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InvisibleMr. Alien
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MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly?
    #19769318 - 03/30/14 03:47 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Please im a little confuse.. i know is the worst way.. but why? If the MS syringe is clean and you sterilized the needle each time you inject MS.. why is going to get contam?

Edited by Mr. Alien (03/30/14 03:48 PM)

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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: Mr. Alien]
    #19769339 - 03/30/14 03:52 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

because prints are almost never truly clean, we fruit in non sterile conditions


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InvisibleMr. Alien
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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: cronicr]
    #19769354 - 03/30/14 03:54 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Ok...And why MS syringe work on grains and pf tek? if they are dirty...

Edited by Mr. Alien (03/30/14 04:00 PM)

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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: Mr. Alien]
    #19769412 - 03/30/14 04:03 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

thats simple with spore syringes you just knock up jars and wait, with a lc you wait a week or two for it to colonize another few days to show growth on grains, if its not clean you just waisted almost a month, with agar what ya see is wut ya get


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InvisibleMr. Alien
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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: cronicr]
    #19769452 - 03/30/14 04:11 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Noo i mean.. If Spore syringes are almost contam every time, why we have a better success rate with grains than with LC?

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Offlinesolomilitia
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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: Mr. Alien]
    #19769478 - 03/30/14 04:17 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

I am just a noob to this how ever I am having some great results with MS and LC I am working with GT and B+ out of 4 LC jars only one contamed ! using water from the tap I found unreliable results so I started using water from my fish tank ( boiled then pressure cooked) using home make self healing injection ports I just nocked up 12 half pint jars and had full colonization with no contams its possible I just hit the MS jack pot but im getting some really nice fruits on pf cakes all knocked with MS LC


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InvisibleMr. Alien
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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: solomilitia]
    #19769511 - 03/30/14 04:22 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Hmmm no for me.. im not going to inoculate MS with LC if i have AGAR. i was just wondering that...

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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: Mr. Alien]
    #19769519 - 03/30/14 04:24 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

it's just a pain in the ass because you can't spot contams in lc's for the most part so agar to lc is your most reliable bet


--------------------
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InvisibleMr. Alien
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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: cronicr]
    #19769625 - 03/30/14 04:50 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

cronicr said:
it's just a pain in the ass because you can't spot contams in lc's for the most part so agar to lc is your most reliable bet




:whathesaid:

Damn right you are  :yesnod:

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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: Mr. Alien]
    #19769815 - 03/30/14 05:28 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

An LC is more habitable to bacteria as well as mold. So instead of one spore germinating in a grain jar you have thousands in an LC.

You provide an ideal environment for everything to grow.

This is why bucket tek fails from time to time, from spawn that was not truly clean but looks otherwise so.


--------------------
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

All mushrooms are edible, but some only once.....                     

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InvisibleMr. Alien
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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: maddchef]
    #19769906 - 03/30/14 05:53 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Hmm no I'm sorry, i don't get it.. i though a single grain is also an ideal home for everything.

And you said "one spore is germinating in a grain jar" i though it was  millions of spores germinating in a grain jar in both MS syringe and MS-LC?

Edited by Mr. Alien (03/30/14 05:59 PM)

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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: cronicr]
    #19770884 - 03/30/14 09:47 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Yep if your doing spore you want to do agar  first so you can see what you have. I wasted  4 months so far, trying to do LC from a  MS  and a few pounds of grain's just to find this out. And even doing agar is a pain in my ass. IF YOU HAVE SPORE SAVE some time and find out what you have with agar first. There is only a few ways to make sure spores is with out a contam. I am get tired of using bleach to clean every time I try spores.

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InvisibleMr. Alien
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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: Saint]
    #19771026 - 03/30/14 10:13 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

The only use i can find for LC is for inoculate myco bags without having
the problem of open air exposure, like we do with grains.

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Invisibleblindingleaf
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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: Mr. Alien]
    #19771154 - 03/30/14 10:38 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

yup u nailed it!!  i only use LC for grain bags b/c i only have an SAB that is small so grain to bag is hard.  i have done it with success but its too iffy for me.  I'm only using a 66qt tote for my SAB.  i always test my LC tho, ALWAYS.  and i ONLY start them with agar wedge, not spores



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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: cronicr] * 2
    #19771256 - 03/30/14 11:01 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

cronicr said:
thats simple with spore syringes you just knock up jars and wait, with a lc you wait a week or two...





Just to expand on this.

When you knock up a jar with spores.  Everything starts from 'zero'.  There might be bacterial contamination in the syringe. But there is a good chance that spores will germinate before the bacteria can ever take a foothold.

If you inject a spore solution into a highly aqueous/nutritious environment just for the purpose of germination and colonization, you're almost GUARANTEED to germinate/multiply any contamination that may have been in the water of the spore solution.

Let's not forget also that LC is dynamic. It is not 'clean or not clean' in the general sense.  Perhaps one week after MS LC inoculation and colonization of myc in the LC, you use this inoculate to inject five jars. They all turn out good. No problem.  You leave the LC on the shelf for two weeks before you do your next round of jars.

In those two weeks, contaminating bacteria that may have only been starting to divide when you did your first inoculation, will now overrun the entire LC.

The dynamic of LC makes it unreliable. The older the LC the more likely you're going to get contaminated results.

I've inoculated with LC and had success.  But I probably won't do it again.

When I work with agar I can visually see what I'm growing. I can cut away from contamination. I can do this as many times as it takes.

With LC it's going to be a crapshoot.

Why work with MS inoculation of LC when you can just inoculate your jars, then for a small investment, culture and clone from the results you've produced which almost guarantees you success (with a little patience)

That being said. If you're trying to inoculate 100 jars and you only have money for 1 ms syringe then maybe LC is a quick and easy way to quickly expand your inoculate.

But most people don't have a gun to their head to inoculate a hundred jars in one week. :shrug:


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

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InvisibleMr. Alien
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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19771501 - 03/31/14 12:52 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Well.. that was the kind of answer that i was looking for..

Exactly how an aqueous medium  multiply contamination's?

How good will be if we could suck an agar wedge with a syringe, lol.

Edited by Mr. Alien (03/31/14 12:55 AM)

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Invisibleelasticaltiger
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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: Mr. Alien] * 1
    #19771518 - 03/31/14 01:03 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Alien said:
Well.. that was the kind of answer that i was looking for..

Exactly how an aqueous medium  multiply contamination's?




A spore syringe is made from sterile water.

An LC is made from a nutrient rich aqueous mixture.

In the spore syringe, any contamination will be struggling to find nutrients to divide and expand. Just as spores probably won't be germinating for a long long time in there (though it does happen from time to time)

In sterile water growth is slow.

Once you inject this mixture into a nutrient rich environment, both the spores AND the bacteria have ideal conditions to grow.

In the water of a spore syringe, neither the contamination or the spores had an ideal environment to propagate.

Once they have sugars to feed off then it's a giant free for all.  The spores may win in the first week simply by the sheer number of inoculation points.  This is why some jars made in the first week of an LC's life may be fine.

Over time though any contamination that was in the syringe will slowly begin to colonize every place in the medium that the mycelium HASN'T colonized.

At this point, when you you suck up your LC into a syringe, you're getting (roughly, this is just for perspective) equal parts mycelium culture and bacteria / mold.

When you inject spore solution into a grain jar where you have 100 spores to every bacterial cell (again I'm just throwing numbers into the wind for perspective) then the spores are going to have a higher chance of colonizing before the contamination.

If you inject a solution where there is basically 50/50 mycelium / bacteria / mold, the contamination will almost always outrun your culture.


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20

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InvisibleMr. Alien
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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19771555 - 03/31/14 01:35 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

:goodburger: now i understand.

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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: Mr. Alien]
    #19771559 - 03/31/14 01:39 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

:ohokayigetit:


--------------------
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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: cronicr]
    #19771585 - 03/31/14 01:59 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Right thats is my point too. IF you have more contam's then real spore your going to lose. and remember the higher the temp the faster cottam's grow. best to transfer your dish to a new dish as soon as you see growth and keep going till you have the best dish posable. maybe a month or 2 but then make a LC from a clean agar dish and your going to be over run with a clean  grow.. Spore's are very ruff to do  if you unsure about where they came from...Never heat your dish's

Was going to say I use potato starch and agar to make my dishes.  at times i use the starch to make my LC too you can do many things with just starch.

Edited by Saint (03/31/14 02:10 AM)

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Invisibleelasticaltiger
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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: Saint]
    #19771616 - 03/31/14 02:24 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Alien said:
:goodburger: now i understand.



Quote:

cronicr said:
:ohokayigetit:



Quote:

Saint said:
Right thats is my point too. IF you have more contam's then real spore your going to lose. and remember the higher the temp the faster cottam's grow. best to transfer your dish to a new dish as soon as you see growth and keep going till you have the best dish posable. maybe a month or 2 but then make a LC from a clean agar dish and your going to be over run with a clean  grow.. Spore's are very ruff to do  if you unsure about where they came from...Never heat your dish's

Was going to say I use potato starch and agar to make my dishes.  at times i use the starch to make my LC too you can do many things with just starch.




I'm so drunk you don't even know... are you guys being sarcastic or did I really make sense?


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20

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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19771651 - 03/31/14 02:47 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


I'm so drunk you don't even know... are you guys being sarcastic or did I really make sense?




No worries your great  you hit it on the nail. i  was just adding my 2 cents to what you had said.
If you like to gamble then dont worry what in your MS and just waist 100 jars and hope you get 50 of them to work. but If you know every MS  has a 50/50 rate then you do agar.

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Invisibleelasticaltiger
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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: Saint]
    #19771664 - 03/31/14 02:55 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Saint said:
Quote:


I'm so drunk you don't even know... are you guys being sarcastic or did I really make sense?




No worries your great  you hit it on the nail. i  was just adding my 2 cents to what you had said.
If you like to gamble then dont worry what in your MS and just waist 100 jars and hope you get 50 of them to work. but If you know every MS  has a 50/50 rate then you do agar.




oh kay

:drunkdriver:


--------------------
First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber

The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it :shrug:

Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger!
No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.

"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT

Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)

Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen

Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson

EZEKIEL 23:20

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InvisibleMr. Alien
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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19772301 - 03/31/14 09:08 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

elasticaltiger said:
Quote:

Mr. Alien said:
:goodburger: now i understand.



Quote:

cronicr said:
:ohokayigetit:



Quote:

Saint said:
Right thats is my point too. IF you have more contam's then real spore your going to lose. and remember the higher the temp the faster cottam's grow. best to transfer your dish to a new dish as soon as you see growth and keep going till you have the best dish posable. maybe a month or 2 but then make a LC from a clean agar dish and your going to be over run with a clean  grow.. Spore's are very ruff to do  if you unsure about where they came from...Never heat your dish's

Was going to say I use potato starch and agar to make my dishes.  at times i use the starch to make my LC too you can do many things with just starch.




I'm so drunk you don't even know... are you guys being sarcastic or did I really make sense?




I'm serious! i mean, you are the only one that made an explanation.. and i believe you.

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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: Mr. Alien]
    #19772324 - 03/31/14 09:15 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

I've gone ms to lc many times. If you know what healthy mycelium looks like in lc, you CAN spot a bad one. And I'd say you've got a 75 percent chance of it working out.


--------------------


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InvisibleMr. Alien
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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: azur]
    #19772442 - 03/31/14 09:56 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

you should post pics, of healthy MYC of a MSLC, and not healthy MYC of a MSLC.

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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: Mr. Alien]
    #19772521 - 03/31/14 10:17 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Will do


--------------------


A cube is NOT a cube.

FALL IN LOVE WITH LC
FOTTSE!!!
ALL NOOBS READ THIS!!!


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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: Mr. Alien]
    #19772529 - 03/31/14 10:21 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

azur said:
I've gone ms to lc many times. If you know what healthy mycelium looks like in lc, you CAN spot a bad one. And I'd say you've got a 75 percent chance of it working out.



:facepalm3: you cant always spot a bad one
Quote:

Mr. Alien said:
you should post pics, of healthy MYC of a MSLC, and not healthy MYC of a MSLC.



that wont do you any good, the only way to know is a test jar not a pic


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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: azur]
    #19772537 - 03/31/14 10:23 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly?




Two main reasons;

It's slower than growing directly from spores.

It's an unnecessary additional vector of contamination.
RR


--------------------
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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: cronicr]
    #19772575 - 03/31/14 10:33 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

cronicr said:
Quote:

azur said:
I've gone ms to lc many times. If you know what healthy mycelium looks like in lc, you CAN spot a bad one. And I'd say you've got a 75 percent chance of it working out.



:facepalm3: you cant always spot a bad one
Quote:

Mr. Alien said:
you should post pics, of healthy MYC of a MSLC, and not healthy MYC of a MSLC.



that wont do you any good, the only way to know is a test jar not a pic




i know... that's why i said that.. is impossible to know by naked eye.

:guiltyascharged:

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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: Mr. Alien]
    #19772584 - 03/31/14 10:35 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

:lol:


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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #19772619 - 03/31/14 10:43 AM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Indeed RR.. :bow2:

Somebody confirms if what tiger deduced is correct?

Who cares...MSLC is a crap.. lol

Edited by Mr. Alien (03/31/14 10:54 AM)

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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: Mr. Alien]
    #19773382 - 03/31/14 02:16 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

yes what tiger said is correct.


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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: blindingleaf]
    #19773618 - 03/31/14 03:23 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

:bow2: Tiger :bow2:

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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: Mr. Alien]
    #19775135 - 03/31/14 09:40 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

I have to ask  just for the  hell of it. all the venders sell these MS to people with contams in them and  i know a spore print would be a lot better to  use. Just all someone has is a MS  to use. Now we know its a crap shot in most cases. What is the best way to go about using these syringes.  Do we still want  to do a drop into agar? wait till there is  some white myclem  growth and transfer it  to a new dish? Or shot up some grain and take  a spot  to a agar dish and  try to transfer to a clean  growth get rid of the water is  the  hard part I wish I was  smart  and just found a vender  with prints in the first place.  But can some one say  the best procedure to make a syringe work out.  With out just a roll of them dice.

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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: Saint]
    #19775363 - 03/31/14 10:26 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Saint said:
I have to ask  just for the  hell of it. all the venders sell these MS to people with contams in them and  i know a spore print would be a lot better to  use. Just all someone has is a MS  to use. Now we know its a crap shot in most cases. What is the best way to go about using these syringes.  Do we still want  to do a drop into agar? wait till there is  some white myclem  growth and transfer it  to a new dish? Or shot up some grain and take  a spot  to a agar dish and  try to transfer to a clean  growth get rid of the water is  the  hard part I wish I was  smart  and just found a vender  with prints in the first place.  But can some one say  the best procedure to make a syringe work out.  With out just a roll of them dice.




You'll probably get a lot of different answers to this.  Some people may tell you to squirt it on to agar.

Personally, I say just do PF Tek to get yourself some fast fruits. Then clone a healthy looking fruit or make your own prints and run agar from that.

A spore syringe from a reputable vendor is probably safe to use for brown rice jars and I've used them for bulk as well. If vendor made spore syringes weren't at least SOMEWHAT reliable no one would ever use them.


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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19775392 - 03/31/14 10:34 PM (10 years, 9 months ago)

:whathesaid:they replace them when there not so knock shit up and hope for the best


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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: cronicr]
    #19886507 - 04/23/14 05:16 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Ok sorry was  haveing issues  with upload of photos  but  got some good ones  now



ok  this took for ever to get going took one drop of spore's in Syringe. took like 2 weeks to make a pin size and then it exploded Agave  is what i used  when it get done i will agar to make sure but it looks so good for a cube spore

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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: Saint]
    #19886524 - 04/23/14 05:28 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

and  now for a wird looking one  made from agar

the size of little pins

as you can see  just nothing to them not fluffy like i thought i should be




Anyone know about why a classic cube  would look this way ?its in 4 different jars used  raw sugar, Agave, corn syrup  lite.  even the chuck  of agar one  looks different. andy ideas would be a help on these cubes .and its not con tam  i know that much

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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: Saint]
    #19886562 - 04/23/14 06:01 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

even with agar, u won't know its a contam till u try it man, sorry to say.  i only make LC with agar, and it still gets fucked up occasionally.  u really really can't tell if its con tamed if its LC, i promise.  certain things u will know for sure (prolonged bubbles after shaking is bad, black, green, etc is bad), but overall its very difficult to tell if the LC is clean.
those aren't pins either, its just mycelium suspended in water.  ur pics are blurry, not that it matter b.c its LC, but with an agar drop into LC, the wedge will start to look fluffy as it grows out (kinda like when u drop in grain, and it gets fluffy around the agar before it spreads to the grain if u left the wedge on top) at which point, swirl it up, and those marbles will help get the myc off the wedge and starting their own growth.  DEFINITELY test it on a another plate before using.


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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: blindingleaf]
    #19887990 - 04/23/14 01:59 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks for the reply  just these cubes are  hard to  get  a good start. and with the Synge. i am trying everything i can. Just to get one good lc master or even  just a grain master. but when i do get a good master i will never let it get commentated. one drop  at a time till i get it right. sorry about the photos best i could do  thanks again

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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: Saint]
    #19888235 - 04/23/14 03:03 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

if u only have spores, don't waste those on LC, just use those for grain or agar.


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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: blindingleaf]
    #19889198 - 04/23/14 06:15 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

:whathesaid:

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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: blindingleaf]
    #20278140 - 07/15/14 06:44 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I finally got a  good dish and now have tons of myclem  to  make a  first ever cube. Made my own agar. Did 20 full size dishes and 50 mini rounds. and  10 no pour dishes. My mini's keep drying out to  fast. I am having to full to the rim. going to take and make some GLC as this is what i use  for my shiitakes. Working on a  deal with  a farm that's been  supplying  the whole state here the last 30 years. Wholesaling to grocery stores. As I  build up my warehouse. Over the next 2 years. I am learning  all I can. I have over 200 blocks now growing  and plan on  way more. For farmers market. As a bulk seller for this wholesaler. They have worked out a great capital investment with me.

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Re: MS to LC, the worst way i know.. but why exactly? [Re: Saint]
    #20279199 - 07/15/14 10:56 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

:fuckinawesome:

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