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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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The Power of the Mind
    #1958760 - 09/28/03 03:03 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

In the OTD, people were brushing off the subject of Acupuncture...an ancient chinese method of therapy and cure for certain illnesses, etc...and this is the post I made based on what I wondered about that:
Quote:



its kinda amazing how Asian people gained that knowledge way back when with no real medical education, meanwhile other people in other countries were still living in caves, completely uncivilized...kinda makes you think...maybe cuz people at that time were so..gullible due to lack of hard concrete scientific education, that their minds were easily susceptible to believe anything that they imagined...such as "Hmm...something in my mind tells me, that if I stick sharp needles here and there...my headache will go away.." so, they do it...and because they strongly BELIEVE it...it works...so, is it the power of the mind, over reality? or..is it perhaps, some sort of higher power hinting to the subconscious in the right directions to places in the body where it'd really actually would work to stick needles and release "Chi" power? Hmmm..I think I'll post this matter in the S&P...





So, what do you think our minds are capable of, as far as manipulating our reality? How do you think this may have come into play as far as reality existing as we all percieve it today? I personally, know, and believe that we all have the power to manifest your own reality...like I've said once before.."Reality is like a semi flexible steel bar...you may not be able to break it..but you can bend it, and shape it and manipulate it at your will"...something along those lines...
So at the dawn of our civilization, do you think maybe that most of what we believe to be basic reality TODAY, was determined by what the masses' minds of the ancient past chose to believe?
Hmm...


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: The Power of the Mind [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #1958877 - 09/28/03 04:06 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

So at the dawn of our civilization, do you think maybe that most of what we believe to be basic reality TODAY, was determined by what the masses' minds of the ancient past chose to believe?




I don't think there's any doubt about it. People learn by mimicking other people. (Monkey see monkey do.) And from the societal level of organization it's just as true. A belief or practice grew up around a certain need that was specific to a certain people at a certain time in the distant past. The problem is that since people generally do not examine their beliefs, those beliefs are passed on. That belief is self-sustaining even if its effects are actually damaging in the long run! DaVinci had it right when he referred to the majority of humanity as "meat machines".

Through the passage of time the need for it is forgotten, but the practice or ritual carries on by being passed on through generation after generation. People don't examine their beliefs. The funny thing is if you handed someone something to eat, they would carefully examine it before ingesting it. How much more so should you examine your beliefs before swallowing them??



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InvisibleJellric
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Re: The Power of the Mind [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #1958936 - 09/28/03 04:33 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

So, what do you think our minds are capable of, as far as manipulating our reality? How do you think this may have come into play as far as reality existing as we all percieve it today?




Now that is a very interesting question, and one I can only speculate on. In years past there were many sightings of fairies and brownies and mythical creatures. (Or myths seen from our viewpoint and place in history). Those sightings have been gradually replaced in our modern era by stories of UFOs and aliens, and angels. Are these beings real? If so, are they actually one and the same, but perceived in a way that is relative to local mythology? For example, in NDE's many Christians see Jesus, Hindus see Krishna, Muslims see Mohammad, etc. Presumably they are seeing the same being as in all other ways their experiences are very much alike. It's like a template is applied over the "real thing".

As far as actually manipulating reality, seeing the movie "Excalibur" has made me wonder sometimes if magic, and I mean real non-David Blaine magic, was ACTUALLY PRACTICED in ancient times. And with the dawning of Christianity its practicioners died out and lost their access to that power because people simply stopped believing in it!

We know from studies on certain populations of monkeys that when some monkeys start a new type of behavior, that behavior can be transferred to all monkey tribes of that species. Now that by itself is not surprising. But.. here's what IS: these changes occured when a critical mass level was reached and was applied to ALL monkeys, even those seperated by miles and miles of ocean!! The monkey generates a new behavior and when a critical level of replication is reached, that skill becomes available to ALL monkeys regardless of geographic location!

If this process works in one direction, why couldn't it work in the other direction and mankind loses access to a power it created or accessed through belief?

What is the method of transmission of this information??
When you answer this question you may be closer to answering the question you posed.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Power of the Mind [Re: Jellric]
    #1958948 - 09/28/03 04:35 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

very well put...


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Power of the Mind [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #1959106 - 09/28/03 07:11 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Our mind is quite powerful, and we ourselves decide what software to run on it (or let others choose for us, unfortuantely)...
Peace.


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: The Power of the Mind [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1959942 - 09/28/03 04:57 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

acupunture works because back in the day some taoist alchemists were able to percieve the flow of chi and they spent hundreds of years charting it in the bodies of various animals, including humans.

so meh.


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Offlinerecalcitrant
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Re: The Power of the Mind [Re: truekimbo2]
    #1959981 - 09/28/03 05:09 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

truekimbo2 said:
acupunture works because back in the day some taoist alchemists were able to percieve the flow of chi and they spent hundreds of years charting it in the bodies of various animals, including humans.

so meh.




I'm going to side here for now. "a thousand monkey at a thousand typewriters" sort of deal. Take a billion Chinese and give them five thousand years. They aren't going to sit on their asses watching Darma and Greg, theyz is gwanna try to figure out how to make their head achs go away.

THey had a long time to figure out how to do acupuncture correctly. It's not like they sat down one day and said "yo, i wanna get rid of my headache, so if i BELIEVE that sticking a needle in my skin, well then damnit it'll work"

I'm pressing this point to much for my own liking so there's no need to tell me "yeah fine", please, skip right to "but what about this"


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Power of the Mind [Re: recalcitrant]
    #1960314 - 09/28/03 06:51 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

but you see...the question I'm asking here is...what, how, why did that one first person (or people) somewhere in the Tibetan mountains get that idea in the head to begin with, when this was thousands and thousands of years ago, where most people's knowledge of the human body was mostly based on mysticism, religion, mythology, pure imagination, pure speculation, pure guessing,...There wasn't no Science teacher or Doctor to point them in that direction...they didn't go to the university and read books on it...but yet, they thought of this idea, that by sticking needles in their body, would cure ailments and illnesses, due to certain specific points on the body restricting the "Chi" flow...Not all cultures in the world even believe, nor are aware or, WERE aware of anything having to do with our "Chi" force, so what does that tell you? That this particular belief was a unique belief thought up by the Asians themselves...because only THEY thought up of it themselves...no other higher advanced culture came by and "contaminated" the Asian's purity and innocence with knowledge that was ahead of time for the Asians during it's dawn of civilization...(but then again, you never know)...So, the Asians got this idea, from out of nowhere...with no true scientific or medical education backing them up...and then they built on that specific idea..and they believed it was right...so, hence, the belief is still prevalent to this day...at least in some areas.
Superstitions...and Superstitious folks are a good example of the question I'm posing here...
Superstitious people honestly truly believe that they will suffer the wrath of fate and bad luck if they have a black cat cross their path...or if they spill salt...etc, and because they believe it...they do experience bad luck...of course, this can be explained in a variety of ways, and believe me, I know them all, so no need to try to do that...but I'm just using how superstitious people's minds work as an example of how our ancient ancient ancient ancestors, with no formal modern realistic eductation, mind's worked back then, and how THAT may have shaped the reality that exists to THIS Day...such as People, still practicing AcuPuncture...Liquid Smoke, an asian himself, and a medical intern, has stated himself, that there is yet to be any concrete evidence supporting the validity of acupuncture...So, maybe acupuncture only really works if you BELIEVE It does? Again..another example...of The Power of The Mind...



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OfflinePedM
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Re: The Power of the Mind [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #1960437 - 09/28/03 07:32 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

It's a popular belief, I think, that our civilization has so far been the "best" civilization, because we went to the moon and created the internet and such things. Some think it surprising when since-extinct cultures may have developed some useful tools for dealing with the obstacles life has in store for us.

When in fact, our civilization may be the worst example of human organization to date. Yes, we've managed to excel leaps and bounds in improving our external circumstances, but we've cancelled or put on hold all attention to our internal circumstances, matters of health, symbolism and intuition.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: The Power of the Mind [Re: Ped]
    #1960794 - 09/28/03 09:29 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

PED is a smart mother fucker.

Skorpvio... on one hand I believe that the human mind is capable of great, magnificient things. Yes, capable of healing just through thought alone.

But maybe they were sitting in the mountains with a headache, and saw the gates of life open before them, and saw the intricate details of human anatomy..how everything works and correlates to everything else.. and said.."AHA!!!!!!!"
If I stick this needle here, and give a little twist...voila.

I dont know anything.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: The Power of the Mind [Re: Jellric]
    #1960801 - 09/28/03 09:31 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Let's be magicians.



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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: The Power of the Mind [Re: Shroomism]
    #1961333 - 09/29/03 12:09 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

thats funny, i thought nearly all cultures (including europe) had an analog of chi and acupuncture.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Power of the Mind [Re: truekimbo2]
    #1961448 - 09/29/03 12:48 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

they do NOW


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: The Power of the Mind [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #1961546 - 09/29/03 01:27 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Question: Have you studied much acupuncture?

I?m learning it slowly..it is a very advanced form of healing.
They might not have had all the chi channels, points and meridians mapped out four thousand years ago, but it was still widely practiced in China, and has remained virtually unchanged in thousands of years.

There are literally thousands of points all over the body. Each ?meridian? is associated with a certain organ.



I think that it far surpasses our current western medical understanding of human anatomy and healing. And considering they had this thousands of years ago, that?s a pretty big statement.





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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: The Power of the Mind [Re: Shroomism]
    #1961599 - 09/29/03 01:56 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

The most convincing evidence for the validity of acupuncture - at least, from what I've seen - was presented to me by a distant relative. He was/is an animal acupuncturist... and quite the expert. He travels back and forth between Boston and his country, doing lectures and procedures.

He showed me documentation on what he thought was his best case (a dog... I think it was a terrier of some sort). From what I read of the before and after, the physical condition seemed vague (liver problems?) and the results were unclear at best, BUT there was a substantial change (for the better) in the dog's temperament after acupuncture (I'm leaving out a bulk of details). However, my relative was presenting this as his BEST case. I found it less than compelling as a "proof". If this case were the norm, I'd say that more research should be done to rule out coincidence.

As for acupuncture on humans, the placebo effect can be a powerful tool. If it works, GREAT! But until there is better research/evidence, it is somewhat foolish to unquestioningly accept the theory behind the practice of acupuncture.

But that's just my 2?.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Power of the Mind [Re: Shroomism]
    #1961652 - 09/29/03 02:28 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:

I think that it far surpasses our current western medical understanding of human anatomy and healing. And considering they had this thousands of years ago, that's a pretty big statement.







Exactly...and thats what I'm questioning and trying to analyze here... how, why, what, where, HOW did it all start? Did it start from basic instinctiod urges that we all naturally have towards progression of health and betterment of ourselves? Or simply just started as an idea, with the minds of that specific era, that time where mind's were almost like brand new blank computers waiting to be programmed with information via experiences, minds that were not really restricted with education of laws of science, nature, and physics, etc... it seems like while the west of the world leaned more towards scientific methods of approaches...the eastern parts of the world leaned towards more inner spiritual approaches towards healing, which, in itself, could be considered a type of science, the west got more into medicine, man-made medicine, chemicals, etc...while the easterners stayed with more natural, alternative, mental, herbal, spirititual, etc approaches towards medicine, as a matter of fact, if you open up most Alternative Medicine books, most of those are derived from Ancient Asian cultural methods, etc...but thousands of years ago... those people had no formal education that restricts imagination like it does to most people TODAY..we all "know" too well about what we CANT do..rather than what we CAN do....So, was it pure imagination that sparked the IDEA that putting needles in your body would cure certain illnesses...or was it something innate, something instinctiod? or was it some form of higher power pushing them in the right directions, hinting them via subconscious levels? I've known quite a few people who strongly believe that the subconscious mind KNOWS ALL....It not only knows where the fuck your keys are...but it knows that theres somebody looking at you, right now, behind you..and that theres a spider in the left corner of the ceiling...But, because we all ignore this innate, natural, "talent" that we're born with, from day one...most of us aren't honed into it enough to develop it fully, but, some are luckier than us...What do you think?


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Offlinerecalcitrant
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Re: The Power of the Mind [Re: Ped]
    #1961719 - 09/29/03 03:25 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
but we've cancelled or put on hold all attention to our internal circumstances, matters of health, symbolism and intuition.




While I agree that this civilization may not have made the most advancements (and i use this term loosely) in mistisizms like "intuition" and "symbolism" I am hard pressed to find any example of human behavior that when "western history" has tried it, we haven't been the best at it. All the stuff we made in the last century is more than all the stuff humans ever made before it.

These "internal circumstances" that we aren't living up to the level of ancient civilizations includes health? "Only when the white man came did our people know the meaning of disease" -somefuckinIndian
Are you going to drop that kind of shit in my lap? I may be wrong in saying that our doctors are the best ever, and if I am please tell me, but I dont think so.

I don't see how you can say that one of these other cultures surpases us in mystical matters like symbolism. Do we not understand their understanding of them? Possible exeption here is Ankor Wat but just because they attached some crazy religion to the mathematical amazements of their temples doesn't make them any better than our religions. The jewish rabbis can get pretty technical when they have those argument things. How about the philisophical/ theological discussions that happen with the Tibet monks.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Power of the Mind [Re: recalcitrant]
    #1961776 - 09/29/03 04:28 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

recalcitrant said:
Quote:

Ped said:
"Only when the white man came did our people know the meaning of disease" -somefuckinIndian





There IS some truth to that...
here is a brilliant example that I should've remembered to use long ago;
When you are under a deep hypnosis, and you are been told that you are being touched with a white-hot poker, (when in, reality, all I really touched you with, was with my finger) you will develop a burn/blister on that exact same spot....and not even realize it what happened until you snap out of the hypnosis...
you see where I'm going with this??

As far as what you say about the Indian-quote...maybe this is a better example...
Women in USA and modern first world countries all "know" what an excrutiatingly painful ordeal it is to go through childbirth...and they scream and cry and go nearly beserk, in fact some even DIE from shock, in extreme cases...
BUT...go to Rwanda, in Africa...and just watch the african women give childbirth...she will dig a hole, in the ground, with her hands or whatever primitive tools she has handy, and if possible, hold onto a branch/ pre-built wooden beam for balance and ease...but you will NOT, see the African women give birth in the same attitude, manner, or in almost ANY way that women in your local hospital do...In fact, they make it look like Cotton Candy and Lemonade compared to how most women in the other parts of the world make it look. Now, is this just because African women are just hardy? No, it's simply because word hasnt gotten over to them how painful and hard childbirth is...
See what I mean? Power of Suggestion, Power of Mind....Power of the Synergy of the Sheep of Society....

One more example, and this is quite a common one, whether you believe it or not;
You go to work...do your usual routine..and you hear on the news that there is quite a large number of cases of the flu increasing...and you don't really make a mental note of it or anything, so it doesn't really stand out in your mind...BUT..your brain, your subconscious stores the information...and if you're like most people, prone to suggestion, that is...(to any degree)...then, a few days later...you start feeling sick...either with the cold...flu, whatever..and most likely you wont even realize the REAL reason behind it...but I also want to add, that I believe what determines the outcome of this, the most, is the mental state of mind we are in..how POSITIVE our mind is at the time...if our mind is negative and sad...then, of course, we will indeed be more susceptible to sickness...again, this is just another example...of the Power..of the Mind

There are tons of varieties of examples in the same sense that I've listed all above...
but I'm sure you get the picture of what I'm saying...and how I'm applying this to what "SomefuckinIndian" was saying about how he never knew what Disease really was until The White man came....


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Offlinerecalcitrant
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Re: The Power of the Mind [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #1961833 - 09/29/03 05:21 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

well no, what i meant by it being an indian saying that was the indians didn't have diseas b4 white man came to america (supposedly) so would that be an example of a culture with better "matter of health"?

I was using the example of the american indeans, a culture archeologists and anthropologists call paleolithic, to convey how rediculous an idea it is to call them superior to us in "matters of health."

They didn't have disease even, they must be superior!

We are mapping the genome here. Let's not kid ourselves about which civilization has "put attention" towards health.

If you are going to say that maybe they're attention at medicine was different, they used chanting and insence burning and peyote to cure themselves, and they never knew what diseas was. So that must mean, what, that turning inward, spiritual attention was paid to "matters of health" and this is what kept them disease free? I call you a quack and I hang up the phone!


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Power of the Mind [Re: recalcitrant]
    #1961891 - 09/29/03 05:55 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I pick up the phone and call your ass up again :grin:

Quote:

recalcitrant said:
...they're attention at medicine was different, they used chanting and insence burning and peyote to cure themselves, and they never knew what diseas was. So that must mean, what, that turning inward, spiritual attention was paid to "matters of health" and this is what kept them disease free? I call you a quack and I hang up the phone! 




YES!....but not disease  FREE ...No group of people on the world is ever disease free....but everybody had thier own different approaches and methods towards medicine, be it natural, man made, spiritual, or scientific....It's obvious how "Natural" indians were...they embraced that way of life very proudly and strongly....most had very strong respect for every single living thing, even trees....So naturally their approaches and methods towards "matters of health" were in the same manner..the same fashion..the same respect..and so on. Same goes for the Tibetan monks...they have had very similar philosophies and approaches. Let's not forget what we are talking about here..."The Power of the MIND"

and btw, any good historian will tell you, it IS a fairly well known fact that the "White-man" brought many new diseases and illnesses that the Indians never even experienced before...it's for THIS type of reasons that astronauts would be strongly quarantined after coming back to planet earth from the moon, or Mars....etc. 


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