in touch with a part of your brain that you don't use much when your sober. It allows you to see the connectedness of things. It displaces your ego so you can understand this connectedness. Sure, you have your own mind, at the conscious and subconscious level, but psychedelics put us in touch with the superconscious--the universal consciousness.

Quote:

But I don't take lessons from a psychedelic and apply them to the physical world, because under the influence of a drug you can never be an objective observer.



I do. Ever since I tripped off of 5 grams of shrooms, I've been much more content with life. I feel I have a more intimate understanding of the structure of this reality due to psychedelics. If anything, I now understand how much more complex it really is than how it appears to us. And how are you any less objective on psychedelics than you are normally? I think if anything, you're more objective, since you don't have an ego.


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Re: Salvia Insight [Re: silversoul7]
    #1983308 - 10/06/03 09:34 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I don't think I'm in touch with another part of my brain while tripping. I just think that the normal parts work and communicate differently because of this chemical.

Why would there be a universal consciousness? Would it apply to only humans or all the beings in the universe? I think that intellegent beings somewhere else would have a completely different and uncompatible consciousness to our own. Because they would have evolved along a different path.

I believe our mind is incredibly complex and that's why it can act so strange under the influence of pshychedelics.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Salvia Insight [Re: cybrbeast]
    #1983427 - 10/06/03 11:11 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

cybrbeast said:
I don't think I'm in touch with another part of my brain while tripping. I just think that the normal parts work and communicate differently because of this chemical.



But that doesn't invalidate the experience. It simply means that you're in a different state of mind. Just as dreams put you in touch with your subconscious, psychedelics put you in touch with your superconscious. That doesn't mean that every hallucination is real, but the insights gained from such an experience should not just be discarded just because you're on drugs. Your brain sends chemical messages anyway, so why is it any less real when those chemical messages are caused by drugs?

Quote:

Why would there be a universal consciousness? Would it apply to only humans or all the beings in the universe? I think that intellegent beings somewhere else would have a completely different and uncompatible consciousness to our own. Because they would have evolved along a different path.



It would apply universally. Think of a colony of ants, and how they all act as a function of the colony. We are capable of this if we overcome our egos. You are correct in asserting that other intelligent beings would have a different consciousness than us, but they would have the same superconsciousness. We didn't evolve a superconsciousness. It was already there. What we have evolved to do is to tune in to it through psychedelics and meditation.

Quote:

I believe our mind is incredibly complex and that's why it can act so strange under the influence of pshychedelics.



It is indeed complex, but it is only a fragment of the complex reality we live in. We are like branches on a tree--separate entities, yet connected at a certain point. The trunk would be the superconsciousness. So you see, it's not that we aren't individual beings, but we are also one entity, made up of many.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Salvia Insight [Re: silversoul7]
    #1983599 - 10/06/03 12:38 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The way I see it, we are all trillions of subjective entities, having individual experiences, for the benefit of all-that-is. Like you said, cells in a body. Individual, yet all part of a whole. Ego is the only thing that makes us individual, our own projection of 'personality' into the world, that gives us the illusion of separation. Some find that thought comfortable enough to live with.

On the supraconsciousness level, there is only one entity. It is composed of an infinite number of beings, but it is all the same. There are many different levels of 'oneness' beyond our plane, which manifest in any number of ways, from hatred and greed of the 'hungry  ghosts', or the neverending bliss and euphoria of the higher realms. At the current physical 3rd dimension, of course almost everyone is going to think they are individual, separated...that's the nature of the 3rd density. Once you start approaching the idea of connectivity, unification and the like.. you are toying with 4th dimension thought processes  :cool:

If you have never done so I would suggest reading the "Tibetan Book of the Dead", as it deals with the 'other realms', in a very straightforward and thorough manner.

Trees don't have a problem just being. They are a tree and they are in touch with their treeism, and they realize they are just an individual expression of creation, as are all things. The purpose of life is to experience and learn. This fragmentation of reality accomplishes that purpose quite well. 


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Re: Salvia Insight [Re: silversoul7]
    #1983607 - 10/06/03 12:41 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Heh, Silversoul was going to get five shrooms from me, until I realized.....





... that I already gave him five shrooms a long time ago! :grin:

Keep the interesting stuff, coming man, you really tapped into something here.

And just read Shroomism's post, and the same goes for you! :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Edited by fireworks_god (10/06/03 12:47 PM)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Salvia Insight [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1983783 - 10/06/03 02:11 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

> /drug-induced rant

Even if everything you said was a complete fiction (which I don't believe to be the case), would it not be good for people to live their life the way you describe? Drug-induced or not, the rant was a good one. Too bad something like a thumbprint isn't required for graduation. If it were, I think the world would be a much nicer place to live.


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Re: Salvia Insight [Re: silversoul7]
    #1984026 - 10/06/03 03:55 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

But why should there be a universal consciousness? What's it's purpose? And why can't we measure or see it with physical instruments.
I'm not a believer in anything except science (if you call that a belief). I sea no reason in believing in the universal consciousness, well maybe only if your afraid of being alone and an individual puny being.
The only proof for this theory is anecdotal, and I won't accept theories that are solely based on anecdotal evidence. If people did that, then we would still be believing in witches, seamonsters, gosts, aliens etc. Some people still believe in this. I don't have a problem with that, and if they feel happy about it they should continue. But IMO they are just misguided.
Quote:

but the insights gained from such an experience should not just be discarded just because you're on drugs. Your brain sends chemical messages anyway, so why is it any less real when those chemical messages are caused by drugs?



Sure, insights gained in a trip can apply to the real world, but IMO not when dealing with physics. If my mind says 2+2=5 in a trip, then I don't start believing mathematics is wrong.
Through evolution our brain has evolved, and when we are not under the influence of anything it functions efficient and as it's supposed to do. Dreaming is also an essential part of survival of the brain (but we don't exactly know why, yet). Introduced drugs will alter the working of the brain in irregular ways and that's why it's less real than our normal senses. 

edit:
Hehe, my post number is 666 now  :devil:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Salvia Insight [Re: cybrbeast]
    #1984128 - 10/06/03 04:44 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

> Hehe, my post number is 666 now

Doh! Posts: 667... Time waits on nobody!

My best friend in college used to wear number "665" on all his sports jerseys (intramural sports) with the name "almost evil".


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Salvia Insight [Re: cybrbeast]
    #1984266 - 10/06/03 05:40 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

cybrbeast said:
But why should there be a universal consciousness? What's it's purpose? And why can't we measure or see it with physical instruments.
I'm not a believer in anything except science (if you call that a belief). I sea no reason in believing in the universal consciousness, well maybe only if your afraid of being alone and an individual puny being.



How do you measure consciousness? You simply have to be aware of it. It's not something I can prove to you--only something I have experienced myself. If you are skeptical, that is your right, and I applaud you for it. I myself would once have expressed skepticism about this subject, and even these things I believe in I am not 100% sure of. But once you've experienced something first-hand, it's hard to discount it, even if you can't prove it to anyone else. Just remember that even science cannot be trusted 100%. Just because you drop a ball off of a roof a hundred times and it falls to the ground a hundred times, you still don't know for a fact that it won't fly up into the atmosphere next time. You would be right to assume that based on the pattern you observe, it will probably fall to the ground, but you still don't know it for certain.

Quote:

The only proof for this theory is anecdotal, and I won't accept theories that are solely based on anecdotal evidence. If people did that, then we would still be believing in witches, seamonsters, gosts, aliens etc. Some people still believe in this. I don't have a problem with that, and if they feel happy about it they should continue. But IMO they are just misguided.



Continue to be unconvinced. That's fine by me. My beliefs don't require that you believe them as well. All I know is what I have experienced, and until someone can actually disprove these experiences, then I will continue to believe in them.

Quote:

Quote:

but the insights gained from such an experience should not just be discarded just because you're on drugs. Your brain sends chemical messages anyway, so why is it any less real when those chemical messages are caused by drugs?



Sure, insights gained in a trip can apply to the real world, but IMO not when dealing with physics. If my mind says 2+2=5 in a trip, then I don't start believing mathematics is wrong.
Through evolution our brain has evolved, and when we are not under the influence of anything it functions efficient and as it's supposed to do. Dreaming is also an essential part of survival of the brain (but we don't exactly know why, yet). Introduced drugs will alter the working of the brain in irregular ways and that's why it's less real than our normal senses.



Of course you shouldn't take every thought you have during a trip as gospel truth. That would be foolish. If I have a thought during a trip that blatantly contradicts the laws of science or math, I'll examine that thought when I become sober again, and discard it. As for evolution, you assume that (a) psychedelic drugs cannot play a part in our evolution, and (b) our most functional brain state(sobriety) is the most honest(closest to reality). Have you considered the possibility that (a) psychedelics are furthering human evolution, just as an increase in our consumption of fish may have played a factor in the development of the human brain, or (b) that our most perceptive brain state(the psychedelic experience or deep meditation) may not necessarily be the most practical, functional one for day-to-day activities? BTW, a brain state similar to the psychedelic experience can be achieved through deep meditation, which requires no introduced drugs.


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Re: Salvia Insight [Re: cybrbeast]
    #1984354 - 10/06/03 06:20 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

cybrbeast said:
But why should there be a universal consciousness? What's it's purpose? And why can't we measure or see it with physical instruments.

The only proof for this theory is anecdotal, and I won't accept theories that are solely based on anecdotal evidence.




Why should there be consciousness in the first place, universal or singular? Does it have a purpose? How can it be determined objectively? Can you measure consciousness with physical instruments? I.e. does the brain emitting an EM-field prove that consciousness is limited to and located in the brain?

So you have your physical instruments. How do you know your senses aren't cheating you out of the real reality by deforming it? If that were the case, how could you read the physical instrument decently and draw objective conclusions?

How do you know you're a conscious being in the first place, and how would you prove it to me without anecdotal evidence?

What I'm saying is: truth is belief.


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Re: Salvia Insight [Re: silversoul7]
    #1984421 - 10/06/03 06:43 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
But once you've experienced something first-hand, it's hard to discount it, even if you can't prove it to anyone else.



I have experienced this. Last time I used Salvia, I felt connected to many different lives. But I only found this an interesting experience caused by a hallucinogen. That doesn't prove to me it's true. It just proves that Salvia can make me feel some pretty strange and interesting things.

Quote:

and until someone can actually disprove these experiences, then I will continue to believe in them.



If you believe in science then I would say it is already disproved. Physically we just can't be connected to other beings and most certainly not over the distances you are talking about.

Quote:

As for evolution, you assume that (a) psychedelic drugs cannot play a part in our evolution, and (b) our most functional brain state(sobriety) is the most honest(closest to reality). Have you considered the possibility that (a) psychedelics are furthering human evolution, just as an increase in our consumption of fish may have played a factor in the development of the human brain or



Either I don't understand evolution correctly or you don't. Genetics are passed on through mating. Substances we consume don't change our genome (unless they're radioactive or something).
So the only way psychedelics can steer evolution is if psychedelic users got more children than other people.
Meat in general helped to evolve our brains. But that's only because a big brain needs a good source of protein. So once we started eating meat, it became possible for our brains to expand witout starving us.

Quote:

(b) that our most perceptive brain state(the psychedelic experience or deep meditation) may not necessarily be the most practical, functional one for day-to-day activities? BTW, a brain state similar to the psychedelic experience can be achieved through deep meditation, which requires no introduced drugs.



Evolution is all about survival. We got big brains which helped us enormously in our daily activities. We could make tools, communicate etc. In evolutionary terms there's no benifit to having a superconsciousness so it shouldn't have evolved.

Do you believe every being is connected to the universal consciousness? Even bacteria? If not, at what stage and why would it have evolved?


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Re: Salvia Insight [Re: Alan Stone]
    #1984433 - 10/06/03 06:50 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Why should there be consciousness in the first place, universal or singular? Does it have a purpose? How can it be determined objectively? Can you measure consciousness with physical instruments? I.e. does the brain emitting an EM-field prove that consciousness is limited to and located in the brain?




Our consciousness has a purpose in that it helps us with our survival. Consciousness made us care for eachother which made sure our survival chances as a species increased. It probably aided survival of humans in many more ways.
We might not be able to now, but in the future when we finally figure the whole brain out, we will be able to say we have a consciousness because of these connections and these centres in our brain.

Quote:

So you have your physical instruments. How do you know your senses aren't cheating you out of the real reality by deforming it? If that were the case, how could you read the physical instrument decently and draw objective conclusions? 



Ofcourse I can never be sure. Reality could be an illusion. But I'm saying science is more reliable than beliefs etc. Our physical instruments and theories have proved themselves to work.


I need more sceptics on this board :smile:
But I guess that psychedelic users are more spiritually inclined than the general population.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Salvia Insight [Re: cybrbeast]
    #1984534 - 10/06/03 07:24 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

cybrbeast said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
But once you've experienced something first-hand, it's hard to discount it, even if you can't prove it to anyone else.



I have experienced this. Last time I used Salvia, I felt connected to many different lives. But I only found this an interesting experience caused by a hallucinogen. That doesn't prove to me it's true. It just proves that Salvia can make me feel some pretty strange and interesting things.



Why would you even do Salvia if not to expand your mind? It's not a very recreational drug.

Quote:

Quote:

and until someone can actually disprove these experiences, then I will continue to believe in them.



If you believe in science then I would say it is already disproved. Physically we just can't be connected to other beings and most certainly not over the distances you are talking about.



You're taking things too literally here. It's not that our physical bodies are connected to other beings. If you look at everything on a subatomic level, you'll see that we're all made of the same matter, and if you could look any closer, you'd find that all matter is condensed energy. Everything is made of energy. It is the universal fabric. We are all one because we are all one substance. Also, have you heard of the holographic model of the universe? Someone posted an interesting article about it a while back. Here's an exerpt:

Bohm believes the reason subatomic particles are able to remain in contact with one another regardless of the distance separating them is not because they are sending some sort of mysterious signal back and forth, but because their separateness is an illusion. He argues that at some deeper level of reality such particles are not individual entities, but are actually extensions of the same fundamental something.

Quote:

Quote:

As for evolution, you assume that (a) psychedelic drugs cannot play a part in our evolution, and (b) our most functional brain state(sobriety) is the most honest(closest to reality). Have you considered the possibility that (a) psychedelics are furthering human evolution, just as an increase in our consumption of fish may have played a factor in the development of the human brain or



Either I don't understand evolution correctly or you don't. Genetics are passed on through mating. Substances we consume don't change our genome (unless they're radioactive or something).
So the only way psychedelics can steer evolution is if psychedelic users got more children than other people.
Meat in general helped to evolve our brains. But that's only because a big brain needs a good source of protein. So once we started eating meat, it became possible for our brains to expand witout starving us.



Evolution is more than simply a physical thing. The ability to make fire was a vital step in our evolution. Perhaps the ability to expand one's consciousness and experience the divine might prove to be equally important.

Quote:

Quote:

(b) that our most perceptive brain state(the psychedelic experience or deep meditation) may not necessarily be the most practical, functional one for day-to-day activities? BTW, a brain state similar to the psychedelic experience can be achieved through deep meditation, which requires no introduced drugs.



Evolution is all about survival. We got big brains which helped us enormously in our daily activities. We could make tools, communicate etc. In evolutionary terms there's no benifit to having a superconsciousness so it shouldn't have evolved.



Need I remind you once again that the superconscious is NOT something we evolved? It was there long before us. It is the very essence of reality. Some might call it God. Others might call it the Tao, or the Atman. It is the living universe--the one inexpressible truth that binds this reality together. As for the evolutionary benefits of being aware of this divine truth, I believe that this awareness, which can be achieved through psychedelics or meditation, can save humanity from its own self-destruction. When we realize that we are all one, and come to a better understanding of the nature of reality, we cannot help but humble ourselves, and come to realize the absurdity of such ego games as greed, arrogance, vengeance, violence, and consumerism. If mankind does not learn to overcome these things, then we are doomed to destroy ourselves. If, however, we learn to tame our egos and live in harmony and balance, then there is hope for our survival.

Quote:

Do you believe every being is connected to the universal consciousness? Even bacteria? If not, at what stage and why would it have evolved?



As I said, EVERYTHING is connected to the universal consciousness. It is the very substance of this reality.


--------------------


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Re: Salvia Insight [Re: silversoul7]
    #1985228 - 10/06/03 11:35 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

read "Theory of Everything" by Ken Wilber. Everything is a part/whole, both a whole, made up of parts, and parts, that make up wholes. They are called holons. Check it out. Really incredible. Makes me almost accept those gothic fucks who shop at hot topic trying to be punk by spending 60 dollars on a pair of pants. Almost.


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Re: Salvia Insight [Re: silversoul7]
    #1986123 - 10/07/03 06:52 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Just remember that even science cannot be trusted 100%.  Just because you drop a ball off of a roof a hundred times and it falls to the ground a hundred times, you still don't know for a fact that it won't fly up into the atmosphere next time.  You would be right to assume that based on the pattern you observe, it will probably fall to the ground, but you still don't know it for certain.




Exactly. There is nothing in an observed pattern that makes the next number or occurence fit perfectly within the pattern. The circumstances that produce the pattern are open to change, just like everything else in this universe is. Fuck, the only rule that is constantly observed in the universe is Change. Nothing ever remains the same forever. (heh, quite the paradox, the only thing that never changes is the law of Change.. :grin:)

Quote:

cybrbeast said:
If you believe in science then I would say it is already disproved. Physically we just can't be connected to other beings and most certainly not over the distances you are talking about.




Science doesn't disprove. It proves. And, as I remember hearing (not a science knowledgeable, myself), every particle in the universe can instantly communicate with any other particle...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Salvia Insight [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1989571 - 10/08/03 11:28 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

There are things like quantum-entanglement. The orientation of one entangled electron tells you the orientation of the other. Even when they are seperated over distanced.
But I don't believe our brain or consciousness work on a quantum level.


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Re: Salvia Insight [Re: cybrbeast]
    #1990705 - 10/08/03 06:47 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

But I don't believe our brain or consciousness work on a quantum level.



Why not?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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