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Offlinestart25
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Re: Did we really go to the moon? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1987300 - 10/07/03 03:43 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I can't remember all the details, but I think a number of them were suicides, or labeled such. One that I'm sure was a suicide was the guy that was writing some kind of report on the Apollo missions, he mysteriously died while writing the report weeks after the landing. It's not an error in logic. It's not an error in logic. An event takes place. A number of individuals involved with the event/project die through suspicious means. That makes me questions things, but yeah, if you're another one of the sheep I wouldn't either- just a coincidence.

And I have read both sides of the argument, I'm an impartial observer. Unlike most people, i don't love myself enough that admitting I'm wrong is a big deal. Both sides present strong arguments that I will never be able to verify, unless I build my own spacecraft, get one of the exact space suits the astronauts in question had, go to the moon, take my own pictures, and insert the American flag into the moon's surface. Did you see the reply NASA released after the moon landing hoax show, it was exactly as I stated in my first post- angry and incomplete.




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InvisibletrendalM Happy Birthday!
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Re: Did we really go to the moon? [Re: start25]
    #1987594 - 10/07/03 05:24 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Both sides present strong arguments that I will never be able to verify

No, the "hoax" supporters present only uninformed guesses on why things appear the way they are, while those of us who know that we really did land on the moon understand why things appear the way they are instead of just guessing  :wink:

I think the big hurdle here is that this happened in outer space and in very low to zero gravity environments. Because most of us have never or at least rarely experience low or zero-g environments, we do not understand the physics behind them. Things may seem strange and "faked" in low-g environments to those of us used to Earth gravity (not to mention an atmosphere!).


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: Did we really go to the moon? [Re: trendal]
    #1987600 - 10/07/03 05:26 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

May I ask you know so much about the mechanics of space travel and zero g enviroments?


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InvisibletrendalM Happy Birthday!
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Re: Did we really go to the moon? [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #1987624 - 10/07/03 05:33 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I read a lot of physics  :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Offlinestart25
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Re: Did we really go to the moon? [Re: trendal]
    #1987643 - 10/07/03 05:39 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

of the entire list of faults that hoax supporters claim, few have to do with intense physics and comprehension of zero g gravity. many arise from the same way you get your information(proof): reading.

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InvisibletrendalM Happy Birthday!
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Re: Did we really go to the moon? [Re: start25]
    #1987763 - 10/07/03 06:14 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Show me one.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Did we really go to the moon? [Re: start25]
    #1989029 - 10/08/03 01:09 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

start25 said:
I can't remember all the details, but I think a number of them were suicides, or labeled such. One that I'm sure was a suicide was the guy that was writing some kind of report on the Apollo missions, he mysteriously died while writing the report weeks after the landing. It's not an error in logic. It's not an error in logic. An event takes place. A number of individuals involved with the event/project die through suspicious means. That makes me questions things, but yeah, if you're another one of the sheep I wouldn't either- just a coincidence.





I guess it just depends on how much you read into it. If you really kept up on the whole thing, knowing who was working here and who was working there, and then afterwards, one person here commits suicide and this one here dies of mysterious means, you would be more prepared to make conclusions.

But, a lot of what was going on was classified. Back then, there was a serious information war with the Russians. What the United States government was working on was not something they did not want the Russians to get their hands on.

So, maybe they were killed, not because there was a coverup, not because it was a hoax, but to protect the information from the Russians? What if there was another, even more important, classified project that the ones that died were also working on? Maybe something involved with putting a rocket into space and then crashing into Russia with diseases and viruses? What if there were so unknown to the general populace that their effects on these people (let's say that perhaps they came into contact with them) made them die mysteriously to those that did not know?

Maybe the Russians got a hold of them, trying to get certain information out of them, and they refused and then were disposed of?

What if their lifes sucked, NASA wasn't paying them enough, and their wives (or gay boyfriends) were going to leave them?

There is no way for one of us who knows barely anything about something except for what information was released through public means could ever know what really happened. Unless you worked for NASA or some government agency involved back then, and was privleged to all of the underworkings of the government, I don't think you could start to make conclusions on such.

Me? A sheep? I haven't blindly accepted something as truth with no way of even sort of knowing anything about what happened.. the true characteristics of a sheep.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

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Offlinestart25
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Re: Did we really go to the moon? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1990312 - 10/08/03 02:09 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

OK. The secrecy and circumstance of the cold war era is a cogent possibility pertaining to the meanings of the deaths. But since our government continues to this day with a veil of secrecy one will never know for sure. I never said the deaths indicated the moon landing was a hoax, I simply said they made me question the events that transpired within the weeks prior, one of which was the moon landing. That encompasses the possibility that something happened on the Apollo mission, one prospect being that the moon landing could have been a hoax.

Trendal- Hoax supporters claim that there are powerful radiation belts around the earth. They claim the space suits were a joke; they could never sustain life in the heat of the sun or the cold of an unlighted moon. They claim that the pictures and lighting are very sketchy; also some of the pictures have odd shadow formations. They claim that based on all the United States' prior missions, and the state of their space program, the odds were nearly impossible that the difficult mission to the moon would be successful. They also point out that we stopped going back, although that one is somewhat silly because no one cared after the other missions. They also used the mysterious deaths as point. They claim that there were no stars in the background. They propose an entire, and quite easy way to stage the entire moon landing. The only points that have to do with zero g gravity and physics are the blast crater, kicking up dirt and the waving flag.

Call me dense, dumb whatever pleases you, but don't give me links or point by point response, because I assure you I have read both sides of the argument. Do you have a PhD in physics or astronomy? Do you have years of experience with photography, lighting etc. Have you actually seen the space suits, studied them. Have you done in depth research into the state of space exploration before the missions? If not then I don?t need you to explain anything to me. If you have a lot of those credentials, than your word is more authoritative and by all means, please enlighten me with your theories. Otherwise, you read and compute information just as I do. And back when they thought the earth was flat, I doubt it was a conspiracy theorist behind that logic, rather the "educated" scientific establishment perpetuating another theory.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Did we really go to the moon? [Re: start25]
    #1990325 - 10/08/03 02:16 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

start25 said:
The only points that have to do with zero g gravity and physics are the blast crater,




... The engines being slowly turned down...

Quote:

kicking up dirt




Didn't the dirt kicked up follow a pattern that would only be replicable on the Moon or in a specially controlled area, back then not too feasable?

Quote:


and the waving flag.





Now, I have taken poles and put them in the ground before.. if the ground isn't too hard, usually turning the pole back and forth, spinning it while keeping some downwards pressure is enough to get it into the ground... and if anything like.. oh, I don't know, a flag happened to be attached to the top of the pole, the back and forth motions would cause the flag to wave back and forth...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Did we really go to the moon? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1990429 - 10/08/03 02:51 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

> Do you have a PhD in physics or astronomy?

:smile:

> They claim the space suits were a joke; they could never sustain life in the heat of the sun or the cold of an unlighted moon.

We had already developed "space suits" at the time for high altitude spy plane pilots.  We also had space suits for all of the mercury and gemini missions into space, including space walks.  If we could have people floating around in space (gemini missions) and live, then I think they would probably do fine on the moon as well.

> They claim that the pictures and lighting are very sketchy; also some of the pictures have odd shadow formations.

Lack of understanding of physics.  All of the lighting oddities in the photos are easily reproducable.  The photos are correct, from a physics/optics standpoint.

> They claim that based on all the United States' prior missions, and the state of their space program, the odds were nearly impossible that the difficult mission to the moon would be successful.

Show me the science or statistics behind this claim.  Until then, it is hear-say and means nothing.  I guess all of the mercury and gemini launches, not to mention the apollo launches where we didn't land don't really count for anything towards experience.

> They also point out that we stopped going back, although that one is somewhat silly because no one cared after the other missions.

We went to prove that we could get there first.  A battle won in the cold war.  The trips were expensive and dangerous and congress wanted to spend money on another victory rather than repeating the same one over and over.

> They also used the mysterious deaths as point.

There are lots of mysterious deaths all the time.  There were many during the filming of the exorsist... a conspiracy there as well?

> They claim that there were no stars in the background.

And there shouldn't be any stars in the background!!!  Do you see stars during the day here on earth?  NO!  Why?  Because the sun is so bright that it overpowers the stars.  Where they on the lit side of the moon or the dark side?

The sky was black because there is no atmosphere on the moon.  The stars were not there because the sun was out.  Stars shine when the sun is down, which doesn't happen on the bright side of the moon.  Without an atmosphere the sky will look black regardless of the sun being out or not.  Simple physics.

> They propose an entire, and quite easy way to stage the entire moon landing.

It is easy to propose... lets see it in action.  Oh, and make sure they get all of the background physics correct, just like NASA did... :smile:

> The only points that have to do with zero g gravity and physics are the blast crater, kicking up dirt and the waving flag

The "blast crater" shouldn't exist, and .... drum roll... doesn't.  Gravity is very low on the moon, and the engine spread the impulse of the thrust over a large area resulting in very little displacement of the moon surface (kicking up dirt, etc).

The waving flag is simple harmonic motion.  It is being held 'out' by a rod, not the wind.  With no atmosphere there is very little friction to dampen or stop the oscillations.


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Offlinestart25
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Re: Did we really go to the moon? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1990430 - 10/08/03 02:51 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

oh my god, I wasn't even challenging those aspects, I happen to agree with the moon landing supporters pretty much on those.

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Offlinestart25
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Re: Did we really go to the moon? [Re: Seuss]
    #1990479 - 10/08/03 03:18 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

physics can't explain all the problems with the lights, shadows and photography, has nothign to do with half of it.

you didn't address the temperature issues in regards to the space suits. from what I read the temperatures in the sun would be something like 180-200 degrees f, and the suits could not stand that, they had some cooling apparatus but it was hardly capable of keeping the astronauts cool at those temps.

I'm not going to go do all the reseach in regards to the state of NASA, I'm going off other people's research that I read when I cared about this a lot more. It's on the web, go search for things other than those that NASA and the gov. create.

Mysterious deaths- oh please, we're talking about a number of mysterious deaths labeled suicides within a government agency, a bit different.

Your explanation for not seeing the stars is possible, although I'm not sure. I know that when the sun hits earth, it creates colors when it's light bounces off all the little molecules, so if sunlight hit the moon how come it just wouldn't be complete white light everywhere since there is no atmosphere? If not then with no atmosphere you should be able to the stars? I'm not arguing here, just trying to understand this point.

they did stage it, a movie did it a few years later.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Did we really go to the moon? [Re: start25]
    #1990493 - 10/08/03 03:26 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

> you didn't address the temperature issues in regards to the space suits.

The suits are layered and have a liquid cooling system built into them. The giant backpack they wore had a heat exchanger/heater/cooler built into it and regulated the temperature inside of the suit. The outside of the suit could be very hot while the inside would be just fine.

Also, without atmosphere, heat transfer works a lot differently that what we are used to. The suits were white and reflected most of the heat back away from the suit.

> so if sunlight hit the moon how come it just wouldn't be complete white light

Because there was nothing for the light to reflect off of. If the light doesn't reflect off something, then you do not see it... hence a black sky during the day.

Think of a flashlight. If you shine a flashlight across your line of sight, do you see the beam of light or the particles inside the beam of light? If you look closely you will notice that you only see light where there is a small airborn particle for the light to reflect off of... or the spot on the wall where the light also reflects off of back to your eyes.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Invisibleadrug

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Re: Did we really go to the moon? [Re: Seuss]
    #1990542 - 10/08/03 03:50 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I don't know if any of you have heard of Richard Hoagland (author of the The Monuments of Mars)...this really doesn't have anything to do with the moon landing per se, although he does discuss a theory on his website that artifacts WERE in fact found on the moon. I'm not going to claim Hoagland is necessarily credible or correct, but he has more knowledge than the average conspiracy theorist quack, having worked for NASA. I've been reading this site for years, although with a touch of skepticism. If anyone picks apart everything NASA does, its this man. They hate him for it too. :smirk: Here's his website, lots of stuff to wade through.

http://www.enterprisemission.com/     

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InvisibletrendalM Happy Birthday!
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Re: Did we really go to the moon? [Re: start25]
    #1990976 - 10/08/03 06:26 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Trendal- Hoax supporters claim that there are powerful radiation belts around the earth. They claim the space suits were a joke; they could never sustain life in the heat of the sun or the cold of an unlighted moon. They claim that the pictures and lighting are very sketchy; also some of the pictures have odd shadow formations. They claim that based on all the United States' prior missions, and the state of their space program, the odds were nearly impossible that the difficult mission to the moon would be successful. They also point out that we stopped going back, although that one is somewhat silly because no one cared after the other missions. They also used the mysterious deaths as point. They claim that there were no stars in the background. They propose an entire, and quite easy way to stage the entire moon landing. The only points that have to do with zero g gravity and physics are the blast crater, kicking up dirt and the waving flag.

When you remove everything from the hoax supporters' argument that can be removed through straightforward science...what are you left with?

"they couldn't have gone to the moon...the technology wasn't good enough"

And maybe some ramblings about "suspicious" deaths.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineSpokesman
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Re: Did we really go to the moon? [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #1991009 - 10/08/03 06:39 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ChiefThunderbong said:
Did we really go to the moon?




I know I didn't........................... :lol: well there was that one time..............hmm.........


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Did we really go to the moon? [Re: trendal]
    #1991059 - 10/08/03 06:56 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

the arguement that our technology was not sufficient enough to go to the moon back then, would just about insinuate that even Russia themselves were in on the hoax...which overall, if you think about it, is pretty absurd,...if Russia could have done it, then so could we... and Russia was the first fuckin country to send a man into orbit around the earth :eek:  -gasp- how come nobody even mentioned this...so, now with THAT in mind, is it still too unbelievable that we could've went a lil step further and landed on the moon? Gee, probably not. 
And Nasa was indeed correct when they say that it would've costed way more to fake the whole damn thing then do just do it..cuz its not JUST the capture of the moon landing, but the actual taking off the land...with a rocket...and coming back down...with astronauts...WITH MOON ROCKS!....Doing ALL that, in front of the public...FAKE? ha..cmon...this just goes to show yall how stupid sheep can be


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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InvisibletrendalM Happy Birthday!
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Re: Did we really go to the moon? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #1991076 - 10/08/03 07:04 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

At the same time Neil Armstrong was taking his first steps on the moon, a Russian probe crashed on the other side of the moon. It was supposed to be Russia's first "visit" to the moon  :smirk:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Did we really go to the moon? [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #1991144 - 10/08/03 07:24 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I was just waiting for this -- the annual (or even more frequent) S&P "We didn't really go to the moon" thread. The following text is not directed at anyone in particular, by the way.

Apart from the fact that there are literally dozens of sites out there which thoroughly and convincingly debunk every single "argument" of the conspiracy theorists, without exception, here are two more reasons from my own personal experience.

As a member of the Woodstock generation, I was actually alive when this happened -- I watched it on TV, thirty hours of no sleep. You young whippersnappers may not be aware that in those days there was a subspecies of nerd known as the Ham Radio Operator. Thousands of them spread all over the globe. Although their equipment was laughably primitive by today's standards, it was plenty good enough to track the signal strength and the changing position of the source of the signals from the Apollo missions. Guess what? The signals came from exactly where they were supposed to, exactly when they were supposed to. You can't fake that.

My father was in the Canadian Navy, Communications branch. Not only were there more Ham nerds in his branch of the Navy than in the general population, but the Navy bases themselves had some pretty sophisticated (and in some cases still classified) RFDF equipment for tracking Russian aircraft, missiles, satellites, etc. part of the DEW line. The men on duty would routinely track the lunar missions both as a relief from boredom and also as a way to test and calibrate the equipment.

Also, although there are no Earth-based telescopes capable of spotting the debris left behind, there were instruments powerful enough to observe the flare from both the descent to the moon and the liftoff from the moon generated by the landing module. Check out back issues of various amateur astronomy magazines from that time, or even of Scientific American, Science, or any of dozens of other astronomical and general science journals to confirm this.

Speaking of Russians, has it occurred to any of you that the Russians would not have hesitated for a second to discredit claims of a lunar landing if they could have. This took place during the Cold War, the Space Race (remember that?), Viet Nam, the Domino Effect, Hungary, Berlin, Czechoslovakia... you name it, it was happening. Relations between the US and the USSR were not as warm and cuddly as they are today.

The reason the Soviets didn't challenge the lunar landings is that they couldn't, and the reason they couldn't is because there was nothing to disprove -- the landings happened.

Deal with it. Move on.

Come to think of it, we're pretty much overdue for the hundred and thirty-first crop circle thread anyway.

pinky


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Did we really go to the moon? [Re: Phred]
    #1991288 - 10/08/03 08:19 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Of course we went to the moon. So what if they didnt have advanced computers. People can do math too. gasp!
I've seen the pictures, all the evidence, bad shadows and all that.. it's not really there. It's all perfectly right.

It's not hard to do. If you gave me a rocket big enough, enough pencils and paper, I could hit the moon with that rocket. It's all just physics and geometry.

I find it hard to believe that people have so little faith in something as concrete as SCIENCE that they think it's not possible to get to the moon.

We could land a man on Pluto if we wanted. An asteroid. Any damned object in space you could possibly want, so long as we can track and predict its location. That's so laughably simple. And no, there's no 'radiation belt' around the earth.. that's silly cockamamy BS. There's no scientific reasoning behind it. I mean seriously.. that's just silly.

And about JFK? If you want to know who killed JFK: Lee Harvey Oswald. Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, and shot JFK from the book depository. With a magic bullet.


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grar.

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