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OfflinePed
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Re: We are definatly slaves to money. [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #1981699 - 10/05/03 05:42 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

A child when it is born is essentially wild. Sudden throwbacks to infancy are like the reminiscence of a dejected youth. Increased isolation, decreased concentration, and the hysteria you refer to all fit the picture I have in mind.


--------------------


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: We are definatly slaves to money. [Re: Ped]
    #1982924 - 10/06/03 02:49 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, children are essentially wild until they're repressed and trained to reject what they understand of the world innately. This isn't to say that we should become children. Are you implying that primal peoples are childish? Primal people are wild by any definition but that doesn't make them hysterical, isolated or lacking concentration. Quite the opposite. In fact, there are many more examples of adults like that in domestic civilization than there are in wild tribal cultures. Possibly this is because they are more psychologically intact. Thier culture isn't constantly leaving them in a state of terror, they aren't threatened with the requirement to sell thier time, bodies and minds in order to survive and be a respected member of thier society.

I'm not at all saying that we should just start living like nomadic hunters and gatherers and be tribal again, this is clearly not possible due to the scarcity of resources (since we've used them all up) and the sheer number of people now alive. What I'm saying is that it's wise to compare our domestic culture to wild tribal cultures and see what it is that we can emulate, recreate in our own world in order to make the life process possible, and even fulfilling in the coming century. It's clear that we must change or risk annihilating ourselves. Why not look to cultures that live in balance for inspiriation?


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: We are definatly slaves to money. [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #1983082 - 10/06/03 04:42 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

money is really nuts. here's my beef with it. how can you say paper is worth so much in gold? where is this conversion factor? and not just gold, "other precious metals" whatever. how can you convert the cost of tearing down trees, thus slowly creating complications with nature's system?
Unfortunately reality shows that humans don't want to even know what respecting the earth means. First of all, i think it would mean that we need to live in peace with each other. ah but such simple but high mountains to climb.
There's just so many people here it's kinda scary. i think industry has played a major role in the way we treat mother earth and our overpopulating of our planet. we want to stay alive a lot longer and yet we have more people than we can handle.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: We are definatly slaves to money. [Re: kaiowas]
    #1983159 - 10/06/03 05:54 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)


"Unfortunately reality shows that humans don't want to even know what respecting the earth means. First of all, i think it would mean that we need to live in peace with each other. ah but such simple but high mountains to climb "


I take a slightly more hopeful approach: Most humans at this time aren't facing up to it, but I think that prehistory offers evidence that humans are quite capable of respecting the earth, what we've taken is a detour, its an abberation. I think its in our most basic nature to want harmony with our environment but there's just so much going on that most of us are overwhelmed and since we don't know where to begin we shut it all out and distract ourselves instead of facing such pain. I'm hopeful that this can change.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: We are definatly slaves to money. [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #1983167 - 10/06/03 06:02 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I believe we are either going through the "terrible two's" stage or perhaps our rebellious, teen age years... :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

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:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflinePed
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Re: We are definatly slaves to money. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1983664 - 10/06/03 01:16 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

NiamhNyx, I think I may have initially misunderstood you.

I had meant not to apply such traits as hysteria or isolation to primitive peoples. Rather, I meant to apply them to industrialized culture today, and what I perceive to be it's troublesome adolescence as a species.

There has come over us as a species this terribly urgent need to identify ourselves against an other, be it the culturally ratified projection of an authoritative God figure, the obsession with psychic intuition of the decesased, or the belief in extraterrestrial life. This type of grasping reminds us of the behaviour of an ego, establishing and clinging to an illusiory identity based upon the reflection of ourselves against an at least partially mythological backdrop. In this case it can be described as the Super Ego, the Ego of humankind as a collective. Osho is much clearer than I am on the matter.

Ego is inherently insecure. We are all aware that the more insecure the ego becomes, the more anguish is felt by the party in question. I feel that such problems as racism, the drug war, the paranoia evoked by the homosexual movement, and the fixations on ascetheticism, instant gratification and material things, all reflect the sense of danger felt by the unsteady and certainly impermanent collective human Ego.

NiamhNyx, could you elaborate on the benefits you see in adopting some of the practices of more primitive civilizations? I certainly agree that we have a lot to learn from such people as the Native Americans, the ancient Chinese, or tribal people's of the Amazon basin. What specifically did you have in mind?


--------------------


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Anonymous

Re: We are definatly slaves to money. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1990960 - 10/08/03 08:17 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Native Americans adopted to the places they lived in. Perfect balance.

that's the sort of stereotype i'm talking about. what'd'you mean by balance?

many of them were very wasteful and unsustainable in their hunting and agricultural practices.

i used to be an anthropology major. i took a few classes on native americans before i switched majors. believe me. most of the stuff you hear about the natives is totally false. perhaps the biggest myth is this whole "perfect harmony with nature" thing. it's a sort of stereotype, and that's it.


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Offlineentiformatie
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Re: We are definatly slaves to money. [Re: whole9]
    #1991343 - 10/08/03 10:38 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

im gonna reply, and then read responses, so if somebody alredy sed this, sorry:

money isn't evil. it's us, and our greed. the greed is there regardless of the money. people are greedy when they barter too.


--------------------
/opinion
.sean


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: We are definatly slaves to money. [Re: ]
    #1992428 - 10/09/03 07:43 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
that's the sort of stereotype i'm talking about. what'd'you mean by balance?




A stereotype? Bah. Balance? I mean that they realized their part in the circle of life and lived it. Balance in all forms is necessary.

Quote:


many of them were very wasteful and unsustainable in their hunting and agricultural practices.




Where do you get this from? Care to list any tribe names, maybe? I have never heard anything at all to suggest that this is true. Very wasteful? Ever ride a sled made from the ribs of a buffalo? When was the last time one of us went out deer hunting, used all of the meat,

Where were the cleared forests when we arrived? Or the rotting carcasses of dead animals that they wantonly used? And then tanned the hides of the animal, used it for blankets and clothes, and then used the bones for different implements and tools? Ever use an animal shoulderblade to plow?

Un-fucking-sustainable?? They sustained themselves on this continent for thousands and thousands of fucking years! The only time they were ever unsustainable was when we came in, purposely shot their game, divided their land for ourselves, killed most of them, spread disease, and ruined any sustainability of their culture and livelihood.

So, how much forest do we have now? How overpopulated are we now? How balanced would you say we are with nature?

Quote:


i used to be an anthropology major. i took a few classes on native americans before i switched majors. believe me. most of the stuff you hear about the natives is totally false. perhaps the biggest myth is this whole "perfect harmony with nature" thing. it's a sort of stereotype, and that's it.




I just don't believe shit because someone said it, man. Care to bring in some references? I'd love to read them.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinemoogle
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Re: We are definatly slaves to money. [Re: ]
    #1993175 - 10/09/03 02:03 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

1. "they" do not exist.



Ah, I see. You are one of those guys. One of those non-conspiracy theorists. No matter the number coincidences or correlations, you will always come up with some theory to deny the possibility of any existence of any underlying or motive force. Everything is safe, happy, bubbly, and magical in your disney-world. You should seek help, man.

Quote:

2. currency isn't what's causing the problem here.



In and of itself, currency doesn't cause the problem, which I believe is a government with far too much power subjecting its citizens, rather than the other way around, which would be with a government by and for the people. How did the government encroach upon and gather up so much power it should not have? One way was confiscating all the gold currency in 1933, destroying the constitutional currency that had been in effect since the creation of this Republic, and eventually replacing it with Promissory Notes. The gold standard had then become no standard at all, but a promise by the government. At any point the government so chooses, they can say, "Each of our promissory notes are no longer valid, we exported all your businesses and land-deeds across seas, and you're all suckers." If your wealth is in merely this government's promissory notes, the government has the power to take all your wealth away in a flash. But, our government is very unlikely to do that, as they can still sucker work out of all of us by continually inflating the supply, since a large majority of people believe that Federal Reserve Notes are worth more than the paper they're written on. By controlling the money supply, you have an incredible influence over the people depending on that money supply.

This influence will demonstrably increase, when the government's power of the money supply increases. Lets say, for example, that the government successfully convinces everyone that paper money is obsolete, and creditcards or even id-chips are more convenient. Have you ever only had a credit card on you, tried to purchase something, only to find that the vendor won't accept the card? You don't have the ability to make the transaction. The government can decide what kinds of transactions you can make, by making the id-chip/credit cards only valid under certain circumstances. Many of the 'laws' enforced by the government have nothing to do with protection of the citizens or upholding the Law, but merely exist as acquisitions of power, wresting freedom from each of its subjects by additional chains and controls.

EDIT: Punctuation.


--------------------
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

-- Herbert Spencer


Edited by moogle (10/09/03 02:07 PM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: We are definatly slaves to money. [Re: moogle]
    #1993244 - 10/09/03 02:26 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Dude, moogle, I am really liking your post so far, man. Five shrooms for you! :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Anonymous

Re: We are definatly slaves to money. [Re: moogle]
    #1993333 - 10/09/03 02:53 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Ah, I see. You are one of those guys. One of those non-conspiracy theorists. No matter the number coincidences or correlations, you will always come up with some theory to deny the possibility of any existence of any underlying or motive force. Everything is safe, happy, bubbly, and magical in your disney-world. You should seek help, man.

ok... who are they?

By controlling the money supply, you have an incredible influence over the people depending on that money supply.

simple failure to understand economics. paper money produced by the government accounts for %5 of the currency in this country. banks are the ones that create create the money. the only way that the government can influence the supply of money is by adjusting the fed rate. even then, if it's set too high, the economy will crash and unemployment will run rampant. if it's set to low, we will have runaway inflation. the economy is a vast, interconnected netword that you just can't decide you want to fuck around with.

what really matters is the actual amounts and varieties of goods and services produced, not green slips of paper.

about being "slaves to money"... it could perhaps be said that we are slaves to consumer products... slaves to the material world... slaves to our own biological realities... as a living creatures, you need certain material things if you want to continue to function in this form. some of them require productive effort in order to attain. working is a natural part of life.

maybe we are slaves to money. why is this? because we use money to buy things like food, water, and shelter. you could of course acquire these things on your own without involving yourself with money, but most people find specialization to be convenient and efficient.

unless you want to live off the land on some mountainside or something(and no one is preventing you from doing this) you need to get the necessities you need to live from someone else. this means exchanging something with them for it. this means currency.


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Anonymous

Re: We are definatly slaves to money. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1993386 - 10/09/03 03:06 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Where do you get this from? Care to list any tribe names, maybe?

if you knew anything about native americans, you'd know that for most of the history, the tribe level of organization was actually quite rare. categorizing natives into different culture groups (usually distinguished by different languages, or pottery, or especially projectile point designs) is what is done by anthropologists.

Very wasteful? Ever ride a sled made from the ribs of a buffalo? When was the last time one of us went out deer hunting, used all of the meat,

i could give you many examples of animals hunted to extinction by the natives during the paleoindian period if you'd like.

during their bison (buffalo do not live in the americas) drives, natives commonly drove hundreds of bison off cliffs, often leaving up to 75% of the meat to rot.

Un-fucking-sustainable?? They sustained themselves on this continent for thousands and thousands of fucking years!

12,000 years from the first person to cross the ice-bridge. by the time the europeans came, they were practicing agriculture and in some areas had large governmental bureaucracies and trade networks. it was not a hunter-gatherer utopia. land was ruined by erosion and salinization, animals hunted to extinction, and they had massive wars, famines, and droughts, just like other early cultures around the world had.

bah... i give up. think what you'd like, but what you have been taught about native americans is a totally stereotyped pop-education version. take some college-level anth courses about the natives, or read some thorough books, and you will see that most of the stereotypes we have about the natives are exactly that-stereotypes.

i'm sorry if i've shattered any delusions.


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Offlinemoogle
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Re: We are definatly slaves to money. [Re: ]
    #1993778 - 10/09/03 04:37 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ok... who are they?



Let's suppose f(x) is some discrete function of x, and that all physically living people have an invisible, distinct, and random number stamped on their asses, ranging from 1 to n, where n is the total number of physically alive people (at some set time). Let us also suppose that for every moment in time, every individual person's ability to influence or change the world can be quantatively defined as some value, this definition being f(x) = y. For reasons of trying not to be too absurd, f(x) will not be exactly defined here, but it will involve a person's social connections, material possessions, and abstract possessions [knowledge], and be described as units of personal power (UPP).

Plot f(x) on a graph, and you will have roughly 6 billion points scattered above the x-axis, in most likely a very chaotic arrangement.
Now we will find every single possible value (ranges of values will be better, if everyone's UPP can be defined so well that none are alike) f(x) or y can equal, and number the times it equals that. Now we can create something called a "Distribution Graph", an example of which being the bell-curve of everyone's 'I.Q.'s. We do this by creating another function, g(y), where y is a continuum of all possible UPPs, and g(y) = z = the amount of times that y-value is plotted on our 6-billion-strong scatterplot. Let us suppose that g(y) looks like a series of humps, the magnitude of which decrease as we travel up the y-axis.

I'll try to draw and attach a 3-d graph (actually 2 2-d graphs at right angles to each other) now, however on this graph all people will be ordered from least to most influential, simply for ease of demonstration.



It doesn't seem perfectly 3-d, but bear with me.

With these 'humps' that we see, let's suppose we can categorize the representative people into a hierarchic figure based upon the humps, where less fortunate people (with regards to UPP) reside in large groups on the bottom, and more and more fortunate people reside in smaller and smaller groups, higher and higher up the hierarchic model.

This hierarchic model might resemble the side-view of a pyramid, and "they" could be considered to be the higher/highest echelons within this hierarchy.

Damnit, now I need to take a break.


--------------------
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

-- Herbert Spencer


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OfflineScarfmeister
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Re: We are definatly slaves to money. [Re: Strumpling]
    #1993939 - 10/09/03 05:17 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

why would a supposed shadow government want to brain wash us? they are already in control and have power. Why the global brainwash conspiracy?



--------------------
--------------------
We're the lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth!


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Offlinemoogle
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Re: We are definatly slaves to money. [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #1993985 - 10/09/03 05:29 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

why would a supposed shadow government want to brain wash us? they are already in control and have power. Why the global brainwash conspiracy?




What do concentrations of power seek?


--------------------
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

-- Herbert Spencer


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Offlinemoogle
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Re: We are definatly slaves to money. [Re: ]
    #1994166 - 10/09/03 06:25 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
...paper money produced by the government accounts for %5 of the currency in this country. banks are the ones that [create] the money. the only way that the government can influence the supply of money is by adjusting the fed rate. even then, if it's set too high, the economy will crash and unemployment will run rampant. if it's set to low, we will have runaway inflation. the economy is a vast, interconnected netword that you just can't decide you want to fuck around with.




The interest rate the fed sets basically sets the amount by which banks lend [lend should be read as: print out of thin air, or simply create "credit" by adding to some value in their financial database -- this is digital money] money, as lower interest rates encourage mortgaging, and raising interest rates discourages mortgaging, correct?

Why can the fed increasing the interest rate crash the economy, making unemployment go rampant? Hint: the economy's current basis is an arrangement of endless borrowing to pay unpayable-debt.

Why can the fed decreasing the interest rate cause runaway inflation?
Hint: many will mortgage and take credit on anything they can, because they will want the capital to 'live the american dream', and create or expand a business.

But all of this is really beside the point. The government can do more than 'just set fed rates'. All your grandparents' gold was stolen, remember? The government has the power to destroy instantaneously the monetary wealth of all it's citizens -- that is an incredible power to have, especially if a foreign party infiltrates the mechanisms governing the country's monetary supply, and uses this as blackmail, such as holding a gun to your head and ordering you around.

Quote:

unless you want to live off the land on some mountainside or something(and no one is preventing you from doing this) you need to get the necessities you need to live from someone else. this means exchanging something with them for it. this means currency.




Exactly. To function in this (U.S.) society, you need the government currency, and this is why:

Quote:

moogle said:
By controlling the money supply, you have an incredible influence over the people depending on that money supply.



Whoever owns/controls the federal reserve, can suck enough of the money out of circulation by foreclosing on all the loans and refusing to issue new ones, such that there will be services and commodities to be traded, but there will be no money to make the trades, as all transactions in the U.S. depend on the government's promissory notes, and the economy will go into an enormous depression. The fed has done it in 1929, and will do it again when it serves "their" interests.


--------------------
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

-- Herbert Spencer


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: We are definatly slaves to money. [Re: moogle]
    #1995303 - 10/09/03 11:25 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

yo i only read half this post but I agree with yall on page 1 that we should be able to live off the earth and shit, i plan when i have money to buy property with a lake and a stream on it, and have my own well for water, and grow vegtbles and and have fruit trees and stuff, and a few windmills, and solor panals(which by the time I can afford them will be very effective and cheap hopefully) for power. And I will be self effeciant and free from money, except anything extra I wanted to buy , like oh for say, going to a movie, or .
peace


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: We are definatly slaves to money. [Re: 2Experimental]
    #1995583 - 10/10/03 12:45 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

sounds great in theory...call me when you establish


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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Offlineentiformatie
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Re: We are definatly slaves to money. [Re: ]
    #1996355 - 10/10/03 09:25 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

nobody is perfect, including the indians. and it was my anthropolgy teacher that taught me this (myth, ritual, and mysticism). but that was only 1 tribe I believe. If you want, you can go more in detail about who did that. I'd be surprised (but not disbelieve) that it was the Mayans. The sent out prayers when they killed. You'd have to pray a whole fucking lot for all those damn buffalos you ran off that cliff


--------------------
/opinion
.sean


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