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OfflineMagicMike407
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General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing.
    #19589652 - 02/19/14 12:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Id like to think ive been getting a good education on these boards using the Search, but id like a little clarification/human interaction on this one.
In regards to fruiting conditions, or more specifically factors that contribute to huge pinsets:
I always see "evaporation of moisture off of surface of substrate" as #1 pinning trigger. Now, does this mean that the cake/tray itself is losing moisture, or that moisture from the environment which has collected on the surface evaporates off. Consider these examples.
A) a tray is covered with bubble wrap and placed under light. The tray was not misted prior to this. The substrate gives off moisture, creating a microclimate perfect for pinning between the sub and wrap.
B) a tray is opened, misted lightly, and fanned several minutes later.
Which example best demonstrates the primary pinning trigger?
Because the way I see it, if a tray or cake is placed in an environment with constant 99% rH, how will it ever evaporate moisture? I understand that FAE replaces the air, but ive also read that the goal is still to have constant 90+ rH in conjunction with your FAE.
So can someone help me out here or am I just rambling?

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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: MagicMike407]
    #19589675 - 02/19/14 12:16 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

i'll give this a shot, i think i understand what your saying, the sub is not giving off moisture persay, it's evaporating moisture and the beads of moisture on the surface is the moisture condensating on the surface due to the temp difference from your subs heat it produces, even at 99% rh you can still have great evaporation as long as you got some fae.
when we fan it promotes evaporation to start and replaces the stale humid air to make room for more evaporation to happen, so as long as you got evaporation happening you will constantly have 95-100%(guestimated numbers) humidity on the surface of your substrates regardless of the rh in your chamber, i'm running a whack of tubs/trays w/o any chamber at all


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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: MagicMike407]
    #19589685 - 02/19/14 12:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMike407 said:
this means that the cake/tray itself is losing moisture



:whathesaid:

Constant FAE means constant evaporation.....which means constantly high humidity.

As long as the humidity is not constantly 100%, there is always room for some evaporation to take place.

In a SGFC we fan after we mist the cakes, for a drop in RH.

In a set and forget monotub we tune the polyfill in to allow for constant evaporation off the substrate.

The heat from the substrate should keep moisture/condensation on the surface.

This moisture will constant evaporate off the sub, if the tub is dialed in correctly.

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OfflineMagicMike407
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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: PussyFart]
    #19589733 - 02/19/14 12:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for the quick responses, you guys are the best. I see what you mean how if the sub is losing moisture than the air immediately around it becomes saturated. All promoted by air exchange.
Practically speaking, this is what im going to do.

I want to put my 100% tray in a chamber directly under 6500k light, with no rH adjustment, but a low cfm fan running 10 min per hour. I will place bubble wrap on the tray and hope that the frequent soft FAE will keep the tray happy through pin formation.

Then, when the pinset has developed, remove the wrap and "turn on" my rH system to the chamber to see it through fruiting. Fans keep the cycle too. Sound right?
Im speaking generally because the thing i built is a monstrosity of excess but can hit most any condition if dialed right.

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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: MagicMike407]
    #19589741 - 02/19/14 12:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)


i would skip the bw, i find it can hinder fae/evaportaion unless you really baby it, i fruited that in open air and will always stand by the more fae the better, just mist when the surface dries up


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OfflineMagicMike407
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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: cronicr]
    #19589751 - 02/19/14 12:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

...noted. Wow.

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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: MagicMike407]
    #19589772 - 02/19/14 12:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

since they already hit the nail on the head I'll post this anecdote about the SGFC

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I experimented with every hole size possible before settling on 1/4" (6mm).  Best performance was with 3/8" holes, but you have to mist more.  Since most people are lazy I settled on the 1/4" size because in most cases the terrarium can be handled with a misting or two per day.
RR




I have been using 3/8 holes and it's been :thumbup:

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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: bodhisatta]
    #19589777 - 02/19/14 12:46 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

i'm gonna build another sgfc, i miss them dearly:sad: need to do me a cake grow prtty quick it's been almost a year now


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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: cronicr]
    #19589785 - 02/19/14 12:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

if you buy a step drill(expensive) you don't really have to worry about cracking the plastic or having to ream the holes to make them look nice and it's super easy to increase the size later, I started off 1/4 now it's cranked up to 3/8 and it's working great aside from a few grains of perlite falling out here and there but it's really no big deal.

I would really love to try out a mono just to say I did it but I get too much harvest as is with my SGFC :lol: I have jars of dried shrooms just sitting around. I only grow for the fun of it now so I'm actually trying to go back to cake sized grows and then bigger grows for edibles.

Edited by Trusted cuItivator (02/19/14 12:50 PM)

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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: bodhisatta]
    #19589797 - 02/19/14 12:51 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
if you buy a step drill(expensive) you don't really have to worry about cracking the plastic or having to ream the holes to make them look nice and it's super easy to increase the size later, I started off 1/4 now it's cranked up to 3/8 and it's working great aside from a few grains of perlite falling out here and there but it's really no big deal.

I would really love to try out a mono just to say I did it but I get too much harvest as is with my SGFC :lol: I have jars of dried shrooms just sitting around. I only grow for the fun of it now so I'm actually trying to go back to cake sized grows and then bigger grows for edibles.



Could you not just put some window screen under your perlite to keep it out of the holes?


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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: MudaFuka]
    #19589814 - 02/19/14 12:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MudaFuka said:
Quote:

bodhisatta said:
if you buy a step drill(expensive) you don't really have to worry about cracking the plastic or having to ream the holes to make them look nice and it's super easy to increase the size later, I started off 1/4 now it's cranked up to 3/8 and it's working great aside from a few grains of perlite falling out here and there but it's really no big deal.

I would really love to try out a mono just to say I did it but I get too much harvest as is with my SGFC :lol: I have jars of dried shrooms just sitting around. I only grow for the fun of it now so I'm actually trying to go back to cake sized grows and then bigger grows for edibles.



Could you not just put some window screen under your perlite to keep it out of the holes?



:facepalm:
now why didn't I think of that.

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OfflineMagicMike407
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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: MudaFuka]
    #19589830 - 02/19/14 12:58 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Glad i could provide another noob thread to be hijacked.
Boom first dick comment.
Anyway never tried the SGFC. i guess RR says 3/8 is the way.

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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: MagicMike407]
    #19589840 - 02/19/14 01:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMike407 said:
Glad i could provide another noob thread to be hijacked.
Boom first dick comment.
Anyway never tried the SGFC. i guess RR says 3/8 is the way.



:huxleyfacepalm:
you got your answer whats your issue:shrug:


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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: bodhisatta]
    #19589877 - 02/19/14 01:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Quote:

MudaFuka said:
Quote:

bodhisatta said:
if you buy a step drill(expensive) you don't really have to worry about cracking the plastic or having to ream the holes to make them look nice and it's super easy to increase the size later, I started off 1/4 now it's cranked up to 3/8 and it's working great aside from a few grains of perlite falling out here and there but it's really no big deal.

I would really love to try out a mono just to say I did it but I get too much harvest as is with my SGFC :lol: I have jars of dried shrooms just sitting around. I only grow for the fun of it now so I'm actually trying to go back to cake sized grows and then bigger grows for edibles.



Could you not just put some window screen under your perlite to keep it out of the holes?



:facepalm:
now why didn't I think of that.




Winning. Learn something new ere'day.


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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: MagicMike407]
    #19590042 - 02/19/14 01:51 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I keep my RH mostly at 100%, use nearly No air exchange (since my substrate to air ratio is already very low), and make a goal to lose effectively No moisture from casing layers - succeeding in doing so as such to where I NEVER mist.
So how do you explain my rapid 3-day pinning?

I'm positive that evaporation from the substrate is overrated as a pinning trigger.

IME/IMO, from least to most influential:

6. Signs of decreasing availability of water ("evaporation from substrate") - but even that one not so much, lest my cakes wouldn't have such great results when bottom-watering.
5. Light stimulation of the culture (both a sign of potential sunbathing as well as imminent death)
4. Constantly saturation humidity micro-climate suitable for knotting (it's somewhat circumstantial that evaporation from bulk subs provides this)
3. Air exchange (increased availability of oxygen relative to carbon dioxide emitted)
2. Full colonization of substrate (no more food, imminent death)
1. No- or Low-nutrition pinning sites

Hope I didn't forget any.


Why do I believe that the no/low-nutrition pinning sight is the highest priority?

That's why.
The substrate and surface have not been fully colonized, no air exchange has been given, no light has been given (except very indirect ambient room light), no moisture has been lost, and no water was present near the pins to begin with.


Also, because I get FAR better results from straight grains when I use a casing layer, and not just because the grains dry up if directly exposed, because I still get relatively crap results from straight grains in the moisture-retaining conditions of invitro.
And I'm not the only one.
Quote:

blindingleaf said:
cased



uncased





You bet your bunny slippers that the uncased grains had LOTS of evaporation and moisture loss.... Crap results.


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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: cronicr]
    #19590163 - 02/19/14 02:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cronicr said:
Quote:

MagicMike407 said:
Glad i could provide another noob thread to be hijacked.
Boom first dick comment.
Anyway never tried the SGFC. i guess RR says 3/8 is the way.



:huxleyfacepalm:
you got your answer whats your issue:shrug:



Oh i have no issue, glad this spawned such interesting discussion. I aknowledged my dickishness
:makesmecry:

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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: MagicMike407]
    #19590165 - 02/19/14 02:20 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:laugh2:
iwas just bugging ya anyway:wink:


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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: Violet]
    #19590442 - 02/19/14 03:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Not sure what violets on about but what I will say is ditch the bubble wrap as it honestly has never made much sense to me, i have heard plenty of people talk about it but never seen them post results and just everytime the guys above have posted good results it seems to have been with a casing layer. Which is cheap... and simple...


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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: bigd17]
    #19590480 - 02/19/14 03:42 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bigd17 said:
Not sure what violets on about but what I will say is ditch the bubble wrap as it honestly has never made much sense to me, i have heard plenty of people talk about it but never seen them post results and just everytime the guys above have posted good results it seems to have been with a casing layer. Which is cheap... and simple...



what have you got against bubble wrap. Iv had great results using wrinkled wax paper in place of bubble wrap.
http://


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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: bigd17]
    #19590496 - 02/19/14 03:45 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah i decided against the bubble wrap after reading these replies. Its getting plenty of FAE and rH boosts as is so I agree- why bother. Cracked the lid, blotted up some yellow drops with swabs, gave it a good fan and put it in the chamber.
The rest is up to Jesus.

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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: cronicr]
    #19590533 - 02/19/14 03:53 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cronicr said:

i would skip the bw, i find it can hinder fae/evaportaion unless you really baby it, i fruited that in open air and will always stand by the more fae the better, just mist when the surface dries up




How dry is 'dry'?, 2 possibilities in my head: when surface has no more water droplets but is still moist to the touch, or when dry to the touch.

How much misting is enough?  If I mist and an hour later there are no more water droplets on the surface but it's moist to the touch, should I mist again or?

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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: invitro]
    #19590544 - 02/19/14 03:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

once those beads are gone or at least start to go away, if it's going away in an hour your getting good fae(i don't ever physicly touch my substrate lol


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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: cronicr]
    #19590569 - 02/19/14 04:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Yea, I don't either it was just a point of reference.  :smile:
That brings up an interesting point though: Once you introduce into fruiting, how long before the droplets go away, what kind of time frame are we shooting for?

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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: invitro]
    #19590592 - 02/19/14 04:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

depends, if you have a constant temp difference they may not go away, moisture will always condensate on the surface which is one of the reasons mono's can be set and forget


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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: cronicr]
    #19590623 - 02/19/14 04:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Well i stand corrected haha.  How is that supposed to work? You let em just naturally lift the bubble wrap/wax paper or do you take it off once pins form?


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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: bigd17]
    #19590728 - 02/19/14 04:42 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I leave it on until my fruits hit there growth spurt. I also take it off to mist. When I first cut it out I make sure it is about an inch smaller than the surface of my sub on all sides to let air flow underneath. I've found it helps but iv recently seen more experienced growers like cronicr and frank say to skip it so what the fuck do I know.


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Re: General quetion about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: MudaFuka]
    #19595379 - 02/20/14 03:43 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Interesting, do you still use a casing layer or is that supposed to be in place of a casing layer?


--------------------
"The secret to success is to make your Vocation a Vacation."
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Re: General question about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: bodhisatta]
    #19595703 - 02/20/14 04:40 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Hey bro silly question but are ya'll talking about 3/8 of an inch or 3/8 of a foot for your holes diameter?


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Re: General question about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: tism83]
    #19595731 - 02/20/14 04:45 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

When has any one ever used fractions with feet, we would just say 4.5 inches.

it's 3/8ths inch.

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Re: General question about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: bodhisatta]
    #19596808 - 02/20/14 09:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:laugh2:


--------------------
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Re: General question about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: tism83]
    #19597025 - 02/20/14 09:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

tism83 said:
Hey bro silly question but are ya'll talking about 3/8 of an inch or 3/8 of a foot for your holes diameter?



Heres a new one, the EGFC
Forget shotgun youd need an elephant gun for holes that large.

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Re: General question about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: MagicMike407]
    #19597538 - 02/20/14 11:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

feet are separated into twelve inches so using eighths with them would be weird. 0.25/12ths of a foot is the right size of holes for a SGFC or 1/48th of a foot.

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Re: General question about rH, FAE theory when growing. [Re: bodhisatta]
    #19597676 - 02/21/14 12:36 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I think he was unsure if we were talking about sgfc or monos lol


--------------------
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