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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Stonehenge]
    #19783791 - 04/02/14 12:20 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

No, I never asked him to prove his statement.  If you're going to participate in a discussion with adults, you should really work on improving your reading comprehension.  It only makes you look more foolish when you can't even interpret and understand posts consisting of only a sentence or two.

I'm not sure why you've developed this irrational, compulsive need to challenge me at every opportunity.  I can only assume that your ego was hurt by something I said at some point.  My advice, which you're free to summarily dismiss, is for you to just let it go.  All you're going to accomplish this way is to have your frail ego damaged even more.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Enlil]
    #19784321 - 04/02/14 02:30 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That's a completely different claim.  Your other claim was that the excess pool of labor is entirely due to illegal immigration.  This is clearly false.



No, it is not.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19784408 - 04/02/14 02:48 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

There are approximately:
http://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal-aliens-taking-u-s-jobs

Quote:

One recent estimate by researchers at the Pew Hispanic Center puts the number of illegal aliens in the workforce at 8 million out of an overall population of 11.2 million illegal aliens,




Add 8 million jobs to Americans.  8 million.  It would probably be more since the 8 million wouldn't be sending a lot of their earnings out of country but spending here.

Kick the fuckers out.  Every one, every time.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: psyconaught]
    #19785252 - 04/02/14 06:00 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Enlil, you asked him to prove his statement and then you think you don't have to prove yours. It shows that once again you are 'talking out of your ass' as you love to say to others. Back it up or shut up.



thats not how the burden of proof works. If you claim that there are flying invisible spaghetti monsters and i say that i dont believe you its up to you to prove they exist. Not up to me to prove that they don't.




That is true so far. But what you and enlil don't seem to understand is there is a difference between doubting something and making a contrary statement that its not true. Both positive and negative statements need to be backed up. For example:

There are flying monsters in the air.
Response: Lets see some proof.

That is all fine and good but what if the second person says:

There are no flying monsters in the air.

That is a statement that needs proof. The fact that someone else said the opposite does not relieve you of the obligation to prove your statement. Enlil said:

"Your other claim was that the excess pool of labor is entirely due to illegal immigration.  This is clearly false."

That is a statement of opinion and whether or not he correctly quoted zap is another question. He claimed that his statement was false. When you make a statement like that you have to be able to back it up. Or anyone can say anything is false without presenting evidence. One could say it is false that there are 10 amendments to the constitution. Or its false that... anything.

I don't expect enlil to understand, he has the tatters left of his pride to defend even when caught talking out of his ass. But most rational people can grasp the fact that when you claim something is true or false, you are expected to back that up. That is different from asking zappa to back up his statement. That is legit. What is not legit is to claim his statement is false without substantiating your claim. Both positive and negative statements require proof.

He will of course refuse to admit anything and will dismiss it all with a sniff.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Stonehenge]
    #19785362 - 04/02/14 06:18 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

That is a statement of opinion and whether or not he correctly quoted zap is another question. He claimed that his statement was false. When you make a statement like that you have to be able to back it up. Or anyone can say anything is false without presenting evidence.




Did you miss this post? Enlil did provide evidence.

The claim that illegal immigrants are the only factor involved is somewhat ridiculous. Enlil listed a few other factors, clearly supporting his claim.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #19786132 - 04/02/14 08:58 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Bold, are you retarded? Nothing in that post was evidence, it was all opinion. Enlil has shut up which means he finally realized he was wrong. If he had any solid comeback he would be here braying it to all and sundry.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Stonehenge]
    #19786945 - 04/02/14 11:50 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Bold, are you retarded? Nothing in that post was evidence, it was all opinion. Enlil has shut up which means he finally realized he was wrong. If he had any solid comeback he would be here braying it to all and sundry.




Calling me retarded is a classy comeback.

How is it not evidence? Later retirement means people stay in the work force longer and the retirement age has increased. Those two things are fact.

The number of two-income families v. "traditional" families has also increased. This means more women in the labor force then there has been historically.

And everyone knows that manufacturing jobs are getting outsourced, leading to more people looking for jobs.

So, tell me, how is this not evidence that illegal immigration isn't the only factor involved?


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Stonehenge]
    #19786967 - 04/02/14 11:56 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Well, when I am in a graduate class in engineering at a US university, and there are 30 people and I am the only american, or i pass a company in san diego like broadcom or Qualcomm and people are leaving and they are all from india, china, the middle east, or russia, then i start to think the reason a lot of americans cant make a living wage is because they refuse to go into the fields and get educated at what pays money.

Liberal arts, Ethnic Studies majors, Philosophers, people trained in antropology, etc, ain't cutting it.  People want to make money and get a job?  Find out what is being produced and what businesses in the US make money, and then get trained in something strongly related to them.

That means, people with strong training in engineering, science, finance, patent law, business and management, nurses and doctors, and a lot of high-tech trades. 


And the common trades are good too.  9/10ths of the plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc, are fucking incompetent and if you are good at one of them and start a business and you are competent, you can make a killing.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Stonehenge]
    #19787888 - 04/03/14 05:12 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Enlil has shut up which means he finally realized he was wrong. If he had any solid comeback he would be here braying it to all and sundry.



Children look for "comebacks."  Adults provide counterpoints.  Since you've yet to make anything resembling a valid point, no counterpoint is necessary.

PROTIP: Silence does not equal assent.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Enlil]
    #19788484 - 04/03/14 09:11 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Well enlil brayed anyway despite not  having anything to say besides insults.

BAL wrote:

>How is it not evidence?

Those are statements, not facts. He gave opinions and did not back them up. It is a fact that illegal immigration is a major factor in loss of employment for americans. Obummer and the dems want to keep illegal immigration going and to stop deportations as the law demands. The left wing media tries to tell us that asking people to show proof of citizenship is profiling and discrimination. No nation on earth allows illegal immigrants to vote yet if a state demands proof of citizenship the media calls them racists. Dems want more illegals because they can be counted on to vote demo, in other words, to vote for more handouts at the public expense.

And that is why, the main reason why, its very hard for real americans to find a job. Enlil himself got canned not long ago and has been unable to find employment beyond the occasional pizza delivery gig.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Stonehenge]
    #19788570 - 04/03/14 09:38 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
It is a fact that illegal immigration is a major factor in loss of employment for americans.


Do you have evidence to support this claim?  Also, this claim is far more plausible than Zappa's claim that it illegal immigration is ENTIRELY to blame for the excess labor force.
Quote:

Enlil himself got canned not long ago and has been unable to find employment beyond the occasional pizza delivery gig.


I've never been fired in my life, kid.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Stonehenge]
    #19788641 - 04/03/14 10:11 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Well enlil brayed anyway despite not  having anything to say besides insults.





Ha. You're one to talk.


Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Those are statements, not facts. He gave opinions and did not back them up. It is a fact that illegal immigration is a major factor in loss of employment for americans. Obummer and the dems want to keep illegal immigration going and to stop deportations as the law demands. The left wing media tries to tell us that asking people to show proof of citizenship is profiling and discrimination. No nation on earth allows illegal immigrants to vote yet if a state demands proof of citizenship the media calls them racists. Dems want more illegals because they can be counted on to vote demo, in other words, to vote for more handouts at the public expense.

And that is why, the main reason why, its very hard for real americans to find a job. Enlil himself got canned not long ago and has been unable to find employment beyond the occasional pizza delivery gig.




The retirement age has increased, there are more two-income homes now than earlier in our history, and manufacturing jobs are readily outsourced. Those are facts, not opinions. Again, showing that any factor other than illegal immigration is involved is enough to disprove the claim.

Now, the claim you made that illegal immigration is a major factor is completely different than the claim zappa made. The claim that you Enlil were butting heads about. Don't mix issues here. Is it entirely to blame, or partially to blame?

Also, I would like to point out that you now made several claims in your post, and didn't back them up except with rhetoric about how the left wing sucks. You provided literally no opinions, statements, or facts supporting why illegal immigration is to blame and how much. So, this is me asking you to provide evidence for your claims.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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OfflineReaperVizions
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Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #19788828 - 04/03/14 11:17 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

I'm just replying to the thread but Businesses are hurting the American economy every business is trying to get things cheap and labor cheap than sell big. All theses company's or some are billion dollar companies walmart I think was worth 165 billion dollars and look how they treated there employees. Minimum wage is not above the poverty line than the workers have to ask the government for help. Now do you know that middle class and the rich spend more government funds than the poor ?

How you think these schools, contracts, roads and clean communities are like this but than we look at the poor people when they get welfare or free stuff. I think the poor get about 12 or 15 billion or less than 12 and the rich and middle get about 20 to 45 billion in funds or more. If 5 cents for gum was cheap than what is the price of gum now ? and did the economy fall in that period ? No okay than so why would you think higher minimum wage would ruin it now if it didn't do it between the period back than and now ?

If businesses fire or not hire because of this than you know it's out of greed or they don't know how to manage money or haven't managed it correctly or no good business sales.

But more money in your pocket will make more spending, so you will hate Obama now but when your pay check is fat and you get about 5 to 700 or more a week check with a little over time in it maybe. Only person who would go against a higher minimum wage is a business or a person who just don't like Obama period. Yes I do know the wall street trick and how companies are doing to us that's another topic.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Stonehenge]
    #19788903 - 04/03/14 11:32 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Well enlil brayed anyway despite not  having anything to say besides insults.




As only he or she who is without insults should cast the first stone... you should be clever enough to refrain.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Enlil]
    #19788965 - 04/03/14 11:46 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
It is a fact that illegal immigration is a major factor in loss of employment for americans.


Do you have evidence to support this claim?  Also, this claim is far more plausible than Zappa's claim that it illegal immigration is ENTIRELY to blame for the excess labor force.
Quote:



I posted statistics that cite 8 million jobs being filled by illegal border jumping scum.  If they were kicked out there would be no excess labor supply.  That is a fact so obvious even an attorney should be able to see it.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: ReaperVizions]
    #19789235 - 04/03/14 12:37 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ReaperVizions said:
I'm just replying to the thread but Businesses are hurting the American economy every business is trying to get things cheap and labor cheap than sell big. All theses company's or some are billion dollar companies walmart I think was worth 165 billion dollars and look how they treated there employees. Minimum wage is not above the poverty line than the workers have to ask the government for help. Now do you know that middle class and the rich spend more government funds than the poor ?

How you think these schools, contracts, roads and clean communities are like this but than we look at the poor people when they get welfare or free stuff. I think the poor get about 12 or 15 billion or less than 12 and the rich and middle get about 20 to 45 billion in funds or more. If 5 cents for gum was cheap than what is the price of gum now ? and did the economy fall in that period ? No okay than so why would you think higher minimum wage would ruin it now if it didn't do it between the period back than and now ?

If businesses fire or not hire because of this than you know it's out of greed or they don't know how to manage money or haven't managed it correctly or no good business sales.

But more money in your pocket will make more spending, so you will hate Obama now but when your pay check is fat and you get about 5 to 700 or more a week check with a little over time in it maybe. Only person who would go against a higher minimum wage is a business or a person who just don't like Obama period. Yes I do know the wall street trick and how companies are doing to us that's another topic.





If two people consentually agree to wages below the minimum wage, why should the government use force to stop them?

do you think it is right for the government to violently force a consenrual agreement to end?


if you think minimum wage is too low, refuse to accept any job that pays wages below what you velueve minimum wage should be.

if you cannot find a job at the wage then you would ve unemployed anyways if the government set minimum wage to that. 

Do you understand?


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Shins]
    #19789391 - 04/03/14 01:08 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

>I posted statistics that cite 8 million jobs being filled by illegal border jumping scum.  If they were kicked out there would be no excess labor supply.  That is a fact so obvious even an attorney should be able to see it.

Good one

I made no insults against enlil, if i had, you lot would have posted them in glee. Enlil disparagingly calls those with other viewpoints "kids" and children. Yes, he is out of work no matter if he denies it. They may have found an illegal to do his job for min wage. If that is not true then why is he spending every day here rather than working? My theory is he is sucking up unemployment and not even looking for a job. Job seekers are out there every day looking, they are not posting on boards giving opinions.

Now, some facts for the far left to chew on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigrant_population_of_the_United_States

>The actual size and the origin of the illegal immigrant population in the United States is uncertain and difficult to ascertain because of difficulty in accurately counting individuals in this population. National surveys, administrative data and other sources of information provide inaccurate measures of the size of the illegal immigrant population and current estimates based on these data indicate that the current population may range from 7 million to 20 million.

>The Center for Immigration Studies in a 2009 report argued, "New government data indicate that immigrants have high rates of criminality...


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19789415 - 04/03/14 01:11 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
It is a fact that illegal immigration is a major factor in loss of employment for americans.


Do you have evidence to support this claim?  Also, this claim is far more plausible than Zappa's claim that it illegal immigration is ENTIRELY to blame for the excess labor force.
Quote:



I posted statistics that cite 8 million jobs being filled by illegal border jumping scum.  If they were kicked out there would be no excess labor supply.  That is a fact so obvious even an attorney should be able to see it.









So, your theory is that if illegal immigration stopped, all of the border patrol employees currently employed deporting people would suddenly switch to picking grapes in the San Joaquin Valley?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Stonehenge]
    #19789426 - 04/03/14 01:13 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
I made no insults against enlil




Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Enlil himself got canned not long ago and has been unable to find employment beyond the occasional pizza delivery gig.




Quote:

Stonehenge said:
I made no insults against enlil




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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Enlil]
    #19789467 - 04/03/14 01:21 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
It is a fact that illegal immigration is a major factor in loss of employment for americans.


Do you have evidence to support this claim?  Also, this claim is far more plausible than Zappa's claim that it illegal immigration is ENTIRELY to blame for the excess labor force.
Quote:



I posted statistics that cite 8 million jobs being filled by illegal border jumping scum.  If they were kicked out there would be no excess labor supply.  That is a fact so obvious even an attorney should be able to see it.









So, your theory is that if illegal immigration stopped, all of the border patrol employees currently employed deporting people would suddenly switch to picking grapes in the San Joaquin Valley?


Is this a joke?  We would still need border patrol employees.  Do you think the border jumping scum are going to stop jumping the border of their own volition?

Instantly add 8 million jobs for Americans, zoom, labor excess over.


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