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Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: silversoul7]
    #1981281 - 10/05/03 01:45 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

these pages contain some good info on the topic of 'assault' weapons and machine guns.

Full Auto Weapons

"Assault Weapons"

these weapons are rarely used in crimes. the gov't is just afraid to let people have 'military-style' weapons, and laws against these weapons are easy to enact and make politicians look good to a mostly ignorant populace.

also... how do you define "assault rifle"? a full-auto rifle? a semi-auto with a large magazine capacity? one that just looks nasty?... it's a tough line to draw. if you read the text of the assault weapons ban, you'll find that the government has taken to defining assault weapon on such ridiculous characteristics as the shape of the grips on the weapon and whether or not it can be fitted with a bayonet.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1981299 - 10/05/03 01:52 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

You ever think that maybe the reason that machine guns are so rarely used in crimes is because they're illegal? Wasn't it a bit different in the 1920's? Who the hell needs a machine gun to defend themselves anyway? Seems to me they're far more useful for drive-by shootings.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
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Re: gun control [Re: silversoul7]
    #1981322 - 10/05/03 01:59 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Most people can't hit the broad side of a barn with anything full auto. It's really a lot harder than it looks.

I'd still like one :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: silversoul7]
    #1981352 - 10/05/03 02:10 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

i think that whether or not fully automatic weapons should be legal or not is certainly quite debatable. there are very valid arguments against civilian ownership of fully-automatic weapons.

full-auto weapons are pretty rare, and this may account for their extremely small frequency of use in crimes.

i would not be entirely opposed to restrictions against full-auto weapons.

that, in my opinion, would not be entirely unreasonable. the government's definition of 'assault weapon', if restricted only to full-auto weapons, would be a fairly reasonable one in my opinion. as it is now, their definition is too broad.

i must admit that one reason i am not entirely opposed to restrictions against full-auto weapons is because a person with a little technical know-how can without much difficulty convert a semi-auto to a full auto.

full-auto weapons are really only good for military uses and crimes. if the shit ever really hit the fan in this country, i'd like to have a full-auto weapon. until then, it's pretty much useless for civilian defensive purposes. if shit did go down, one could simply convert their semi-auto weapons to full-auto; i don't think such restrictions disempower armed citizens in any unbearable way.


Edited by mushmaster (10/05/03 02:18 PM)


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
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Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1981361 - 10/05/03 02:12 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

The government does not consider my AR-15 to be an assault rifle, but if I put a bayonet lug on it then it would be. How silly is that?

Damn shame, too. I was really hoping to do some drive-by bayonettings.


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Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: silversoul7]
    #1981430 - 10/05/03 02:33 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Rifles? Absolutely... Assault rifles? Only with a special license.

how would you differentiate the two?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1981545 - 10/05/03 03:25 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I suppose you have a point there. I guess when I think of "assault rifle," I think of an automatic or semi-automatic rifle designed for military operations. Anyway, my point is that we have to draw the line somewhere. Do you really want anyone to be allowed to own a bazooka or grenade launcher? How about a nuclear weapon? At a certain point, you'll find weapons that can do WAY more damage than any drug could.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: silversoul7]
    #1981800 - 10/05/03 05:41 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I suppose you have a point there. I guess when I think of "assault rifle," I think of an automatic or semi-automatic rifle designed for military operations.

i would restrict the definition to full-auto weapons. any gun manufacturer could design a rifle specifically for civilian use and chamber it in .223, give it a 30 round detatchable magazine, and a pistol grip. who's to say that it's not entirely designed for and suitable for civilian target shooting and home defense purposes?

i do not think that the government's current scheme of defining 'assault weapon' by what they think it's appropriate for, using characteristics such as caliber, magazine capacity, stock features, presence of flash suppressors, recoil compensators, or bayonet lugs is reasonable at all. it's too arbitrary and it really doesn't add up. does it really matter whether wingnutx's AR-15 has a bayonet lug on it?

how do you know what it's "designed for"? the line becomes impossible to draw.

Do you really want anyone to be allowed to own a bazooka or grenade launcher? How about a nuclear weapon?

these are all very powerful offensive weapons with very little, if any, defensive value.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1981818 - 10/05/03 05:50 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
Do you really want anyone to be allowed to own a bazooka or grenade launcher? How about a nuclear weapon?

these are all very powerful offensive weapons with very little, if any, defensive value.



That's essentially what I'm saying. I think the line should be drawn at the point where a weapon's defensive value is very small compared to its offensive value. Tell me--how much defensive value does a fully automatic assualt rifle have compared to its offensive value?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: gun control [Re: silversoul7]
    #1981929 - 10/05/03 06:49 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

* these are all very powerful offensive weapons with very little, if any, defensive value.

Land mines are the way to go. Very difficult to shoot 'em at folks.

Defense! Defense!

I, also, support moats and hot, burning, oil to be poured over compound walls on unsuspecting invaders.


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Fiddlesticks.



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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: gun control [Re: Rose]
    #1982499 - 10/05/03 10:47 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I think ownership of shotguns and bolt action "hunting rifles" should be legal for any citizen over the age of 18 with a record clear of violent crime. Any other weapons,should be totally illegal.

Concealed weapons permits and handguns should have strict requirements and you should have to reasonably demonstrate that you're life could be in some kind of danger if you were not allowed to own such firearms.

This system could be implimented over a long period to get a large portion of illegal firearms off the street while allowing non violent citizens to protect themselves from illegal firearms.

Firearms manufacturers should be strictly monitored. They would only be able to put out military grade weapons (anything explosive,automatic,non bolt action semi auto,high rate of fire) in limited quantities for strictly military use (meaning army,navy,air force,national guard.If it is shown that very small amounts of illegal weapons are on the streets, police officers would only be allowed to carry pistols,shotguns,and bolt action rifles.)

It's kind ridiculous that ownership of C1 and C2 drugs are more strict than firearms in this country.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: monoamine]
    #1982525 - 10/05/03 10:58 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

if handguns are banned, can i carry a shotgun with me in public instead?


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1982580 - 10/05/03 11:19 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Here's what I think....nevermind. Mushmaster already said it. :tongue: 


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1982617 - 10/05/03 11:30 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Yes,but you can't bring it into any public buldings (by public I mean anything that isn't a private residency).

Local governments can enact laws establishing where you can carry it elsewhere. For example,you can't walk around NY city with one if such laws are enacted. Like if you live in buffuck Egypt,local laws would likely establish that you could carry one around (you know,the forest and stuff).

You can keep it in your car as that is considered private.

I hope people will respond back,but people with concealed weapons are usually overly paranoid. I don't see how anyone could carry around a loaded pistol all day. I also think it's a bad idea because contrary to public hysteria,it is unlikely that you will be violently attacked by a random person.Usually said people just want your car,wallet,etc and have little interest in attacking you,it's best just to comply in these situations.. Brandishing a gun in said situations could be a very bad idea. The attacker could have a weapon himself. And I admit that I live in a very low crime area,but I often visit friends that live in relatively high crime areas (crack apartments basically). If someone pulled a weapon and didn't use it,they would likely be dead within a couple days.

Pepper spray and tazers are pretty effective if someone were to violently attack you (assuming it's not with a gun).


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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Anonymous

Re: gun control [Re: monoamine]
    #1982664 - 10/05/03 11:44 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I hope people will respond back,but people with concealed weapons are usually overly paranoid. I don't see how anyone could carry around a loaded pistol all day. I also think it's a bad idea because contrary to public hysteria,it is unlikely that you will be violently attacked by a random person.Usually said people just want your car,wallet,etc and have little interest in attacking you,it's best just to comply in these situations.. Brandishing a gun in said situations could be a very bad idea. The attacker could have a weapon himself. And I admit that I live in a very low crime area,but I often visit friends that live in relatively high crime areas (crack apartments basically). If someone pulled a weapon and didn't use it,they would likely be dead within a couple days.

a whole slew of baseless assumptions and personal opinions, some inconsistant with statistical data.

it may surprise you that you are far less likely to be hurt in a violent crime if you have a gun to defend yourself than if you don't. yet another false assumption on the part of a gun-banner. this is exactly the sort of thing i'm taking about when i say gun-ban-ers are ill-informed and full of false notions.

statistical analysis will not establish any positive correlation between rates of handgun ownership and crime rates, much less a causal relationship. i'm afraid that while you can presume what you will, the general trends simply do not support the assumption that stricter gun laws result in lower crime rates, nor do they support the notion that carrying a weapon, and using it in self-defense, places you in any greater danger than you would be without it.

if that was a case, you'd have a point to argue behind. as it is, your argument basically consists of enforcing your personal opinions and preferences ("but people with concealed weapons are usually overly paranoid", "I don't see how anyone could carry around a loaded pistol all day.", " it's best just to comply in these situations.. ") on other people.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: gun control [Re: monoamine]
    #1982720 - 10/06/03 12:09 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Way to only care about your own rights.

You make a great Amerikkkan.


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: gun control [Re: ]
    #1982723 - 10/06/03 12:10 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

The statistics you are using to back up your arguement don't differentiate between self defense with weapons used at home and concealed weapons in public places.

You can use all the statistics if you want.Statistics can be interpreted a thousand different ways.

Using logic,most criminals aren't interested in hurting you,they just want your personal property or they have a personal grudge.Random acts of violence are actually quite rare. If you are an average Joe that just minds his own business,it's extremely unlickly that you will be violently attacked by a stranger.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: gun control [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1982750 - 10/06/03 12:22 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Way to only care about your own rights.





Bullshit. I take the rights of people in high regard. I don't have the desire the ever own a gun,yet I recongize that certain people do.That's why I'm very much against any kind of universial gun ban.

The rights of individuals need to be balanced with the rights of soceity to be protected as a whole. People want machine guns,etc,so manufacturers make them. The vast majority of firearms start out legal,but somewhere along the line enter the black market. If we cut off the source,then these weapons won't exist. It's pretty hard to do a drive by with a hunting rifle.

And don't give me bullshit drug analogies because drugs are hardwired with human brains.Drugs can easily be manufactured or grown.Firearms construction is sophisiticated.

I'm not a knee jerk reactionary. I've read info from both sides of the fence and these are the conclusions I haved reached.They are my opinions.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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OfflinePhred
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Re: gun control [Re: monoamine]
    #1982758 - 10/06/03 12:25 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

monoamine writes:

If you are an average Joe that just minds his own business...

Like driving along not expecting to have your car jacked, for example.

...it's extremely unlickly that you will be violently attacked by a stranger.

And more unlikely still if you show him you are armed.

pinky


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: gun control [Re: monoamine]
    #1982805 - 10/06/03 12:39 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

And don't give me bullshit drug analogies because drugs are hardwired with human brains.Drugs can easily be manufactured or grown.

OK, as long as you don't give me any of that "guns are dangerous" bullshit.


So if someone can make their own guns and bombs they should be allowed to have as many as they want? `Cause I'm an engineering major, and I could so fucking make my own assault rifles and those bigass mounted guns that can take out a house and shit with the shit I be learning . :loveeyes:

For that matter, I could make an Oklahoma City style truck bomb right now if I wanted to.  :crazy2:


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