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 Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 22 hours
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 slaves   4
#19786543 - 04/02/14 10:12 PM (10 years, 16 days ago) |
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I was watching a young kid, maybe 6 years old wandering behind his mother with a game system in his hands. He would sometimes run into his mother when she would stop. His technique seemed to be to stay inches away from her. Where she moved, he moved. He didn't seem to care where they were or where they were headed. And with this technique he remained out of others' way without even knowing anyone but mom was nearby. He also trailed close enough that the odds of hitting something that wasn't mom were slim to none.
But it reminded me of a sort of slavery. And it made me wonder about humanity. About the fact that at 6 years old this chap had become so infatuated with virtual reality that he created a system in physical reality to support more immersion in the fantasy. I wondered if we ever grow out of that. That infatuation with a reality more stimulating, more fulfilling, more in control than our present reality. Or whether we remain slaves to that infatuation, creating systems for ourselves which allow us to remain immersed in the fantasy.
..
...
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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HostileX420
Webcast Hunter!!!!!
Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 1,124
Loc: An American Shroomery 
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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 Re: slaves [Re: Kickle]
#19786707 - 04/02/14 10:47 PM (10 years, 16 days ago) |
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 now theres some food for thought right there!
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MY TRADE LIST
  
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 Man Cub
Jungle VIP
Registered: 03/14/14
Posts: 106
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Re: slaves [Re: Kickle]
#19786767 - 04/02/14 11:02 PM (10 years, 16 days ago) |
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I'm still a slave to my dreams and fantasies. Beats the shit out of "reality" any day. And yes, I will behave a certain way in this "reality" just enough to get by and when I'm by myself it's back to the dream world/video games/ etc where everything is beautiful and perfect.
The day when my "reality" becomes better than my dream life is when I'll stop.
Seems like we're stuck as a slave no matter what.
Slave in reality - From kid to adulthood. Following mom to avoid getting in trouble to be rewarded with video games is kinda like going to work and following the boss's orders to make money to go on vacations/drugs/escapism.
Slave to fantasy
Edited by Man Cub (04/02/14 11:06 PM)
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DustJuice
▇ ▅ █ ▅ ▇ ▂ ▃ ▁ ▁ ▅ ▃ ▅ ▅ ▄ ▅ ▇
Registered: 05/01/13
Posts: 419
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Re: slaves [Re: Kickle]
#19786796 - 04/02/14 11:10 PM (10 years, 16 days ago) |
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In an old Alan Watts video from the 70's he discusses humanities fascination in cameras, television and technological screens from an interesting point of view. He says that humanity is trying to create a reality that's "realer" and more immersive than what already is (objective reality).
He follows this train of thought for some time discussing advancements in computers and the beginnings of virtual reality from his limited 1970's perspective.
He covers all angles and facets of our fascination in the topic talking about the emergence of high definition and speculates about ultra HD and ultra ULTRA HD (which incidentally has happened, see 4k and the beginnings of 8k in Japanese broadcast and gaming in Japan, Facebook buying the Occulus Rift, Moores Law etc etc and on and on).
Finally he ends his sermon by saying what if our fascination in creating a world realer than what is objectively our reality now is a cycle and we (humanity, our spirit, our souls, whatever) have done this before. Even many times before.
He goes on to say that we could be living in a realty now that we created long ago. A realty that we created in the same way that we are trying to create a new one now (through technology and screens but that's just the beginning, imagine 200 years from now) and that we are going round the exact same cycle again and again trying to create a NEW reality more real than reality over and over. It defies our puny brains to contemplate.
Sure this isn't in the history books because it supersedes history. Our present history would be totally unrelated to what came before it. He's suggesting that our spirit, soul, whatever reached a point - by pursing this path - where an epic snap and shifting of consciousness was manifest and the reality that we take for granted became what we take for granted. It became so real that we forgot we created it, instead we have become lost in it for better or for worse. This is a very Hindu concept if your interested which is why its not surprising it came form Alan Watts.
In truth if you look at the way we're so focused on technology its exponential growth and our fascination in escaping into other worlds and screens that increase in clarity and "realness" every year it actually seems entirely plausible. It's a huge concept in theory but the evidence is there or rather here now  to support it.
Edited by DustJuice (04/02/14 11:12 PM)
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Man Cub
Jungle VIP
Registered: 03/14/14
Posts: 106
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Quote:
DustJuice said:
...He goes on to say that we could be living in a realty now that we created long ago...
...It became so real that we forgot we created it, instead we have become lost in it for better or for worse...
In truth if you look at the way we're so focused on technology its exponential growth and our fascination in escaping into other worlds and screens that increase in clarity and "realness" every year it actually seems entirely plausible. It's a huge concept in theory but the evidence is there or rather here now to support it.
This reminds me of the bible and many religions that seem promising. It's ingrained into video games/movies.
We don't know if it's created by men or real or whatever anymore. We've become lost in it and it's been repeated for who knows how long now.
And maybe that's all a religion is... something to believe in and strive for similar to wanting to live in a video game or a dream.
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,330
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Re: slaves [Re: Kickle]
#19787867 - 04/03/14 04:53 AM (10 years, 16 days ago) |
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We are slaves period. Slaves to stuffing food up our gullets and washing it away with water. Slaves to breathing air, sleeping and waking. Slaves to the limits of health and there constraints of illness.
Give me a shared virtual reality that is even better than the real thing, that is stable and allows me to shape my ow reality outside of the contraints of the physical world, and I will lay my earthly body down and you can upload me into it. You can use my organs for people who want to make it on earth and need transplants, I won't be needing them anymore in the realm of VR where clockspeed is such that an hour earth time is a thousand years VR time.
Imperfect VR platforms like THIS ONE I'll happily add to my earthly routine but when the grand one comes, I'm gonna be on board of that train.
Even better than the real thing? Count me in!
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Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here
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quinn
some kinda love
Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
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my dad passed on his love of soccer to me..
he filled my head with dreams of being a footballer, the pride and glory. you need to be able to fantasize to put up with all the hardship and be dedicated..
the best are those flow state moments where your full concentration is on the game, you become a living embodiment of your dream, tapping into a realm that only the gifted lovers of the sport ever enter..
it's p sweet. i feel the same thing would happen for musicians performing, or any other artist, really.
heck maybe it even happens for accountants.. 1000 spirits of forgotten forefathers quietly descend to their body (in an orderly fashion) and erupt onto the spreadsheet..
i think fantasy is always bound up in reality.. slavery is maybe more the exclusion of people from certain fantasies or the limiting of what they are allowed to fantasize about
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dripping with fantasy
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White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Re: slaves [Re: Kickle] 3
#19794060 - 04/04/14 11:27 AM (10 years, 15 days ago) |
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 22 hours
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lol
i guess this is the question that emerges for me: if we're so turned off by our lives that we want something else, does that mean that life is actually something to be revered and protected as is oft preached? or rather that life is terrifying and something we're continually trying to escape. And it is the fantasy life that we revere and protect.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Libertin
Absurdist
Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 959
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Re: slaves [Re: Kickle]
#19795201 - 04/04/14 03:42 PM (10 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Asante said:
We are slaves period. Slaves to stuffing food up our gullets and washing it away with water. Slaves to breathing air, sleeping and waking. Slaves to the limits of health and there constraints of illness.
Give me a shared virtual reality that is even better than the real thing, that is stable and allows me to shape my ow reality outside of the contraints of the physical world, and I will lay my earthly body down and you can upload me into it. You can use my organs for people who want to make it on earth and need transplants, I won't be needing them anymore in the realm of VR where clockspeed is such that an hour earth time is a thousand years VR time.
Imperfect VR platforms like THIS ONE I'll happily add to my earthly routine but when the grand one comes, I'm gonna be on board of that train.
Even better than the real thing? Count me in!
A disembodied mind is a utopian vision certainly.
According to the material sceptic world-view which dominates the "developed world", the mind is bound to the body - but does that really make us slaves?
Only in so far as the body is the foundation upon which the mind can exist and for now necessarily depends. Only in so far as a baby is a slave to its mother. The jewel of human consciousness yearns to be free from its supporting organism. Human childbirth is painful, the birth of human consciousness vastly more so. The sum total of human suffering is a tragic consideration. Our sublime consciousness is almost too precious, sensitive, delicate for this coarse material reality.
We must separate from our material bondage but I personally do not consider the transition as an emancipation from slavery. It is the grandest struggle, most glorious endeavour, transcendence.
Quote:
Kickle said:
...I wondered if we ever grow out of that. That infatuation with a reality more stimulating, more fulfilling, more in control than our present reality. Or whether we remain slaves to that infatuation, creating systems for ourselves which allow us to remain immersed in the fantasy...
Kickle, I've made an implicit reply to your questions but for clarity; I hope we don't, and can't imagine we will, ever grow out of that desire. Our suffering compels us to strive for ascension beyond the limitations of our current material realm. Given the accelerating rate of human progress what do you think is happening and will happen?
I think I understand why both of you have alluded to the notion of slavery but I offer you another perspective which sees us not as slaves, but as emergent artisan products of the universe. 
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TheSphinx
Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 70
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
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I wouldn't say we are slaves to much of anything these days,we still choose what controls and commands us. Choice is key in this equation.
-TheSphinx
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Warning, user gets high and makes bad posts.
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Sse
Saṃsāra
Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
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"leaves of words:
autumn colors
a still mountain."
-Jomei 1766
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"Springs of water welling from the fire"
"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 22 hours
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Kickle, I've made an implicit reply to your questions but for clarity; I hope we don't, and can't imagine we will, ever grow out of that desire. Our suffering compels us to strive for ascension beyond the limitations of our current material realm. Given the accelerating rate of human progress what do you think is happening and will happen?
Well we could debate the use of the word progress in regards to humanity but I don't think it's necessary. What I see happening is nothing resembling ascension. I see people either dying or trying hard not to die. While it is possible that humanity will overcome mortality, it seems that death/decay is rather fundamental to form existing in the universe. The idea of overcoming death is IMO full on fantasy.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Sse
Saṃsāra
Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
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Re: slaves [Re: Kickle]
#19795435 - 04/04/14 04:36 PM (10 years, 14 days ago) |
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guess it depends on your relativity. i'm just grateful, regardless. If i'm turned off there is something to be revered and protected and a place for adjustment, because simply, why should I sustain hindrances to the motion and why should I not help my self by taking steps out of a burning building.. my oily presence is only going to extend the duration of the flames. if I had a flame retardant suit and a place to avoid uncompromising blunt force trauma, then maybe id just watch. If my conditioning and situation is consistently unskillful and continuation of these seeds; responses of memory, are triggered to the point of it being unhealthy/unskillful/unwholesome for me and surrounding company, then I feel in this scenario, it would be beneficial to all if I were not here to be a conditioned beacon of diseased responsiveness.
if I were hog tied in the basement then I guess id just have to adjust in a different manner, or flail around as my tears turn to steam.
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"Springs of water welling from the fire"
"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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Sse
Saṃsāra
Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
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Re: slaves [Re: Sse]
#19795463 - 04/04/14 04:43 PM (10 years, 14 days ago) |
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in the mean time I'm loving every minute of it, regardless
no solidity here, slow and steady comes out on top.
easing into the waves while i'm here and had been anyhow, but my decision to leave has stilled the ocean miraculously. 
going with theeee flow
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"Springs of water welling from the fire"
"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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Libertin
Absurdist
Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 959
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Re: slaves [Re: Sse]
#19795621 - 04/04/14 05:28 PM (10 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
...The idea of overcoming death is IMO full on fantasy.
What qualifies as overcoming death? Let's try to define it.
For all death to cease entirely, that's not the point and I agree it's improbable. For any one individual to overcome death entirely, that is impossible, I expect no-one to outlive the universe. But to artificially extend human "life" to an extraordinary duration - I really don't think that's unrealistic - if by "life" we mean consciousness. For example let's imagine the goal is to give your individual mind some kind of continuous existence for an arbitrarily long duration such as 5000 years. Is that example a case of "overcoming death"? I hope you agree that it is, as it's effectively overcoming [biological] death.
I anticipate this could be achieved through the separation of body and mind. The interfacing of technology with the brain, and thereby the mind looks like a real possibility to me. Consider what is possible now, and how relatively recently it has been made so. Language, printing, [control of] electricity, radio, antibiotics, internet, MRI. These are not playthings or the result of tinkering, but magnificent leaps forward in our development as a species that were all once thought impossible or were simply unimaginable.
I think it would be unwise to bet against humanity's ability to solve any problem that stands between our current mode of existence and the kind of disembodied transcendence, "overcoming of death", I have described.
What then, specifically, do you perceive are the obstacles to humanity achieving this?
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Tropism
ChasingTail
Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
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Re: slaves [Re: Kickle]
#19795709 - 04/04/14 05:45 PM (10 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
lol
i guess this is the question that emerges for me: if we're so turned off by our lives that we want something else, does that mean that life is actually something to be revered and protected as is oft preached? or rather that life is terrifying and something we're continually trying to escape. And it is the fantasy life that we revere and protect.
One thing that I feel is lacking in our modern society is ways to fight fear of living more than anything.
It seems so much easier to let something else define us, it is difficult imo to fight our anxieties of living and create our own stories.
Those who do often seem to live the largest.
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 22 hours
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If you think living 5000 years is overcoming death then you may be right, we will overcome death... until we die 
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 22 hours
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Quote:
Tropism said:
Quote:
Kickle said:
lol
i guess this is the question that emerges for me: if we're so turned off by our lives that we want something else, does that mean that life is actually something to be revered and protected as is oft preached? or rather that life is terrifying and something we're continually trying to escape. And it is the fantasy life that we revere and protect.
One thing that I feel is lacking in our modern society is ways to fight fear of living more than anything.
It seems so much easier to let something else define us, it is difficult imo to fight our anxieties of living and create our own stories.
Those who do often seem to live the largest.
--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Sse
Saṃsāra
Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
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Re: slaves [Re: Kickle]
#19798677 - 04/05/14 10:10 AM (10 years, 14 days ago) |
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Surf's up!
the world of no-birth and no-death is right here in the world of birth and death
touch the historical dimension deeply to touch the ultimate dimension
ideas can be overcome and seen in suchness
or temporary current thusness
Edited by Sse (04/05/14 11:04 AM)
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IDKMAN
Stranger
Registered: 04/05/14
Posts: 2
Last seen: 10 years, 11 days
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Re: slaves [Re: Kickle]
#19799363 - 04/05/14 01:41 PM (10 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
I wondered if we ever grow out of that. That infatuation with a reality more stimulating, more fulfilling, more in control than our present reality. Or whether we remain slaves to that infatuation, creating systems for ourselves which allow us to remain immersed in the fantasy.
..
...
Why grow out of that ? Could it even be done ?
WE find more stimulating realities in many other aspects of life besides video games.
Music can take you somewhere, athletes are known to enter a zone and ALL MEN strive to live a life where they are more fulfilled and more in control.
No matter how hard you try , there is no possible way to leave the fantasy that is your life, your experience.
To see that as slavery is like praying for something you don't want.
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 22 hours
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Re: slaves [Re: IDKMAN]
#19799449 - 04/05/14 02:11 PM (10 years, 13 days ago) |
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Well I'd think one would want to grow out of it and be able to face reality as it is, not as one imagines it to be. I want that anyways. Of course this might be the great mistake and it might be that we are dependent on fantasy because without it life would be unbearable. But I have to wonder why that would be. What is lurking in life that we would be trying to avoid?
And of course it could go the other way as well. It might not be a mistake and it may lead to some freedom.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Sse
Saṃsāra
Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
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Re: slaves [Re: Kickle]
#19803149 - 04/06/14 11:06 AM (10 years, 13 days ago) |
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or a deeply invested fantasy can be what's making life unbearable. fueling very real health destruction. or perhaps the fantasy ceases to be fantasy once deeply analyzed and seen for what it is, seen for what can be done, but the scenario still triggers deep conditioned roots... maybe no longer a process of knowing, but a process of unknowingly knowing and adjusting, doing what to do out of a natural progression towards betterment and understanding(overstanding).
fine lines in there I think that may be invisible to outside conception; intervals, changes.
maybe then an outside perceiver/solidifier steps into fantasy when opened ended becomes ended.
where there is perception(a sign), there is often deception.
--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"
"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"
Edited by Sse (04/06/14 11:14 AM)
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IDKMAN
Stranger
Registered: 04/05/14
Posts: 2
Last seen: 10 years, 11 days
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Re: slaves [Re: Kickle]
#19810383 - 04/07/14 09:45 PM (10 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
Well I'd think one would want to grow out of it and be able to face reality as it is
I don't understand what you mean by this.
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Withinity
Untitled
Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 1,357
Loc: Côte d’Ivoire
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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Re: slaves [Re: Kickle]
#19810932 - 04/07/14 11:56 PM (10 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
I was watching a young kid, maybe 6 years old wandering behind his mother with a game system in his hands. He would sometimes run into his mother when she would stop. His technique seemed to be to stay inches away from her. Where she moved, he moved. He didn't seem to care where they were or where they were headed. And with this technique he remained out of others' way without even knowing anyone but mom was nearby. He also trailed close enough that the odds of hitting something that wasn't mom were slim to none.
But it reminded me of a sort of slavery. And it made me wonder about humanity. About the fact that at 6 years old this chap had become so infatuated with virtual reality that he created a system in physical reality to support more immersion in the fantasy. I wondered if we ever grow out of that. That infatuation with a reality more stimulating, more fulfilling, more in control than our present reality. Or whether we remain slaves to that infatuation, creating systems for ourselves which allow us to remain immersed in the fantasy.
..
...
That's a good post with the utmost relevance. I see it on a daily basis in the children predominantly whether it be them out on the street with there bikes on the floor whilst they sit their on the nature strip with a laptop looking at Facebook or when i walk past a restaurant and i see every single kid at the table is zoned out to an iPhone, or teens going out with each other just to completely ignore each other whilst communicating with others on the Facebook phone.
I probably did not need to list all those examples but this has been irking me for a while.
The sad thing is if we are able to become so infatuated by the current level of virtual reality , i cant see the younger generations rejecting anything in the years to come i.e even more hardcore virtual slavery and think about how realistic it could become the possibilities! to embed such a system into an individual so it would always be turned on? you know something like Google glasses wherein when you see another person it pulls up all their profiles on the net etc through facial recognition but having something like that ingrained as a chip or whatnot.
You think that's crazy and conspiracy like maybe, but take a look around you sure i wouldn't go for that neither would alot of you but your children , most of us here except maybe the 18 year olds have seen a different world without all this techno babble but looking at my 5-8 year old cousins , and the amount of technology they are already immersed in and comparing it to that of when i was their age , it looks like they would be much more open to more 'intrusive' as it were forms of technology and virtual reality.
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Withinity
Untitled
Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 1,357
Loc: Côte d’Ivoire
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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Connected connected everything has to be connected these days and if your not because you value your privacy , fuck your must be either a terrorist , rapist or a pedophile.
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 22 hours
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Re: slaves [Re: IDKMAN]
#19812234 - 04/08/14 09:24 AM (10 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
IDKMAN said:
Quote:
Well I'd think one would want to grow out of it and be able to face reality as it is
I don't understand what you mean by this.
Well I don't really either. Not what I imagine it to be is as close as I get.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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