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OfflineRoseM
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If honey water looks good, is it? *Pictures Posted*
    #1961871 - 09/29/03 05:36 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...&PHPSESSID=

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...&PHPSESSID=

I know someone who recently inoculated some honey water. He thinks it may be contaminated because he used a very old, dry sample and soaked it in h2o2 (...this should've killed any spores).

Everything looks good... but common knowledge says, it shouldn't.

Are there any contaminants that can be mistaken for mycelia in honey water?

Check the links if you want more info on this project.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: If honey water looks good, is it? [Re: Rose]
    #1962594 - 09/29/03 01:59 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I read the links and i think the most probable answer is contamination. Here are some facts you should know.
1- Dry samples cannot be cloned, it's dead matter, period.
2- h2o2 kills most contaminants, not all of them. You also have to consider for how long the sample is treated with h2o2, timings are very important.
3- Some contaminants growing in such liquid medium, might resemble mycelium.
4- A liquid growing medium contaminates much easier, transfer or inoculation procedures must be followed strictly.

If spores germinate, what makes you think they are cubensis spores ? Why not contaminant spores ?

MAIA


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: If honey water looks good, is it? [Re: MAIA]
    #1963001 - 09/29/03 04:35 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

There are a few things that make me think it is mycelium. Mainly these: it looks right and it smells right.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and smells like a duck... it is a duck.

To answer MAIA's points by number (thanks for reading all the links)

1. That is my understanding.
2. The sample soaked in h2o2, in a glove box, in the dark for 1 hour. There were a lot of bubbles when the sample was added. Perhaps some spores survived in the oxygen bubbles?
3. Which contaminants are those? This is why I posted this thread. I'd like to know what contaminants can be mistaken for mushroom mycelia in honey water.
4. If anything, using h2o2 from the start made the inoculation more sterile (even though it probably killed all spores).

and

*If spores germinate, what makes you think they are cubensis spores ? Why not contaminant spores ?

Simple. I haven't heard of a specific contaminant that could be mistaken for cubensis mycelia (except cobweb; with its trademark black spots). I'm sure the sample had many more cubensis spores than contaminant spores. If spores were to survive the h2o2, I'd put money on cubensis spores since they were omnipotent in the sample. Still, I'm not entirely sure spores germinated the honey water.

I think it is possible some mycelium survived. If a mushroom is freeze dried, could the mycelia go into hybernation? This sample was dried VERY well (never seen mushies dried so well). If the mycelium was hybernating, could h2o2 rehydrate it?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: If honey water looks good, is it? [Re: Rose]
    #1963719 - 09/29/03 08:39 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

> I haven't heard of a specific contaminant that could be mistaken for cubensis mycelia

There are plenty that can easily be confused with cubensis. Growing on agar helps take out a lot of the guessword. When you have jar of liquid with "white stuff" floating around in it, it is very difficult to tell what the "white stuff" is. Many colored contaminates only gain their color from mature spores.

> If a mushroom is freeze dried, could the mycelia go into hybernation?

I don't know. I would suspect not, but what I suspect and actual reality are often different. There are some animals and insects that can survive being frozen in ice. There are some others that can live through droughts encased in dry mud, but they 'come back to life' when it rains and they rehydrate. Life likes to live. The mushroom uses the spore for this purpose. It seems to me unlikely that an organism would develop two independent modes of survival for adverse conditions... again, all opinion.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: If honey water looks good, is it? [Re: Seuss]
    #1963744 - 09/29/03 08:46 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for the help. I guess my friend will have to grow it and see what happens.

Wish him luck.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: If honey water looks good, is it? [Re: Rose]
    #1986950 - 10/07/03 03:45 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

OK an update. Over a week has passed and the jars look the same. Whatever is growing in the jars is white.

Anything other than mycelia would have shown itself by now right?

Don is going to put the jar in the fridge and wait for results from his new syringe.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: If honey water looks good, is it? [Re: Rose]
    #1989329 - 10/08/03 07:21 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Other color than white is a sign of contamination but there are contaminants that are just invisible to the naked eye.
Any strange smell ?

MAIA


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: If honey water looks good, is it? [Re: MAIA]
    #1990048 - 10/08/03 02:48 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Nope. Last week, when the syringe was made, there was just a subtle, sweet smell coming from the jar.

He left the jar at room temp for another week because he was told contaminants show themselves when given enough time. Nothing changed.

Then, he put the jar in the fridge.

Don is colonizing b+ in his incubator right now. Once he has room in his incubator(5-10 days), he will knock up a bag with the honey water.

I've been asking around for weeks and nobody can give me evidence of a contam that looks and smells like myc.

Everything about this experiment has been wrong, except the jar itself. Don Quixote used dead mycelia and should have killed all the spores with h2o2.

Mushie mycelia was the last thing he thought he's grow (once he learned of all his mistakes). Perhaps shrooms grow best with good intentions.

I'll keep you guys updated on Don's work. Thanks for your help and patience. I'll probably be posting future posts to my grow log: "Water Logged or The Adventures of Don Quixote"

Pictures should come soon too. I will be able to get photos of the dry sample Don used, the honey jar and the mycobag itself.

In spite of everything I know, my heart thinks this is a good jar of honey water.

I can't wait to see what happens.

It would mean a lot to us to get a few prints from this old sample.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: If honey water looks good, is it? [Re: Rose]
    #1990185 - 10/08/03 03:30 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

> and should have killed all the spores with h2o2

Spores are very strong and probably survived the h2o2 soak. My guess is that you got growth from spores rather than from the dry mycelium. Either way, you got something and that is what is important.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: If honey water looks good, is it? [Re: Seuss]
    #1990307 - 10/08/03 04:08 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I'm begining to lean the same way Seuss.

There was so much fizzing when Don put the sample in the H2O2, I think a few spores may have survived in a bubble or something. Perhaps they converted the h202 to water and rehydrated in a small pocket of this water.

We'll see what grows...

Success or not, I'll keep in touch.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: If honey water looks good, is it? [Re: Rose]
    #1998184 - 10/10/03 07:08 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Don Quixote just inoculated a mycobag with his honey water.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: If honey water looks good, is it? [Re: Rose]
    #1998243 - 10/10/03 07:32 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Check the grow log for further info.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...&PHPSESSID=

I won't post here again unless more contams are suspected of found.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: If honey water looks good, is it? [Re: Rose]
    #2031491 - 10/22/03 04:56 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...&PHPSESSID=

Here's the link to the grow log again. It now contains pictures. I'd love to get some feedback from the contamination forum, now that Don has sent me photographs of his honeywater.

Thanks.


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Re: If honey water looks good, is it? [Re: Rose]
    #2031586 - 10/22/03 06:15 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Looking at those pictures i would have tossed the jars and
called it due to bacterial contamination, it seems to
clumpy and not strandy enougth to be to be mycelial growth.

But I'd be interessted in what others think


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: If honey water looks good, is it? [Re: Paid]
    #2031631 - 10/22/03 07:13 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Now that it is fully grown, I'm begining to agree with you, except for the lack of detectable odor. Doesn't bacteria smell? It is getting very clumpy now. But I thought bacteria clouded the water when agitated.

Don doesn't know how rizo a 2 year old H2O2 soaked sample should be. If this is mycelia, Don expects high odds of mutation or no fruit at all.

Perhaps he'll have to get some agar.

Thanks for your input Paid. I'm sure Don'll still want to see what happens with the bag but your observations have been taken to heart.

I too, can't wait to hear more feedback.


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Edited by Rose (10/22/03 07:51 AM)


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: If honey water looks good, is it? [Re: Rose]
    #2033611 - 10/22/03 08:44 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with paid, it looks like bacterial contamination.

MAIA


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: If honey water looks good, is it? [Re: MAIA]
    #2033624 - 10/22/03 08:47 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Too bad Don didn't have his camera until after he knocked the bag up with the syringe.

Thank you for your input.

I'll have him check the jar again for odors now that it has matured.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: If honey water looks good, is it? [Re: Rose]
    #2034208 - 10/22/03 11:46 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I was blindfolded and taken to Don Quixote's top secret location. There I smelled his jar again. It doesn't smell as sweet as it did before in fact, it smelled mildly of stagnant H2O2.

I practically stuck my nose inside the jar before I could detect any odor at all. Possibly contaminating the jar in the process... oh well, I have the syringe... and it is probably a dud.

Doesn't bacteria stink? Would any contam be this hard to smell? Don and I have seen many contaminants and they have never looked or smelled like this.

I'm going to move my pictures of the jar into this thread and I'm gonna post some better ones when I get another 400kb.









These pics are the same ones as you'll find in the grow log so no need to go there if you don't feel like it.

Thanks everybody for your help.


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Edited by Rose (10/23/03 12:03 AM)


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: If honey water looks good, is it? [Re: Rose]
    #2057144 - 10/30/03 02:59 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

It was contaminated... the culture bacame orange/rust colored once introduced to the substrate.

Thank you all for your help... and great eyes.

It is amazing how much this jar looked like mycelia until it bagan to mature.


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