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InvisibleSclorch
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Lengthened Subjective Time
    #1961548 - 09/29/03 01:28 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Spokesman: If a dream that seems 2 hours long only occurs in the brain for actually 2 secounds

First of all, we must acknowledge that there are alot of assumptions we make when we speak of subjective experiences in objective terms, for better or worse. This phenomenon is mentioned every now and then, so I thought I'd throw out some questions.  Also, the discussion is not about the existence of the phenomenon, as this phenomenon DOES occur in various forms (and, yes, we're ignoring solipsism for now... so fuck off :wink:).

This phenomenon is somewhat similar to time dilation, except that neither observer moves all that much.  I don't know what to call it, maybe LST (Lengthened Subjective Time?)... whatever.  To understand how the subjective experience of LST occurs in the brain, it would help to know exactly how the brain works.  Well, that doesn't help us as there is no complete model of the brain's processes.  So we ponder...

Since LST is said to occur commonly in dreams and OOBEs (electrically induced or other), a comparison between these altered states  and the "normal" state might be helpful.  CAT scans, PET scans, MRIs, etc. would provide a good amount of information on the objective differences in brain states.  It's safe to assume that the brain functions quite differently from state to state (not geo-political state, duh).

Where am I going with this...

How can we be sure that the brain is working any faster than normal during an LST experience?
Could it not just be tricking itself into thinking it had been away for a longer time period?
Maybe it just skipped a few steps.
Was the experience full of as many details as a non-LST brain state?
Could the brain trick itself by thinking in shortcuts (archetypes?) rather than the "normal" thought process?

Lots of questions, possibilities, ideas... and no complete model of the brain. 


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Lengthened Subjective Time [Re: Sclorch]
    #1961555 - 09/29/03 01:33 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The truth lies in the fact that time is subjective, and relative, and non-linear.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Lengthened Subjective Time [Re: Shroomism]
    #1961609 - 09/29/03 02:01 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Where DO you get these vacuous yet recondite phrases?
Is there an online database?


When the cat's away...


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: Lengthened Subjective Time [Re: Sclorch]
    #1961736 - 09/29/03 03:39 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

i think that when you are conscious, you actually think much slower than you need to. when you think of words, you hear the words. when you think of sentences you think word, word, word, word, etc. that is so your conscious mind can relate to your surroundings, what you are thinking. when i was very young, i used to studder when i spoke. i remember that the words were coming so fast that my mouth couldnt keep up, so i would just get frustrated. i had to keep thinking,slow down slow down. even though that phase passed when i was 8, i think it gave me a perspective on how the brain works.

the speed at which your brain can process is astounding. when you sleep, your brain doesnt have to run everything through a "slow filter", because it doesnt have to relate any of the information to your surroundings. you perceive this as a "time dialation", but in actuallity it is just you noticing the speed at which your brain wants to process.

this is just my first thoughts. i really have no idea what i am talking about. :wink: 


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: Lengthened Subjective Time [Re: Sclorch]
    #1961775 - 09/29/03 04:25 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I think a lot of these experiences are created as they're being remembered.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Lengthened Subjective Time [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1962000 - 09/29/03 07:09 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Our minds can perceive the "passage" of time anyway that they wish. Our minds can be programmed towards any end. Fuck, if I so desired, I could make it so that my mind continously counts "and a one, and a two, and a three, and a four", and then repeats that for the rest of my life.

I can also make it so that time drags on, so to speak.. ever been in school? Time usually does not fly, but yet, doing something fun.. time flys by.

And so on and so forth.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Lengthened Subjective Time [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1962582 - 09/29/03 01:53 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

automan: when you think of words, you hear the words. when you think of sentences you think word, word, word, word, etc.

Yeah, and maybe during LST the mind thinks in archetype, archetype, archetype, etc.

infidelGOD: I think a lot of these experiences are created as they're being remembered.

You definitely can't rule this possibility out. Maybe the brain thinks sort of like a line drawing and then colors it in afterwards (when you're "remembering").


--------------------
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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Lengthened Subjective Time [Re: Sclorch]
    #1962606 - 09/29/03 02:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Has anybody else had LST outside of a dream? I was in a car wreck, as the passanger, and as the wreck occured everything went slow motion. I must have had ten minutes of thoughts go through my head in about 1/4 of a second. I was even aware that things were going super slow, but was unable to change the course of events that were taking place.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Lengthened Subjective Time [Re: Seuss]
    #1964000 - 09/29/03 10:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah... I've had them happen in several different scenarios.

dreaming
day dreaming
car wrecks
during a fight
on drugs


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: Lengthened Subjective Time [Re: Sclorch]
    #1964133 - 09/29/03 10:58 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

me too. i was in a car wreck where everything slowed down. i could perceive every little thing that happens. same thing happens when i fall down.
like i was saying before, when a car wreck happens, it is pure reaction time. you dont think in terms of relating something to your environment, only reacting from it.


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: Lengthened Subjective Time [Re: Sclorch]
    #1964185 - 09/29/03 11:15 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

adrenalin? perhaps fight or flight mechinisms? your mind reacts instead of responds...i think its a survival tactic...


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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Offlinewrine420
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Re: Lengthened Subjective Time [Re: CleverName]
    #1964245 - 09/29/03 11:41 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

well im new to these forums but ill post my thoughts anyway.

i think that concious is just a rationalization of perception. think of it this way though: we are all taught rules to think by. we are taught the rules of time, math, and society. but our minds aren't inherintely used to this. we are free thinking creatures. society and normal concious restricts ours minds to these rules. but like any chains, we need to break free. in sleep, our minds break free of time, math, and society. thats why 2 seconds seem like 2 hours. thats why its impossible to correctly solve problems in dreams, and that's also why we do stuff out of the norm in dreams (walk around naked at school, have sex all over the place with people around)

i think this is how our brains stay balanced. i dont't know about you, but i am always more creative when i have alot of stress (which are really social rules in themselves). i've always felt that creativeness is like an outlet for our souls.



i dont know, it was just something i was thinking of


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Lengthened Subjective Time [Re: wrine420]
    #1966226 - 09/30/03 03:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

wrine420: i dont't know about you, but i am always more creative when i have alot of stress

Ditto.
I'm not really a procrastinator... I just work best under pressure. In school, I'd prefer to turn in a great project late rather than an acceptable project on time or early.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: Lengthened Subjective Time [Re: Sclorch]
    #1968063 - 10/01/03 01:04 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
The truth lies in the fact that time is subjective, and relative, and non-linear.



Quote:

Sclorch replied:
Where DO you get these vacuous yet recondite phrases?




Sclorch, Shroomism's elucidation of the characteristics of time are neither vacuous nor recondite (please don't make me look up any more 10 cent words again).

Time can be said to be a measurement or a perception of relative motion. I have yet to find a better definition. Without motion, time cannot be perceived or measured. Our perception of time is influenced by the intensity of our attention to a series of events. When we are focused on a particular situation, the events that comprise that situation take on a greater perceptive (relative) importance. In other words, time 'slows' as/because we are focused on the unfolding of a particular sequence of events. In such situations, we do not notice or barely notice events that are not important during the period - extraneous events will appear to have passed almost immediately (though an objective measurement would reveal that they may have taken just as long or longer than the events we were focusing on).

Disclaimer: The preceding is an opinion based upon my personal experiences and understanding, I reserve the right to change it should better explanations or new experiences prompt a re-evaluation.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Lengthened Subjective Time [Re: Autonomous]
    #1968615 - 10/01/03 04:25 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The truth lies in the fact that time is subjective, and relative, and non-linear.
Sclorch, Shroomism's elucidation of the characteristics of time are neither vacuous nor recondite (please don't make me look up any more 10 cent words again).

Prove to me that time is subjective, relative, and non-linear.
Then have Shroomism explain what he thinks he means by such vague drivel.
Then come back and show me how I choose my words poorly.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Lengthened Subjective Time [Re: Sclorch]
    #1968866 - 10/01/03 09:28 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

> Prove to me that time is subjective, relative, and non-linear.

Sit on a hot stove for five seconds and it feels like an hour,
Sit with a hot woman for an hour and it feels like five seconds,
That's relativity.  :grin:

(From the back of one of my SPS shirts...)



--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineDoTheTrain
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Re: Lengthened Subjective Time [Re: Seuss]
    #1969454 - 10/01/03 02:47 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Time being relative is definitely not in question. As we speed up and approach the speed of light, atoms move slower and time slows down . There have been actual scientific studies proving that as a vessel approaches the speed of light, time gets slower. I believe they used a concord jet and two very accurate, synchronized clocks.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Lengthened Subjective Time [Re: Seuss]
    #1969458 - 10/01/03 02:48 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

No... that's just a PERCEIVED relativity.
And you didn't address the "non-linear" gimmick.
Nor did you prove to me how you have anything but subjective evidence of the subjectivity of time... maybe you're just unable to percieve the objectivity of spacetime.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Lengthened Subjective Time [Re: DoTheTrain]
    #1969471 - 10/01/03 02:52 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Time being relative is definitely not in question.

No, there are still doubts. We don't know FOR SURE how gravity affects spacetime (your example of time dilation is merely evidence).

Everything is most definitely subject to more questions.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineSpokesman
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Re: Lengthened Subjective Time [Re: Sclorch]
    #1969568 - 10/01/03 03:21 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

To tell you the truth the concept of time is very weird to me because it seems that we only percive time at the speed that we want to remember it. Like look at the secound that just passed, you only remember that second being fast because thats your perception of a secound. Whos to say that time for a fast-moving microscopic organism is the same as time for us. Or that time for us is the same as time for a slow-moving elephant. Anyone getting my point or do i need to smoke a joint before explaining this?


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