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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
Scratcher's question
    #1959842 - 09/28/03 04:12 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

In a recent thread started by Rono ("Bush to ask UN to help support postwar Iraq..."), Scratcher and I got into a discussion. In his last post in the thread, he has this to say --

Quote:

IMO, here lies the problem though; the US goverment believes it is following the only path possible, there are no alternatives. I disagree. I believe that there is a path to US prosperity and security that does not involve violence and war and corporate greed. But aren't these things as American as it gets? Of course they are, America wrote the book on them. So in asking the US government to choose a peaceful path is, well, unAmerican. A peaceful planet is not realistic by any stretch of the imagination and I know this. I have almost come to accept it but I must tell you, it is not easy. I believe the future for our children and grandchildren is not a bright one. Because where does all of this thirst for money and power end? Seriously, what is the final outcome? Are we going to suddenly wake up one day in the future with a hellbent desire for LESS money and power? Sounds ridiculous doesn't it; wanting less. So again I ask you: where does it end? I would love to hear your opinion on this.




So I gave my opinion, figuring others would as well. So far, no one else has, and it looks like that thread has played out.

So...

How would you answer Scratcher's question?

pinky


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Offlinerecalcitrant
My Own God

Registered: 04/20/02
Posts: 2,927
Loc: Canada West
Last seen: 9 months, 9 days
Re: Scratcher's question [Re: Phred]
    #1960045 - 09/28/03 05:34 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I think it doesn't have to end Scratcher. Globalization will force international law, the US will either have to step into line with international agreements like Kyoto, or the world is going to say "Yo, US, quit cheating!" A peaceful planet IS possible. (although maybe not b4 war, as some say "it gets worse b4 it gets better)

I think the real problem will be, if we want to survive as a race, we need to figure out a way to start gathering resources and survivng outside of our solar system before the sun goes nova. Problems like these are far enuf away, tho, that we can set them aside for now and concentrate on the present problems.

Utopia inst going to work, duh, becuase ppl dont play by the rules. The US has a history of not "playing by the rules for everyones betterment" because they have to sacrifice their "freedoms." THe freedom to own a gun, the freedom to pollute, the freedom to invade other countries (e.g. Iraq)

"Wanting less" sounds very communist. I think thats why communism hasn't really worked in our history. People don't want less, they want more. Russians could see the standard of living in the adjacent capitalist countries rise all the time. They were prideful, they were covetous, and they were greedy. Just like everyone always is. SO they couldn't have been happy to accept a standard of living that was simply sufficient. They only contemporary country i can think of that has a chance at being happy to live communist (and simply) is China. Their populace, outside of the major cities) has been living the same way for thousands of years. Alot of the small towns haven't changed much since the beggining of history.

( i htink thats why there was such a public outcry against that super-damn that fucked all those villages on the Yangzee. It isn't very communist to destroy a bunch of towns that have stood for thousands of years to supply the growing cities with futuristic and expansive infrastructure. but thats why China's communism is working, because the ruling body is no longer the Old Men of Mao's time who were running a "communist" state as a venir for tyrany, like stalin. The rulers of communist china are idealistic young men who really want to make communism work. They understand the sins of man interfere with the Perfect Utopian State and are allowing elements of right {or at least the compromises between left and right i.e. the market system) that make their quasi-communist state function.


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Offlinerecalcitrant
My Own God

Registered: 04/20/02
Posts: 2,927
Loc: Canada West
Last seen: 9 months, 9 days
Re: Scratcher's question [Re: recalcitrant]
    #1961696 - 09/29/03 03:08 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

In light of no one giving any more answers I have changed my mind.

It will end when the bomb goes off. :wink:


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Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
Re: Scratcher's question [Re: recalcitrant]
    #1962412 - 09/29/03 12:04 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

no, I think your answer is right on the money, for
the most part.

the continued globalization of american interests
as well as those of foreign countries will continue
the push towards a coherent, enforceable body
of international law.

ironically, the united states' tendency to seek international
criminals and bring them to justice could be setting
a precedent that could quite easily turn right back
around and be used on its politicians and operatives.

(kissinger can barely travel outside the united states
anymore. if he returns to france, he will be detained)

international, multilateral bodies like the UN and the
World Court will gain legitimacy and real power that,
hopefully, will hold the plundering of globalized corporate
piracy in check.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Offlinerecalcitrant
My Own God

Registered: 04/20/02
Posts: 2,927
Loc: Canada West
Last seen: 9 months, 9 days
Re: Scratcher's question [Re: afoaf]
    #1962877 - 09/29/03 03:51 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

i hope so. but with the US trying to get legislation out there saying that their soldiers can't be hauled in front of another nation's (or an international) court for crimes commited outside america, I don't see the world court holding legitimat power to control american behavior.

I do see the rest of the world getting fed up with americans fucking everyone in the ass. How long will an environmentally conscious world let the US dump atomic waste into the sides of mountains?

answer: until the bomb goes off.


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We have to answer our own prayers


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/13/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Scratcher's question [Re: Phred]
    #1963487 - 09/29/03 07:08 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Scratcher, you beautiful wonderful soul :smile:

IMO, here lies the problem though; the US goverment believes it is following the only path possible, there are no alternatives. I disagree. I believe that there is a path to US prosperity and security that does not involve violence and war and corporate greed. But aren't these things as American as it gets?

I dont know,  I think that they are as American Government in the latter 20th and early 21st century as it gets.  I think Americans have a different take on it.

Some studies for you to think about ( taken from various sources)

67% would prefer to have more spending on things like education and health care then Bush's latest tax cut (ABC/Washington Post)

70% if Americans are willing to pay more in taxes if that money went to education -- 84% if that money went specifically to raising teachers salaries, reducing class size, fixing rundown schools and putting computers in classrooms (NBC/WallStreet Journal)

60% of americans say that the US is doing too little to protect the environment from corporate plunderers (only 10 percent think too much is being done. (Gallup)

Two thirds of Americans think that environmental protection should be a priority, even at the risk of curbing economic growth (Gallup)  68% of people polled say that they dont think that the environment and growth have to be at odds. (Wirthlin Worldwide)

67% feel strongly that would country should do whatever it takes to protect the environment.

64% of American say global trade pulls down, rather then pushes up US wages (Market Strategies/Committe for Free Trade)

2/3rd say large corporations are the oens that benefit by trade deals and that workers are hurt by them (Peter Hart)

72% say the white house and congress give too litter considerations to working americans when making global trade policies

So, it seems the people have got it right.  Have you heard of Jon Rawl's "Theory of Justice"? 
Snippet from a site about it:  In "A Theory of Justice", Rawls sets forth the proposition that "Each person possesses an inviolability founded on justice that even the welfare of society as a whole cannot override. Therefore, in a just society the rights secured by justice are not subject to political bargaining or to the calculus of social interests."

What Rawls did was create an excercise where he had his students create a hypothetical society.  Some people said.. well, Ill be royalty in my society.. Ill be the richest.. etc etc.. but Rawls threw in a concept called the "Veil of Ignorance"  in which people, when constructing this society, where not told what their place was in it.  You dont know what color skin you have, what religion.. etc.  He found that given these premises people were inherently honest, creating well rounded societies that insured the well being of the poorest most outcast of it's people.  Inherently, when our own interests are taken out of the picture we are more considerate, well rounded individuals.  Infact, that is what our country was originally designed to do.. with it's checks and balances.

Sam Adams said that, "If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of it's experienced patriots to prevent it's ruin."  Such a time has come.  The people in power have too many interests that conflict with those of we the people.

I believe the future for our children and grandchildren is not a bright one. Because where does all of this thirst for money and power end? Seriously, what is the final outcome?
The final outcome is enough people getting pissed off enough that they stop accepting that.  It's when we stand up to the tyrants that are stealing our future and our America and start remember that we arent weak inconsequential people.  We are the same stock that came over here and founded this delicious mess of a country, the same ones who rebelled against another tyrant King (george the III.. now it's george the second, how fitting).  The final outcome is slavery or freedom.  It all depends on what we choose.

Are we going to suddenly wake up one day in the future with a hellbent desire for LESS money and power?
Yes!  People are doing it every day!  Global consciousness is awakening.. get out and talk to the people.. fuck this bulletinboard.  This is an exciting time to be alive, people!  Times, they are a changing like never before.  Look at what just happened at the WTO!  A bunch of hippie kids shut that shit down!  They did it in Seattle too!  They caused corporate bigwigs to cower in their hotel rooms!  I'm cynical about this generation stepping up to the plate... but every day I get more hope.  I see more minds open.  I meet amazing people at gas stations, coffeeshops, bars.. restaurants.  I eavesdrop on people's conversations in the checkout lines and Texas state fair crowds.  And boy oh boy.. this is exciting stuff! 

So dont despair... there is still some hope.  But if people like us dont get out there and off of here.. offa our asses then we are forfeiting our future.  We are enabling the machine.

Stolen from Almost Famous:  "It's all happening, man."




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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
Re: Scratcher's question [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1965329 - 09/30/03 09:54 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
67% would prefer to have more spending on things like education and health care then Bush's latest tax cut (ABC/Washington Post)




Yet alot of these people went shopping with thier money.

Quote:

60% of americans say that the US is doing too little to protect the environment from corporate plunderers (only 10 percent think too much is being done. (Gallup)

Two thirds of Americans think that environmental protection should be a priority, even at the risk of curbing economic growth (Gallup) 68% of people polled say that they dont think that the environment and growth have to be at odds. (Wirthlin Worldwide)





Yet alot of these people consume products that help deteriorate the environment.

Quote:

67% feel strongly that would country should do whatever it takes to protect the environment.





Yet most of these people don't.

Quote:

So, it seems the people have got it right.





I don't know about that.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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