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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1982817 - 10/06/03 12:45 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

these are all very powerful offensive weapons with very little, if any, defensive value.

So what happened to the argument you've been pushing about "if we have weapons we'll fight off a tyrants army,navy and airforce"? Don't you think a grenade launcher each would give people a better chance of fighting off the marine corps than a .38? Is a .38 apeice is really going to stop a division of tanks and F-16's?

it may surprise you that you are far less likely to be hurt in a violent crime if you have a gun to defend yourself than if you don't. yet another false assumption on the part of a gun-banner. this is exactly the sort of thing i'm taking about when i say gun-ban-ers are ill-informed and full of false notions.

Evidence?

Bill Hicks once quoted the gun deaths in america and the UK as being something like 14,000 in america "where everyone has guns" to 14 in the UK "where no-one has guns". He said "But there's no connection between having a gun and shooting someone with it and NOT having a gun and NOT shooting someone with it..and you'd be a communist to make one"


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Offlinemonoamine
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Registered: 09/07/02
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Re: gun control [Re: Phred]
    #1982824 - 10/06/03 12:47 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

If you are an average Joe that just minds his own business...

Like driving along not expecting to have your car jacked, for example.

...it's extremely unlickly that you will be violently attacked by a stranger.

And more unlikely still if you show him you are armed.





Uh..last time I checked car jackings happen rather quickly. What do you do? Have a loaded gun sitting on your lap at all times? Almost any crimonologist will tell you the best thing to do when getting robbed,car jacked,etc. is to comply.

And how do you show these strangers you are armed? Do you go waving a gun around?




--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: gun control [Re: monoamine]
    #1982829 - 10/06/03 12:51 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Horror stories like that are statistically insignificant anyway mono. You could quote just as many stories where someone started shooting and killed innocent people or shot themselves in the foot or had the gun taken away from them by a burglar and got shot with it.


--------------------
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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: gun control [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1982837 - 10/06/03 12:53 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OK, as long as you don't give me any of that "guns are dangerous" bullshit.




Guns are a lot more dangerous than drugs.All drugs do is cause a chemical reaction in the brain they may or may not be dangerous.Even though I'm aware that people use them for other things,guns are pretty much solely designed to kill and maim. Drugs are just chemicals.

Quote:

So if someone can make their own guns and bombs they should be allowed to have as many as they want? `Cause I'm an engineering major, and I could so fucking make my own assault rifles and those bigass mounted guns that can take out a house and shit with the shit I be learning .




Where did you get this? I never said nor implied nor said anything that would warrant what you said. I don't care where they come from,they should be equally illegal. Good luck making an M-16.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: gun control [Re: monoamine]
    #1982850 - 10/06/03 12:57 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Guns are a lot more dangerous than drugs

Amen. I've never heard of anyone being attacked with a mushroom. They're simply too soft to hurt anyone with.


--------------------
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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: gun control [Re: monoamine]
    #1982852 - 10/06/03 12:59 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

monoamine said:Drugs can easily be manufactured or grown.




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Offlinemonoamine
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Registered: 09/07/02
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Re: gun control [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1982862 - 10/06/03 01:03 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Yes,I did say that.That's why drug laws are unenforcable.

It's a little bit harder to make firearms.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: gun control [Re: Xlea321]
    #1982865 - 10/06/03 01:06 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Funny. I've never heard of someone getting hopped up on assault rifles and driving their van into a car full of small children.

Some drugs are more dangerous than others, just as some guns are.

Even though most drugs are illegal and most guns are not, There are still more drug related deaths each year than gun related deaths.

Drugs are every bit as dangerous as guns. How can you even deny that?


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: gun control [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1982893 - 10/06/03 01:27 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Funny. I've never heard of someone getting hopped up on assault rifles and driving their van into a car full of small children.




Neither have I. But I do know that illegal drugs rarely cause things like this on a large scale.

Quote:

Some drugs are more dangerous than others, just as some guns are




True,but you can directly be killed by any kind of gun.It doesn't work that way for some drugs.

Quote:

Even though most drugs are illegal and most guns are not, There are still more drug related deaths each year than gun related deaths.



Yeah relating to legal drugs. Take out alcohol and tabacco and you're wrong. This is a prime example why I don't use many stats.


Quote:

Drugs are every bit as dangerous as guns. How can you even deny that?




Well,I've experimented with enough drugs and I'm still here,alive and well. If I experimented with weapons,the outcome would have likely been different.

If drugs are so dangerous,how come they aren't used in warfare very much? Oh...that's right,the CIA tried that and it failed miserably.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: gun control [Re: monoamine]
    #1982930 - 10/06/03 01:54 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Let's make some guns illegal!








...and lets make some drugs legal!








Any questions?


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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OfflineRoseM
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Re: gun control [Re: Rose]
    #1982933 - 10/06/03 01:57 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I can shoot myself up with HEROIN more times than I can shoot myself with a gun.

And... I guarantee I'd like heroine better than being shot!


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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Offlinemonoamine
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Registered: 09/07/02
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Re: gun control [Re: Rose]
    #1982948 - 10/06/03 02:05 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I'll extend an olive branch Hitler,I'll join the Guns and Dope party if you do too.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: gun control [Re: monoamine]
    #1983028 - 10/06/03 03:17 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I'd join the guns and dope party if there were one.

I'm not counting people who die from their own drug use by the way, I'm only counting innocent people that die from other people's drug use.

I think we can both agree that alcohol is more of a threat to public saftey than Cannabis, LSD, shrooms, mescaline, DMT, and all other psychedelics combined, and would remain so even if they were legal and as available as alcohol is today.


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Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: monoamine]
    #1983267 - 10/06/03 07:35 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Using logic,most criminals aren't interested in hurting you,they just want your personal property or they have a personal grudge.

you have a strange definition of logic. some criminals want to forcefully hurt you. some may only want to forcefully take your possessions. you have a right to defend against either of them.

whether or not you think it's wiser to comply or wiser to resist is a great way to decide what your own personal conduct will be should you be violently attacked. even if you think it's dangerous to resist- hell, even if it actually is dangerous, it isn't a decision you've got any place making for other people. people have a right to resist and defend against violent attack.

Random acts of violence are actually quite rare. If you are an average Joe that just minds his own business,it's extremely unlickly that you will be violently attacked by a stranger.

do i need to remind you that studies have shown between 800,000 and 2.5 million defensive uses of guns by civilians per year?

if you are an average joe that minds his own business, why shouldn't you be allowed to keep a gun?


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Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: Xlea321]
    #1983344 - 10/06/03 09:11 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

So what happened to the argument you've been pushing about "if we have weapons we'll fight off a tyrants army,navy and airforce"? Don't you think a grenade launcher each would give people a better chance of fighting off the marine corps than a .38? Is a .38 apeice is really going to stop a division of tanks and F-16's?

right off the bat, this is a red herring. the bulk of my argumentation has been in support of civilian use of weapons, not insurgent use, and your statement, even if based on valid assumptions, would have little bearing on the argument at hand. i'll address it anyway. a .38 might not be very useful for military engagements but a rifle sure would be. this is why virtually every soldier in the entire world is equipped with a rifle. if grenade launchers are so militarily valuable, and regular small arms so useless, it is most curious that almost every soldier in the world carries a rifle, while few carry both a rifle and a grenade launcher, and virtually none carry a grenade launcher exclusively.

rifles are very useful both in military and civilian applications. grenade launchers have very specific, limited military use, and essentially no civilian usefullness.

attacking my premise that civilians should be allowed to own small arms as a last line of defense from tyranny because i do not favor allowing civilians to own grenade launchers, chemical warheads, and armed jet fighters isn't logically sound at all.

Evidence?

i base that statement on the information found here: Is a Gun an Effective Means of Self-Defense?

Bill Hicks once quoted the gun deaths in america and the UK as being something like 14,000 in america "where everyone has guns" to 14 in the UK "where no-one has guns". He said "But there's no connection between having a gun and shooting someone with it and NOT having a gun and NOT shooting someone with it..and you'd be a communist to make one"

it's interesting that bill hicks did not note that in coutries like israel and switzerland, where the people are armed to the teeth, the homocide rate is very low. in switzerland, the rate is even lower than britain. perhaps bill hicks is also unaware that homocide rates amongst japanese-americans are lower than that of japanese nationals themselves (who have much less access to firearms than their american relatives).


maybe he ignores the fact that homocide rates in europe were already low before gun restrictions went widely into effect.

http://www.guncite.com/journals/gun_control_katesreal.html#h7.2


or that statistical analysis of international homocide rates will establish no significant correlation between gun ownership and homocide rates.

"In 1993 a Swiss professor, Martin Killias, published a study of 18 countries concerning gun ownership, homicide and suicide. He in part concluded there was a weak correlation between total homicide and gun ownership. For a partial criticism of his study see Dunblane Misled where using the countries studied by Killias, these researchers found a much stronger correlation between firearm homicides and car ownership. More seriously, when the United States was included in the Killias study, a stronger correlation between total homicide and gun ownership was found. When two countries were excluded, the U.S. (high gun ownership, high murder rate) and Northern Ireland (low gun ownership, high murder rate) the correlation was marginally significant. Gary Kleck writes, "Contrary to his claim that 'the overall correlation is not contingent upon a few countries with extreme scores on the dependent and independent variable', reanalysis of the data reveals that if one excludes only the United States from the sample there is no significant association between gun ownership and the total homicide rate." (Kleck, Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, p 253. Walter de Gruyter, Inc. New York, 1997.) Kleck concludes that "the homicide-guns study was not international at all, but merely reflected the unique status of the United States as a high-gun ownership/high-violence nation...Since the positive association Killias observed was entirely dependent on the U.S. case, where self-defense is a common reason for gun ownership, this supports the conclusion that the association was attributable to the impact of the homicide rates on gun levels." "

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html


he probably hasn't taken the time to read this rather simple statistical analysis:

"Similarly, there were 662 murders in England and Wales in
1984[4]. This gives 1.35 murders per 100,000 people. The
U.S. murder rate in 1987 was 8.3 per 100,000 people[5]. Even
if we assume that:

1. In the absence of firearms, not a single murderer using a
firearm in the U.S. would have used another weapon to commit
murder (very unlikely);

2. further assuming that not a single privately owned
firearm was used to prevent a murder from happening in the
U.S. (very unlikely);

3. assuming that not a single murder in Britain involved a
firearm (not true);

subtracting out the 59% of murders committed with firearms
in the U.S. in 1987[6] still gives a rate of 3.4 per 100,000 -
- two and a half times higher than Britain. How valid is it
to compare British and U.S. murder rates?"

http://www.rkba.org/research/cramer/murder.txt


homocide rates have more to do with social and cultural conditions than rates of gun ownership. there no consistant statistical data confirming otherwise... bill hicks is only a comedian.


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Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: Xlea321]
    #1983359 - 10/06/03 09:22 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Horror stories like that are statistically insignificant anyway mono. You could quote just as many stories where someone started shooting and killed innocent people or shot themselves in the foot or had the gun taken away from them by a burglar and got shot with it.

correct. if you want to talk about general trends, if you want to talk about truths which can be applied to the general population at large, ditch the hypothetical story-telling and bring some hard statistics to the table.

if you just want to tell stories, i haven't the time. if it's stories that interest you, perhaps you'll enjoy reading through an archive of literally thousands of news reports of americans defending themselves from attack succesfully with firearms: The Armed Citizen: Search Archives


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Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: monoamine]
    #1983386 - 10/06/03 09:42 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

The rights of individuals need to be balanced with the rights of soceity to be protected as a whole.

what rights does society have?

society cannot have rights, i'm sorry.

individuals have rights.

And don't give me bullshit drug analogies because drugs are hardwired with human brains.

unfortunately, so is coercion. so are weapons.

Firearms construction is sophisiticated.

workable AK-47 clones have been made in makeshift foundries in pakistan and southeast asia. small tube-guns have been produced in prison. it's quite possible to make a shotgun out of a peice of pipe- these were once very popular in the phillipenes.

i'm quite certain that the technology, skills, and materials present in the united states greatly exceeds that available to pakistani militants and prisoners.

it is very possible, if not downright easy, to make a do-it-yourself firearm.

I've read info from both sides of the fence and these are the conclusions I haved reached.

keep reading.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: gun control [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1983468 - 10/06/03 10:35 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Funny. I've never heard of someone getting hopped up on assault rifles and driving their van into a car full of small children.

Nah, come off it Baby. You can't blame alcohol for someone drinking and driving. Alcohol doesn't lead you outside, sit you in the car and start the car up.

Drugs are every bit as dangerous as guns. How can you even deny that?

How can you even suggest they are?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Posts: 9,134
Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1983499 - 10/06/03 10:49 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

the bulk of my argumentation has been in support of civilian use of weapons, not insurgent use,

I thought I read you saying something about "name one act of genocide on an armed populace".

a .38 might not be very useful for military engagements but a rifle sure would be.

Didn't do the taliban much good. And they were hardened fighters. How effective would Uncle Earl and his friend Bubba be after a lifetime sat in an office shooting at a tank with a rifle? My guess is the second the tank fired a shell or two they would drop their rifles and run in the opposite direction so hard their knees would hit their chins. If any town attempted to fight back a tyrant would simply drop a daisy cutter on it anyway.

he probably hasn't taken the time to read this rather simple statistical analysis:

Or maybe he read this rather simple statistical analysis:

UK - Gun homicde (per million) - 1.3
US - Gun homicide(per million) - 62.4

The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)

American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)

France's per-capita rate of murders is one-eighth that of the United States. (www.allsafedefense.com)

In 1992, handguns killed 13 people in Australia, 33 people in Great Britain, 36 in Sweden, 60 in Japan, 97 in Switzerland, 128 in Canada, and 13,200 in the United States. (Handgun Control Inc., cited in The Washington Post, 1998)
Among 26 industrialized nations, 86% of gun deaths among children under age 15 occurred in the United States. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
In a study of 15 countries that have stricter licensing and registration laws than the United States, the gun homicide rate of the US was over 3 times that of the countries with the next highest rate. (www.mppgv.org)

http://www.handgunfree.org/HFAMain/research/abroad/


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: Xlea321]
    #1983524 - 10/06/03 10:59 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Nah, come off it Baby. You can't blame alcohol for someone drinking and driving. Alcohol doesn't lead you outside, sit you in the car and start the car up.

just as you cannot blame guns for gun crime. guns do not lead you down to the liquor store to rob the cashier.

How can you even suggest they are?

look at the number of deaths related to alcohol and cigarettes, and compare that to deaths by firearms. you will find that alcohol and tobacco kill 50 or 60 times as many people per year than die from murders by firearm. even if we only count illegal drugs, there are still more killed per year by illegal drugs.



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