Home | Community | Message Board

Avalon Magic Plants
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | Next >
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Brian Jones]
    #19751916 - 03/26/14 06:56 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

No.  You'll just get slugs making $10 an hour.

WalMart has a shit reputation because the liberal press hates them.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Brian Jones]
    #19752540 - 03/26/14 08:47 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The point is that raising the minimum wage will incentivize companies to automate more.  Did you not see my previous post on the matter?




Do you think this will cause more unemployment? Because, while it does sound intuitive, this paper presents an opposing view and they support it with data, not just speculation.

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
I know direct comparisons across systems have problems but Australia's minimum wage is $16 in U.S. Dollars and they have lower unemployment.

    In the U.S. Costco pays median wages over $10 and they seem to be prospering, and they don't have the shit reputation that Walmart has.

    If you pay over $10 dollars you can increase efficiency and get rid of the slugs. I don't know whose problem the slugs are but I don't spend time worrying about them, except the mildly disabled people who could benefit from occupational training.




As you said, making a comparison between countries is rarely appropriate. That's why this study uses contiguous counties. I disagree that paying more will lead to higher efficieny. It could, but I don't think it will. I think there are several other benefits to it though.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #19752610 - 03/26/14 08:57 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

I saw that paper some time ago.  It is a favorite of the people who argue that imposing wage hikes will cause no damage.  That study only drew conclusions related to restaurant workers.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19752678 - 03/26/14 09:07 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

They focused on restaurant workers because that is the sector that employs the most minimum wage employees. Besides, was I wrong to assume you were talking about restaurant workers when you said:

Quote:

You can automate a McDonalds line even more than it already is.




--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #19752758 - 03/26/14 09:21 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
They focused on restaurant workers because that is the sector that employs the most minimum wage employees. Besides, was I wrong to assume you were talking about restaurant workers when you said:

Quote:

You can automate a McDonalds line even more than it already is.






Not particularly, it was just a handy example, and I don't think they were talking about fast food restaurants.

Just look at the self checkout lines at the supermarket.  I would posit that each one is a lost job for a checker.

I don't see that study as being any kind of smoking gun.  It is too limited.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/04/17/the-record-is-clear-minimum-wage-hikes-destroy-jobs/

Quote:

In a comprehensive, 182-page summary of the research on this subject from the last two decades, economists David Neumark (UC-Irvine) and William Wascher (Federal Reserve Board) determined that 85 percent of the best research points to a loss of jobs following a minimum wage increase.




http://www.nber.org/papers/w12663.pdf
Quote:


We review the burgeoning literature on the employment effects of minimum wages - in the United
States and other countries - that was spurred by the new minimum wage research beginning in the
early 1990s. Our review indicates that there is a wide range of existing estimates and, accordingly,
a lack of consensus about the overall effects on low-wage employment of an increase in the minimum
wage. However, the oft-stated assertion that recent research fails to support the traditional view that
the minimum wage reduces the employment of low-wage workers is clearly incorrect. A sizable majority
of the studies surveyed in this monograph give a relatively consistent (although not always statistically
significant) indication of negative employment effects of minimum wages. In addition, among the
papers we view as providing the most credible evidence, almost all point to negative employment
effects, both for the United States as well as for many other countries. Two other important conclusions
emerge from our review. First, we see very few - if any - studies that provide convincing evidence
of positive employment effects of minimum wages, especially from those studies that focus on the
broader groups (rather than a narrow industry) for which the competitive model predicts disemployment
effects. Second, the studies that focus on the least-skilled groups provide relatively overwhelming
evidence of stronger disemployment effects for these groups




--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19753539 - 03/27/14 01:34 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Forbes cites the same review you cited when they say "85% of the best research." That same review, says this:

Quote:

Our review indicates that there is a wide range of existing estimates and, accordingly, a lack of consensus about the overall effects on low-wage employment of an increase in the minimum wage




I don't want to argue that this paper is the ultimate answer, but I think it is irresponsible to ignore its findings. Yes, many other papers show a negative effect on job numbers, but many of them use possibly inaccurate controls. Contiguous counties is a good way to eliminate many outside factors. But again, I don't think this paper disproves any of the other ones. I just think it provides a different view.

Is there anything that is inaccurate or biased in the paper that you found?

The overall point I am trying to make is that I often hear it stated as fact that raising the minimum wage will lead to lots of job losses. Sure this sounds reasonable, but as the review you cited points out, there is no consensus, so it shouldn't be spread as fact.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #19754373 - 03/27/14 08:46 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

I included the direct link because it was what Forbes cited.  I did not intend to provide it as an additional source.

What do you mean by "lots" of job losses?  Can we afford any at all now that the labor participation rate is at an historic low and expected to take a hit due to Obamacare as well?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,795
Loc: Ottawa Flag
Last seen: 2 hours, 23 minutes
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19759549 - 03/28/14 11:33 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

I'm sure that raising the minimum salary has some effect on employment. Just a LOT less than what the extreme right wingers try to make us believe. I can imagine an entrepreneur having tto cut the hours of his employees or fire one of them because of an increase of 1$ per hour (roughly 2000$ a year). Then again I would strongly suggest to the entrepreneur to change the way he does business or simply close his shop cause if 2000 dollar brings him to the brink of bankruptcy he's doing something wrong and or shouldn't be in business.

Far right wingers seem to think that adding 25 cent to the minimum salary will have an effect so great that millions of people will be let go... It can't be. Maybe just maybe one out of a thousand employees will lose his job or see his hours cut. But nothing more than that...


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Patlal]
    #19759746 - 03/28/14 12:22 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

They aren't talking about 25 cents.  They are talking about approximately ten times that amount.  A federal minimum wage is idiotic and an improper imposition on states and business by the federal oligarchy which already fucks business.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Patlal]
    #19759859 - 03/28/14 12:47 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Then again I would strongly suggest to the entrepreneur to change the way he does business or simply close his shop cause if 2000 dollar brings him to the brink of bankruptcy he's doing something wrong and or shouldn't be in business.




:laugh2:

Says the guy who never owned one.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19759897 - 03/28/14 12:57 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

He actually does own a business.  He owns a house and rents rooms out.  He collects the rent in cash and evades taxes.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19759937 - 03/28/14 01:05 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Then again I would strongly suggest to the entrepreneur to change the way he does business or simply close his shop cause if 2000 dollar brings him to the brink of bankruptcy he's doing something wrong and or shouldn't be in business.




:laugh2:

Says the guy who never owned one.



exactly. So many people live from paycheck to paycheck, not realizing that most small business's aren't in much better of a situation, having extremely small profit margins. People think business and automatically assume Walmart, Mcdonalds, etc. But owning a small business is not intrinsically profitable as people assume.

Also the irony is fucking astounding :lol: when people say if you want a higher paying job you should work harder, gain more skills, rely on yourself, etc. The left screams and cries. However they won't hesitate a second to tell small business owners to "deal with it," "figure it out on your own," etc.


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,372
Loc: You get banned for saying that Flag
Last seen: 2 hours, 59 minutes
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: psyconaught]
    #19760035 - 03/28/14 01:28 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

A person can own a small business and as a consultant have almost no over head. Small business owners do have small profits, but not necessarily margins. Their percentages are the same as everyone else, they just dont rely on a calculation that at .25 cent profit per consumer at a million consumers per week they make $250,000 a week. Some small businesses seem to make $150 an hour personal profit, same as any high paid salary employee.

So liberals tell small business owners to "deal with it" huh? And what do Republicans say.. "fuck you oil and gas" I mean.... "we support you"?

:lol:

Isnt America supported by the consumer? So what happens if minimum wage is dropped to $2 an hour? Nobody spends on chewing gum because they are all broke, so how does wriggley chewing gum maintain billions profits needed for share holders to maintain selling power of the stock?

:facepalm: one thing no one ever admits is how over consumer dependent this country fucking is, how dependent it is people constantly buying shit they dont ever need nor will they, time shared, useless shit etc. And yet Republicans are always talking about how the poor need to "deal with it" and "stop complaining." If people just buy what they need and that only, who will support your over consumer dependent stock market? Is this argument for children or what?


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,372
Loc: You get banned for saying that Flag
Last seen: 2 hours, 59 minutes
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Patlal]
    #19760046 - 03/28/14 01:31 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
I'm sure that raising the minimum salary has some effect on employment. Just a LOT less than what the extreme right wingers try to make us believe. I can imagine an entrepreneur having tto cut the hours of his employees or fire one of them because of an increase of 1$ per hour (roughly 2000$ a year). Then again I would strongly suggest to the entrepreneur to change the way he does business or simply close his shop cause if 2000 dollar brings him to the brink of bankruptcy he's doing something wrong and or shouldn't be in business.

Far right wingers seem to think that adding 25 cent to the minimum salary will have an effect so great that millions of people will be let go... It can't be. Maybe just maybe one out of a thousand employees will lose his job or see his hours cut. But nothing more than that...




But they dont seem to think adding $250,000 to the price of every single house is an issue


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: imachavel]
    #19760048 - 03/28/14 01:31 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

What would happen if the minimum wage was dropped to $2 an hour?  Nothing.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleStonehenge
Alt Center
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19760314 - 03/28/14 02:32 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

If the min was raised it would not only cause unemployment and offshoring to increase, it would also cause prices to rise. Think about it, restaurants, etc charge cost plus a profit. Wages are big part of costs for any business, especially someplace like macdonalds.

So, joe sixpack gets a raise in min wage, turns around and finds food and all other commodities have gone up in price. His raise lasts just long enough for the ripple effects to go through the economy and he finds himself basically back where he started. Since it didn't work, he wants another raise, and another, etc.

It comes down to the fact you can't get something for nothing, a fact the left is unwilling to admit. They will tell you business is making a fortune and can "afford" to pay more. They can also afford to shift production overseas, which they will do. Many businesses operate on a slim profit margin, not a huge one. Competition is dog eat dog and a fat profit margin will attract lots of competitors eager to take some of it away.

But i know that makes too much sense so go back to ranting and raving.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19760318 - 03/28/14 02:32 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
He actually does own a business.  He owns a house and rents rooms out.  He collects the rent in cash and evades taxes.




I know what he does. It's not a business.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleStonehenge
Alt Center
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19760385 - 03/28/14 02:49 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Renting rooms is not a business? Someone aught to tell hilton, days inn, etc.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Stonehenge]
    #19760386 - 03/28/14 02:50 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Should he begin to run a hotel, that'd be a business. Renting rooms in your house doesn't qualify.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,470
Loc: Uncanny Valley
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19760554 - 03/28/14 03:36 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
the labor participation rate is at an historic low



Do you have a source to support this claim?  According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the participation rate is far higher than it was throughout most of the 20th century, and is only slightly lower than it was in 2000.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | Next >

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Minimum Wage Revisited
( 1 2 all )
Evolving 4,350 33 04/15/04 12:49 PM
by Tao
* A couple of questions on the minimum wage
( 1 2 all )
Evolving 3,512 29 10/21/03 03:40 PM
by Evolving
* Should minimum wage be raised?
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
RebelSteve33 9,841 94 08/03/12 12:52 AM
by vladtepes
* Corporate pay scales...
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
GazzBut 4,003 84 11/09/04 05:17 PM
by Anonymous
* The young are becoming less liberal
( 1 2 3 4 ... 9 10 all )
Phred 11,875 195 11/17/03 12:16 PM
by Anonymous
* Are Americans more evil?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Swami 5,467 64 12/18/03 10:13 AM
by medicinebag
* Officials get taste of how lower income live
( 1 2 all )
Edame 2,922 38 12/16/03 03:03 PM
by monoamine
* Weapons of Minimum Destruction Ravus 885 6 08/23/04 01:55 PM
by retread

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
11,403 topic views. 3 members, 2 guests and 2 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.021 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 13 queries.