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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup


Registered: 05/27/07
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MarkostheGnostic said: Jehovah and Yeshua are the same person.
Uh, no. In fact, phenomenologically speaking, YHVH and the Father of the NT don't even look related! Hence the Gnostic Demiurge idea. But Yeshua (Joshua, Iesous, Isa) was a man for whom the author John was 'God clothed with flesh,' in a Hellenistic, demigod kind of way. For Mark, and Matthew and Luke who borrowed from Mark, thought of Jesus as 'a man anointed by God.' HUGE difference in Reality here. The Talmud says that Jesus was a magician (and a mamser [bastard]), the Qur'an says that Jesus was a prophet, certain Hindus think Jesus was an avatar, and some Buddhists see Jesus as a Bodhisattva. Meanwhile, some Gnostic thinkers like Tim Freke and Peter Gandy (along with theologian-physician Albert Schweitzer) think Jesus was never a single historical man but a literary composite of different wisdom teachers.
Yeshua used to ask his disciples who sent him, no one decided to send Yeshua, because no one is higher than Yeshua.
Your dusty manuscripts say things, Sentient Beings suppose things but only God Knows directly.
Why was Yeshua crucified? It was part of the transmutation process of Original Sin. Original Sin was literally the by-product of giving Total Free Will to each Sentient Being individually.
You see, Sentient Beings have Self and therefore Self-Interest. When Self-Interest is acted upon at the expense of Others the result is a Sin.
Yeshua was called Sinless and Blameless because he was incapable of Sin. Yeshua had no Self-Interest because he had no Self.
No Self-Interest means incapable of Sin actually.
Yeshua was never created, thus Yeshua and YHVH (Tetragramatron) are literally the same Being.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Virginity [Re: Mr.Al] 2
#19757877 - 03/27/14 10:14 PM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Your logic is based on myth misunderstood, and therefore flawed. John's myth equated Y'shua with God. Y'shua is a man, all men are mortal, therefore Y'shua is not God.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup


Registered: 05/27/07
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: Your logic is based on myth misunderstood, and therefore flawed. John's myth equated Y'shua with God. Y'shua is a man, all men are mortal, therefore Y'shua is not God.
Yeshua came back from the dead and raised the dead, that is not what others do.
Yeshua is the Word of God Literally.
Some folks aren't really Christian...
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Re: Virginity [Re: Mr.Al]
#19771099 - 03/30/14 10:29 PM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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i read Genesis yesterday, blazing and listening to some real Indian vibes... and (lo) there was a lot of going unto in chicks, i must say.
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup


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akira_akuma said: i read Genesis yesterday, blazing and listening to some real Indian vibes... and (lo) there was a lot of going unto in chicks, i must say.
In the Ancient Days, the women wanted to hear what you thought about Proverbs and may even ask you about your personal Parables and what they mean before you even have a cup of tea. They only wanted to share sexuality with someone that they would love all their life and even into the afterlife.
Nowadays they speak of flings and hooking up, utterly disgraceful meaningless behavioral patterns.
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Re: Virginity [Re: Mr.Al]
#19771153 - 03/30/14 10:38 PM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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yeah, people were pretty retardedly polite, save a bit of the political customs that people still to this day have resorted to. then it all kinda made sense though... people knew well as much. doesn't apply here though.
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup


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Quote:
akira_akuma said: yeah, people were pretty retardedly polite, save a bit of the political customs that people still to this day have resorted to. then it all kinda made sense though... people knew well as much. doesn't apply here though.
There were certain forms of Enlightened Ritual and Etiquette that permeated the human civilization.
Languages of hand gestures, Beings politely introducing with gestures that bespoke who they are, their responsibilities and their current Enlightened Attainment Statuses.
Men and Women did not treat each other as objects in the Enlightened part of civilization. Now, some of the real screwed up individuals had lower morality than animals.
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Re: Virginity [Re: Mr.Al]
#19771204 - 03/30/14 10:48 PM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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all in balance. after all, things are always going to require further inference to produce finer results in all trials for themselves, and all human endeavors are congruent in those things, so it shall have to be done; there will be problems but then there are solutions to those problems, and then there is a further consequence of facing one problem introducing more then having to face those ones as we are always on the move towards new things, (and yet somethings never die)
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: Virginity [Re: Mr.Al]
#19773509 - 03/31/14 02:53 PM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
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akira_akuma said: i read Genesis yesterday, blazing and listening to some real Indian vibes... and (lo) there was a lot of going unto in chicks, i must say.
In the Ancient Days, the women wanted to hear what you thought about Proverbs and may even ask you about your personal Parables and what they mean before you even have a cup of tea. They only wanted to share sexuality with someone that they would love all their life and even into the afterlife.
Nowadays they speak of flings and hooking up, utterly disgraceful meaningless behavioral patterns.
Yeah, sex with anyone is utterly meaningless and disgraceful unless you plan on spending your entire life madly in love with them.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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now, with the advent of the modern ages. duh.
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup


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If they each focus on themselves then their love is shallow. So if it is only about carnal enjoyment then there is no love and the sex is merely entertainment instead of the physical expression of love.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Virginity [Re: Mr.Al]
#19785741 - 04/02/14 07:30 PM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
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MarkostheGnostic said: Your logic is based on myth misunderstood, and therefore flawed. John's myth equated Y'shua with God. Y'shua is a man, all men are mortal, therefore Y'shua is not God.
Yeshua came back from the dead and raised the dead, that is not what others do.
Yeshua is the Word of God Literally.
Some folks aren't really Christian...
That is the crux of the Christian myth. Resurrection is not physical resuscitation. Resurrection is a spiritual event, as Paul understood it. Only the later 'public relations' advertising documents called the gospels portrayed the event as a tangible, historical resuscitation. That is midrash and myth, pure and simple. All religions are portrayed with some degree of myth, even the realizations of a young, yet-to-be-enlightened Siddhartha Gautama. Christian doesn't necessarily mean concrete-thinking, puerile, or gullible.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
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Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: Your logic is based on myth misunderstood, and therefore flawed. John's myth equated Y'shua with God. Y'shua is a man, all men are mortal, therefore Y'shua is not God.
Yeshua came back from the dead and raised the dead, that is not what others do.
Yeshua is the Word of God Literally.
Some folks aren't really Christian...
That is the crux of the Christian myth. Resurrection is not physical resuscitation. Resurrection is a spiritual event, as Paul understood it. Only the later 'public relations' advertising documents called the gospels portrayed the event as a tangible, historical resuscitation. That is midrash and myth, pure and simple. All religions are portrayed with some degree of myth, even the realizations of a young, yet-to-be-enlightened Siddhartha Gautama. Christian doesn't necessarily mean concrete-thinking, puerile, or gullible.
Are you certain? I easily imagine that an urban legend of a holy man who was crucified and resurrected from the dead spreading about like wildfire to the credulous by word of mouth before the gospels were ever penned.... It just seems to fit in with the madness and hysteria of life in that era... Maybe more sane people tried to balance the urban legend out by likening the myth to psychological rejuvenation...
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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all of it. it's all poetry and myth and in Biblical terms, survival; things that have been in oration since we could speak-- let alone without a signified language-- and could tell stories to one another, and i would guess sing and dance together when they could afford to and pay homage to the Gods. which may or may not have been even signified in any meaningful way, to our nods to life.
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head



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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
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circastes said: I look very Jewish sometimes when I grin, I have my suspicions. Definitely something non-Caucasian wandered into the mix at some stage in my family tree.
Looking Jewish does not mean non-Caucasian (from Caucasus region) since Caucasian means 'white or European.' My parents were culturally Jewish, and 3/4 of my grandparents came from Romanian (and probably, but denied), Germany. Eastern European peasant stock has resulted in non-Semitic 'Jewish looks' in the US an elsewhere.
Ah okay.
Not that I would mind too much though. Half my heritage is Eastern Europe so yeah.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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MarkostheGnostic
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The elite thinkers had heard it all before through many of the religions of antiquity. Mithraism was huge among the Roman soldiers. They had their stages of attainment, communion with bread and wine. The Egyptian religion of Osiris and Isis lived on. Osiris, god of resurrection, hybridized with Orpheus, with Dionysus. People must have heard it all before, and with nothing new in the cinema or on TV, they must have been absolutely nuts about a new mythos. Many Gnostics have interpreted Paul in a way that indicates their whole inner-directed understanding. Paul never spoke to a resuscitated Jesus, he spoke exclusively about the resurrected Christ, yet Paul too misunderstood the End Times (he was wrong about the immanent end of the world and the descent of the New Jerusalem). Paul spoke to us in his letters about his spiritual experiences. They were windows into other types of existence, so I'm not saying that he was only referring to psychological states that would perish with us in death. But Paul never could get the notion that John's Gospel suggested to Gnostics in his "I AM" sayings, namely, that they apply to you and me as well as Jesus. What we are at bottom is God. There, I said it.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


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Okay, but I'm not convinced that it originates top down from 'Elite Thinkers' who grokked Eternal Consciousness, from which their sayings were then perverted to concrete way of thinking w/ urban legends by pedestrian recipients...
I mean, you've taken LSD, did you need to be jonesing for a new movie to sum it all up for you while soaring on 500ug of LSD? Are they works of art that the masses interpret as superficial, pretty songs, yet don't know what they mean... so they shoot their guns off about 'em....? Maybe...
I envision the ecstatic types living in hyperspace, re-orchestrating the myths of the masses to higher pursuits by drawing parallels between their mundane myths and ecstatic states of consciousness.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


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ever wonder if preserved texts even remotely represent the best of literature from the era? could just be the equivalent of the new york time's best seller's list i mean, they heard it all before... and they're nuts over it? wouldn't it seem trite to an elite thinker? all the brilliant indies of antiquity could be lost in the sauce.....
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
Edited by CosmicJoke (04/04/14 05:25 AM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Quote:
CosmicJoke said: Okay, but I'm not convinced that it originates top down from 'Elite Thinkers' who grokked Eternal Consciousness, from which their sayings were then perverted to concrete way of thinking w/ urban legends by pedestrian recipients...
I mean, you've taken LSD, did you need to be jonesing for a new movie to sum it all up for you while soaring on 500ug of LSD? Are they works of art that the masses interpret as superficial, pretty songs, yet don't know what they mean... so they shoot their guns off about 'em....? Maybe...
I envision the ecstatic types living in hyperspace, re-orchestrating the myths of the masses to higher pursuits by drawing parallels between their mundane myths and ecstatic states of consciousness.
I can't help but agree with the thesis of Rev. John Shelby Spong, especially as elaborated in Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes. The New Testament WAS about a group of people's experiences with one Iesous of Nazareth, but the gospels themselves were written in order to fulfill the prophesies of the Tenach, and the Synoptics (Matthew and Luke based on Mark, Mark based on the 'Q' Source), adhered closely to the Jewish liturgical calendar. I learned a whole new dimension from Rev. Spong
As to ecstatic, the only biblical description of such a thing is in Luke's Acts 2:3, where the apostles 'receive' the Holy Spirit, or the "cloven tongues of fire" which sit upon their heads seem a reference to the 'Serpent Power,' inasmuch as the serpent (and some other reptiles) have a 'cloven' or forked tongue, and flames are often described as 'licking,' or as 'tongues of flame,' but nowhere else have I seen "cloven," but I greatly digress. Witnesses think the apostles are drunk in Acts, but it's 9:00 in the morning. Some are speaking in 'tongues,' or glossolalia, as "the Spirit gave them utterance" - Acts 2:4. So this kind of experience would be "Elite," spiritually speaking, but these peasants who were experiencing it were not "'Elite Thinkers'" by any stretch. The Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria, whose writings on the Logos (Word), were adopted by the author of John's gospel, now HE was an "Elite Thinker!" And we DO have his writings. Philo lived contemporaneously with Iesous, from whom there are no writings, and scant evidence, even just a one-liner from the Roman Jewish historian Flavius Josephus.
Then, my mind was further blown by D.M. Murdock's book Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection, which documents a major portion of the New Testament stories of Iesous' hearings and miracles being lifted almost verbatim from the Egyptian Pyramid texts and Coffin Texts. I do not think that faith is supposed to be rooted in historical events, but in metaphysical premises. I further think that Christians, who end up (as I once did) taking the tack that 'other' religions are merely mythic, whereas Christianity is myth-enacted-in-history, are ultimately subtle materialists. Iesous, when I was young and Christ was novel, really was God's 'son,' because (1) I didn't grok that all the kings of Israel were 'sons of God' by virtue of the divine right of kingship, and followers thought Iesous was the promised Messiah, hence the king of the Jews (facetiously nailed to his cross, "Iesus Nazarenus, Rex Iudaeorum"), was a 'son of God' in THAT sense.
(2) I was brainwashed with the anthropomorphic language in which God was a 'Father,' who, through miraculous agency, impregnated a mortal female, Miriam/Mary, who bore a divine Son. At the time, I wasn't reading this as Greek mythology, which it surely is, and why I now sympathize with the Jews who were not having it. Isis-Mari was herself symbolized by a dove, as was Aprodite, goddess of love. Mary's conception by the 'Word' has been represented in art as a dove speaking into her ear, by which means she conceived. Greek mythic deities, the Supreme God Zeus included, frequently did this same thing in classic Hellenistic literature. The Jews knew this, and again, they had their own myths, and moreover, a long history of prophets. God was Spirit, and the later theology originated by John made Iesous out to be 'God clothed with flesh,' instead of the more primitive original Synoptic notion that Iesous was 'a man anointed by God.' Jews could handle a prophet, but not God Incarnate. Worshipping God in any form, including man, or a demigod, was anathema to Jews, but not to Greeks and Romans. But it was Akhentaten all over again. Now only ONE man could be worshipped AS God. The doctrine of the Trinity was archetypal chicanery. Iesous would not have approved.
Mainstream Christians think I'm deluded, but I think that mainstream Christians are comfortably deluded in The Matrix of their exoteric myths, while like the mythic Neo, I have been awakened from The Matrix. I am convinced that I have struggled a lot more with these things than virtually every Christian I have met, and all of this struggle, between faith and reason has finally been reconciled by my current position. Faith transcends the opposites of myth-history, mind-matter. And as we learned in The Matrix, Neo's faith in himself grew by leaps and bounds - literally. But more important than faith in the films, as in the New Testament, was love. "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing" - 1 Corinthians 13:2. Instead of new wine in old wineskins bursting the vessels, I have found that old wine (scriptures) in new wineskins (The Matrix films has been enlivening. In the Age of Aquarius, new myths will be needed. The ages of Aries (the Ram), Taurus (The Bull), and Pisces (The Fish) - to wit, the Egyptian, the Hebrew, and the Christian eras have come and gone.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
I can't help but agree with the thesis of Rev. John Shelby Spong, especially as elaborated in Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes. The New Testament WAS about a group of people's experiences with one Iesous of Nazareth, but the gospels themselves were written in order to fulfill the prophesies of the Tenach, and the Synoptics (Matthew and Luke based on Mark, Mark based on the 'Q' Source), adhered closely to the Jewish liturgical calendar. I learned a whole new dimension from Rev. Spong
This was precisely my coursework in undergrad philosophy 14 years ago, we compared the differences between each gospel to get a picture of each author's respective motives...I don't precisely understand why you're attributing all this knowledge to Spong. From day one we learned that clearly the Gospels were not written by the apostles of Jesus, we got a reasonable idea of a timeline when each was written, and began digging into the various political motives, the audiences each were being written for, etc. Even pbs seems to take a stab at explaining it, they take a couple minutes each to read, is a decent refresher imho.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/mark.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/matthew.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/luke.html
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
Edited by CosmicJoke (04/04/14 06:51 PM)
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