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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Can you recommend a book on The Big Bang model of the universe? [Re: Confucian]
    #19629747 - 02/28/14 09:28 AM (10 years, 21 days ago)

So in other words, no discussion, just..



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InvisibleConfucian
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Re: Can you recommend a book on The Big Bang model of the universe? [Re: DieCommie]
    #19629897 - 02/28/14 10:13 AM (10 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

I'm saying that noone in this thread is qualified to talk about the Big Bang.




I think I'm qualified to talk about it.  I'm not a world class expert, but I have a couple degrees in physics and taught astronomy at the university while in grad school.




Ok, 1 person in this thread knows what they are talking about.

There may be others, but I am pretty sure if you put Wiccan on one side of the room, and Hawking, Tyson, Krauss, Greene, et. al on the other.

Not only would Wiccan be royally embarrassed. He wouldn't be able to even follow what they were talking about. I'd like to see his reaction as soon as those equations went up.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Can you recommend a book on The Big Bang model of the universe? [Re: Confucian] * 3
    #19629998 - 02/28/14 10:45 AM (10 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

I am pretty sure if you put Wiccan on one side of the room, and Hawking, Tyson, Krauss, Greene, et. al on the other.

Not only would Wiccan be royally embarrassed. He wouldn't be able to even follow what they were talking about.




Thing is, they arent in the other side of the room, YOU are in the other side of the room amd all you can come up with is "Gee Wiccan I dont really know what you're saying but my heroes cant be wrong so you must be wrong."

The way you argue the case, by appealing to authority and resorting to personalisms rather than addressing the issues raised makes you lose this discussion regardless of who's right.

The equasions don't matter, you fail to address every point made.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Can you recommend a book on The Big Bang model of the universe? [Re: Asante] * 1
    #19630069 - 02/28/14 11:15 AM (10 years, 21 days ago)

The logical fallacy is appeal to improper authority, not appeal to authority in general.  When he appeals to a cosmologist or physicist for information on the big bang he is not committing a fallacy, he is appealing to proper authority.  When you appeal to Shulgin and crackpot website you are appealing to an improper authority and you are committing a logical fallacy.

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InvisibleDawks
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Re: Can you recommend a book on The Big Bang model of the universe? [Re: Confucian] * 2
    #19630482 - 02/28/14 12:52 PM (10 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Confucian said:
I'm saying that noone in this thread is qualified to talk about the Big Bang. It requires a lifetime of study.




You don't need a degree in mycology to talk about mushrooms and fungi, you don't need a degree in chemistry to talk about droogz and you don't need a degree in physics to talk about the big bang.

Just because you're academically unqualified doesn't mean your barred from even discussing something :lol:


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InvisibleConfucian
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Re: Can you recommend a book on The Big Bang model of the universe? [Re: Dawks]
    #19630969 - 02/28/14 02:45 PM (10 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Dawks said:
Quote:

Confucian said:
I'm saying that noone in this thread is qualified to talk about the Big Bang. It requires a lifetime of study.




You don't need a degree in mycology to talk about mushrooms and fungi, you don't need a degree in chemistry to talk about droogz and you don't need a degree in physics to talk about the big bang.

Just because you're academically unqualified doesn't mean your* barred from even discussing something :lol:




*you're

He's not discussing. He is saying that the Big Bang never happened. And he has a couple basic astronomy 101 questions he doesn't have the answer to so he thinks he's disproved the Big Bang. (I can't answer his questions because, as I've previously admitted, I am not a scientist.)

If you look at the 3rd comment of this thread Wiccan said if I am interested in made-up myths like the Big Bang then I should look at the Bible or Quran.

He went on to say, and I quote: "If you're young you'll probably see the big bang theory debunked" and then "it never happened. We're in an eternal universe and the big bang is an illusion."

Then he said this: "The Big Bang theory seems elegant, but if you look closely at the details its about as elegant as a rhino in a pink speedo."

Then he posted this link in BIG FONT to support his opinion:


When you go to the link (WhatReallyHappened.com!) you can see a ton of links at the top: FAKETERROR, THEMYSTERYOFTHESPHINX, WACO, JFK, you get the point.

Sure - he can discuss the Big Bang, but he has no credibility. As another person pointed out, he may even have a few screws loose to believe conspiracy websites > the scientific method.

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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: Can you recommend a book on The Big Bang model of the universe? [Re: Confucian] * 3
    #19631316 - 02/28/14 04:19 PM (10 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Confucian said:
Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Quote:

Confucian said:

They were 10 sec to 20min after the bang when nucleosynthesis had produced all those baryons.. and that conveniently light years away and inexplicably cooled down to prevent mass creation of heavy elements.





All Physics breaks down at the Planck wall, .00000000000000000000000000000000000000001 of a second after the Big Bang...






Thats quite the copout, so are you saying the universe was magic for one brief moment in time?




I'm saying that noone in this thread is qualified to talk about the Big Bang. It requires a lifetime of study. If you just get the basic principles behind the theory then you're not qualified. If you couldn't walk into Harvard's Department of Mathematics and substitute teach every single class then you have no business trying to show how the Big Bang is incorrect. If you guys are so smart then put your ideas into the language of mathematics! Take as much time as you need!





If you cannot explain it then you really dont understand it and your belief in the theory itself is faith based. Why must I understand to descredit but have to know nothing to believe? And before you start an argument of authority, no. Thats not a legitimate response. I dont need a degree to see that "the laws of physics broke down" equates to " the universe was magic, for a few seconds"

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Can you recommend a book on The Big Bang model of the universe? [Re: Bodhi of Ankou] * 1
    #19631559 - 02/28/14 05:35 PM (10 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

I dont need a degree to see that "the laws of physics broke down" equates to " the universe was magic, for a few seconds"




So what?  Are you really claiming that acknowledging the bounds and regime that a theory is applicable in is somehow bad?

Yes, scientifically unexplained phenomenon is often regarded as magic, both in a tongue in cheek fashion and literally.  The more scientifically ignorant you are the more magic exists in your world.

Edited by DieCommie (02/28/14 05:43 PM)

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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: Can you recommend a book on The Big Bang model of the universe? [Re: DieCommie] * 3
    #19631677 - 02/28/14 06:06 PM (10 years, 21 days ago)

Yes thats all good and fun but if a theory falls apart at the beginning then it really isnt much of a theory. Its well that we can explain a lot of phenomenon mathematically but the big bang is really nothing more then a crackpot theory based on assumption and shaky work arounds.

Before you go all "science hurr durr"

Prove it.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Can you recommend a book on The Big Bang model of the universe? [Re: Bodhi of Ankou] * 2
    #19631727 - 02/28/14 06:18 PM (10 years, 21 days ago)

You dont prove things in science.  You show them with evidence.  Proof happens under axioms which are assumed for the sake of the proof.  Thats why a proof is a mathematical idea.  In science the axioms are called postulates and they are never taken as unassailable.  To do so would contradict the fundamental philosophy of science that all conclusions are tentative with respect to evidence.

Quote:

Yes thats all good and fun but if a theory falls apart at the beginning then it really isnt much of a theory.




Nope, that is not how theories work.  All theories have bounds, none are purported to apply to all phenomenon, everywhere at every time.  You wouldn't use cell theory to describe plate tectonics, you wouldn't use atomic theory to describe population dynamics and you wouldn't use the theory of evolution by natural selection to describe the solar wind.  By the same token you would not use quantum theory to describe phenomenon before the first plank interval.  All theories have bounds and acknowledging them is a strength of science, not a weakness.  Investigating where the bounds specifically are and what modifications or new theories are needed to cross those bounds is what scientists do.

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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: Can you recommend a book on The Big Bang model of the universe? [Re: DieCommie] * 2
    #19631734 - 02/28/14 06:20 PM (10 years, 21 days ago)

lol. Dude. The entire theory is about the beginning.

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Can you recommend a book on The Big Bang model of the universe? [Re: Bodhi of Ankou] * 1
    #19631758 - 02/28/14 06:25 PM (10 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
lol. Dude. The entire theory is about the beginning.




No its not.  That is a common misconception.  The big bang theory describes the evolution of the universe after the "beginning" and makes predictions about the evolution of the universe into the future.  There is no scientific theory about the instantaneous "beginning" or initial "cause" of the universe.  There are hypothesis and conjecture, but no theory.

The timeline of the big bang;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Big_Bang

The plank epoch;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_epoch
Quote:

As there presently exists no widely accepted framework for how to combine quantum mechanics with relativistic gravity, science is not currently able to make predictions about events occurring over intervals shorter than the Planck time or distances shorter than one Planck length, the distance light travels in one Planck time—about 1.616 × 10−35 meters.




You can consider it magic if you want...  Im happy to acknowledge ignorance along with the scientists.

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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: Can you recommend a book on The Big Bang model of the universe? [Re: DieCommie] * 4
    #19631774 - 02/28/14 06:31 PM (10 years, 21 days ago)

:facepalm:

This is exactly like arguing against some religious nut with a bible. It describes the beginning it pretains to the beginning everything about it hinges on wheather or not it actually burst forth from a singularity and how that happened. The data they use to imply those findings has other potential meanings, and some of it, portions critical to the thoery like redshift have patterns that suggest something other then a bigbang. Its not even a theory its totally hypothetical at this point.

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Can you recommend a book on The Big Bang model of the universe? [Re: Bodhi of Ankou] * 1
    #19631808 - 02/28/14 06:39 PM (10 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

everything about it hinges on wheather or not it actually burst forth from a singularity and how that happened.




Nope.  That is a misconception.  The big bang theory describes and predicts the evolution of the universe after the plank epoch.  It has nothing to say about the time before that.  If new evidence suggested that the universe was not a singularity but a small finite size in the plank epoch that would not necessarily invalidate the big bang theory. 

I picked out the relevant portion of those links and quoted it for you.

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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: Can you recommend a book on The Big Bang model of the universe? [Re: DieCommie] * 2
    #19631824 - 02/28/14 06:44 PM (10 years, 21 days ago)

Redshift quantization, cant explain that, periocities, patterns to whats been assumed to be an indication of the universes expansion, which if it has been from a singularity would be random. The crux of the entire theory.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Can you recommend a book on The Big Bang model of the universe? [Re: Bodhi of Ankou] * 2
    #19631872 - 02/28/14 06:57 PM (10 years, 21 days ago)

You are changing the subject now.  Lets resolve the old one before you dive into a whole new set of buzz phrases.

Do you acknowledge that the big bang theory does not purport to describe the universe in the first plank interval?

I can throw out buzz phrases too... Redshit as a function of distance, cosmic background radiation in thermal equilibrium across non-causally linked distances, abundance of light elements...

As for your buzz phrases, they dont seem to hold much credibility among cosmologists. 
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0606294
Why do they hold credibility to you?

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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: Can you recommend a book on The Big Bang model of the universe? [Re: DieCommie] * 3
    #19631894 - 02/28/14 07:01 PM (10 years, 21 days ago)

Thats been in everysingle last one of my posts pretty much. Something youve never bothered to address and are now predictably pushing off to the side. What im mentioning is an observable phenomenon that runs directly counter to it, which if you really run with the tenents of science you would have no problem addressing and adjusting for.

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Can you recommend a book on The Big Bang model of the universe? [Re: Bodhi of Ankou] * 1
    #19631938 - 02/28/14 07:15 PM (10 years, 21 days ago)

.

Edited by DieCommie (11/18/16 01:40 PM)

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Can you recommend a book on The Big Bang model of the universe? [Re: DieCommie] * 1
    #19632016 - 02/28/14 07:38 PM (10 years, 21 days ago)

I'm gonna have to go with DieCommie on this one.  Inflation theory is well-backed.  Whatever happened at the initial instant, we don't know.  But a few femtoseconds after whatever happened happened, the universe burst outward, accelerated, slowed down, and then started accelerating again.  Hubble observed this as all of the galaxies we can see are accelerating away from us.

Whatever caused it to go 'boom,' it did go boom.  We can trace the expansion back to within microseconds of the beginning of time.

(And in inflationary theory, the inflationary field developed a rift, or a bubble, and this was the big bang.  Now all we have to do is confirm once-and-for-all Guth's Inflation, and we'll know exactly what happened.  Inflationary theory has existed for quite some time.  It's a pretty solid candidate for explaining it.)


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Can you recommend a book on The Big Bang model of the universe? [Re: DieCommie]
    #19632059 - 02/28/14 07:54 PM (10 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
You dont prove things in science.  You show them with evidence.  Proof happens under axioms which are assumed for the sake of the proof.  Thats why a proof is a mathematical idea.  In science the axioms are called postulates and they are never taken as unassailable.  To do so would contradict the fundamental philosophy of science that all conclusions are tentative with respect to evidence.

Quote:

Yes thats all good and fun but if a theory falls apart at the beginning then it really isnt much of a theory.




Nope, that is not how theories work.  All theories have bounds, none are purported to apply to all phenomenon, everywhere at every time.  You wouldn't use cell theory to describe plate tectonics, you wouldn't use atomic theory to describe population dynamics and you wouldn't use the theory of evolution by natural selection to describe the solar wind.  By the same token you would not use quantum theory to describe phenomenon before the first plank interval.  All theories have bounds and acknowledging them is a strength of science, not a weakness.  Investigating where the bounds specifically are and what modifications or new theories are needed to cross those bounds is what scientists do.



dude I'm starting to really like you :heart: nohomo

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