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OfflinePeteza34
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Re: emotionally defending mental health [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #19550564 - 02/11/14 01:07 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

why do you believe that to be true?



Experience dude.

Quote:

so if you don't believe in God you shouldn't be allowed to comment on christianity? How do these people get diagnosed? where is this school of autistic doctors handing out these diagnosis? are we only allowed to comment on things that we have experienced? where would that get us?
I haven't tried anal fisting but I think I have a solid grasp on how it works... enough so that I could be part of a discussion on anal fisting without having to have had an entire fist up my ass.
if i claim to have some made up disease called Fluffernutitis, which I claim puts me at a disadvantage to learn or work, why shouldn't you be able to call bullshit?



Well you seem to misunderstand what I am saying.  If a person is truly struggling they do not want to hear it from someone who can't relate.  Your examples have nothing to do with what I am talking about.

Quote:

So if someone doesn't know how to drive a car, and I do know how to drive a car, I shouldn't have any knowledge or input regarding driving a car? If someone has mastered some skill or ability, how does that preclude them from giving advice on how to accomplish that skill or ability?



See above response.
Quote:


seems like the two things are complementary. Here you have someone who is great in social situations, and another person who cannot navigate any social event... one is the water in the glass, the other is the space not occupied by water in the glass.
If a blind person wants to know what a rainbow looks like, do they ask another blind person to explain it to them?

now maybe a blind person would rather talk to another blind person about the frustration of not knowing what a rainbow looks like, because they can empathize.... but what you are claiming is ridiculous. Like sighted people shouldn't comment on how beautiful a rainbow is because they don't know what it is like to never have seen a rainbow.





Now you are getting closer to the point.  I guess now is a good time to elaborate on my experience.  I chose social anxiety because I have it.  It is not simply not knowing how to socialize.  Your body physically reacts in ways that you can't control (flight or fight responses).  I think that is probably the worst part of it... watching yourself behave in this ridiculous and insane manner while being powerless to control yourself.  And I'm not a weak person by a long shot.  I have been through life struggles and I have the grey hairs to prove it (I'm 27).  The social phobia takes the cake and when I was in the thick of it I remember thinking that I would gladly go through another open heart surgery instead of that nonsense.

When I was at my worst, the thing I hated most was when people said things like "why would you care what people think of you?  That's silly." or things to that effect.  And sure that is ultimately the solution.. training yourself to have different reactions (CBT), but I didn't want to hear it from them.  The first step to my recovery was when I finally made a friend who was going through the same thing as me.  It was such a relief to be about to open up to someone and have them truly understand and empathize.

I guess I could have made my point a bit more clear but your response is very short-sighted.  I apologize if I offend you but you don't seem to have any idea what you are talking about.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: emotionally defending mental health [Re: Peteza34]
    #19550860 - 02/11/14 03:00 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

so you think you have proven a point by using anecdotes and citing experience as the only way to have a valid opinion regarding mental health.... in a thread talking about the very mechanism employed by people emotionally defending the shaky foundation that mental health rests upon, as you use anecdotes and citing that my opinion is invalid because I have never experienced your unique level of social anxiety?

interesting approach...

Don't take this to sound mean, but in this thread, I honestly don't care about your personal triumphs over imaginary obstacles, or piling anecdotal evidence on top of other anecdotal evidence. I am currently well aware of your stance on the issue, but with every post you seem to want to get farther away from the point... to steer the conversation into the only place you know how to defend from: emotional reactiveness.

do you not see the head-scratcher you have presented here? I have not asked for a personal account of why you feel you are/were biologically predisposed to lack the ability to navigate social situations... in fact, while I had not stated it outright, this thread implies that such anecdotal stories have no weight.

If you would like to disagree with my assessment that people do not over react emotionally to a position that claims the foundation of modern mental health science is a sham.... then fine, disagree with that notion. Maybe even then tell me a great story that anecdotally proves that i am wrong.

I feel like even though I asked you not to touch the big red button, you did. Furthermore, you pushed the big red button after I told everyone that someone is going to push the big red button even after I had explicitly told them not to.
Do you get what I am getting at here? This isn't frame-dragging complexity here.

But you did do one thing which was somewhat of a counter argument to my posit. You handled yourself in a civil manner. Not saying that your posts were void of emotion, but there was nothing I would consider to be an over-reaction.

I realize spill over and topic scattering will go on, especially in this subforum full of people unable to disjoin being introspective and being self-absorbed (meaning there is constantly a struggle to steer the conversation about themselves, because frankly, what else can they talk about?)
So I appreciate your input and a nice little case-in-point action. but if you could hold your real objections regarding my stance on modern mental health for the real thread (ETA dependent on this thread, but likely within 48 hours) I will be happy to be regaled by all your stories about how hard life was for you.

as of right now, I am trying to set a precedent that I can point/link to so that the subsequent thread is not derailed by this nonsense of emotionally defending and invalidation through presumed inexperience.

but please, if you would like to elaborate as to why my (presumed) inexperience with social anxiety excludes me from having a valid opinion on the current state of the entire mental health field, then please continue.... but without anecdotal "reasoning".


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Invisiblepsychodelia
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Registered: 11/29/12
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Re: emotionally defending mental health *DELETED* [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #19551047 - 02/11/14 05:39 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by psychodelia

Reason for deletion: Drunken nonsense



--------------------
don't be nervous


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OfflinePeteza34
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Re: emotionally defending mental health [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #19551403 - 02/11/14 10:01 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

I appreciate your opinion on the subject and I'm not offended or anything.  I responded (or emotionally reacted as you like to put it) with my own story because that is the only way I know how to prove my point in this situation.  You claim that the mental health system is imaginary so citing any medical studies or anything of that nature would do nothing to convince you.  Obviously my story does nothing to convince you either but for me it is fact and nothing less.  And my level of social anxiety is not unique.  I've been on many forums and talked with many like-minded people... that is simply the nature of the disorder and it sucks.  You will find people who say they have social anxiety when they are afraid of public speaking or something like that but the actual disorder is much greater than that. 

People react with such emotion because people with mental health problems are emotional by nature.  You could even rename it "emotional health problems" because most mental health problems are a sickness of your emotions.  Like I said earlier, some weaker minded people tend to over-exaggerate their problems and wallow in self pity, but for some unfortunate people these problems are as real as anything.  If you try to tell someone their problems are imaginary when they are the realest things in their lives, they are of course gonna react with emotion.  And honestly your posts come off as very emotional too.  You seem passionate about your stance on the subject and so you post with passion, same as other people.

Quote:

Uzziel said:
I think the medical diagnosis at large is often misdiagnosed and inaccurate. I've seen so many doctors jump to conclusions. Hell when I went for a normal checkup and told him I had been feeling down because of my ex leaving, he tried to put me on antidepressents for christs sake.




I completely agree with this and I think the reason you(SneezingPenis) are so convinced of your stance is because doctors have such a tendency to misdiagnose and medicate without question. 

Quote:

but please, if you would like to elaborate as to why my (presumed) inexperience with social anxiety excludes me from having a valid opinion on the current state of the entire mental health field, then please continue.... but without anecdotal "reasoning".




Sure you are entitled to your opinion just like everyone else.  But rubbing your opinion in the faces of people on this forum without experience or even facts to back it up is simply ranting and nothing more.  And the fact that no one here seems to agree with you on a forum filled with intelligent people further backs up my point.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: emotionally defending mental health [Re: Peteza34]
    #19551431 - 02/11/14 10:17 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Facts and studies will be coming in the other thread.

This thread is not the discussion of  whether mental health science is sound or not. So I will not be citing studies about such in here.

The over reaction isn't my point, it is mainly to cement the idea that points are invalid because the person doesn't suffer in the exact same manner as yourself. It is not a credible counter argument.

As long as we can all agree that someone does not need to have a mental disorder to be knowledgable on the subject then we can continue. As well as having a mental disorder does not make you an expert on the subject.

For example, lots of people with cancer don't even know proper cell structure or how DNA replication works, as well as plenty of people who don't have cancer are extremely knowledgable about how cancer works and the science behind its diagnosis.

That is all I care about for this thread.

Also, popularity of an idea gives it no credence. More people believe in Allah than The Virgin Mary, so is Islam more correct than Catholicism?


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OfflinePeteza34
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Re: emotionally defending mental health [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #19551540 - 02/11/14 11:05 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Cancer is much more understood than the human brain.  The couple of therapists I have talked to in my life didn't seem to know what the hell they were talking about. 

So the point you are trying to make is that you have the right to try to make a point?  Sure I suppose you do.  But without experience or facts or studies it just comes off as ranting and nothing more.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: emotionally defending mental health [Re: Peteza34]
    #19552069 - 02/11/14 01:56 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Like I said the main course is coming. Feel free to disagree with it when it comes.

But it is entirely possible that I can have a valid opinion and a stance supported by logic,stats,studies and facts even though I don't have autistic children?
Are we going to have people try and tell me all my work is invalid because I don't have a mental disorder?


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OfflineUzziel
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Re: emotionally defending mental health [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #19552160 - 02/11/14 02:22 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SneezingPenis said:
Like I said the main course is coming. Feel free to disagree with it when it comes.

But it is entirely possible that I can have a valid opinion and a stance supported by logic,stats,studies and facts even though I don't have autistic children?
Are we going to have people try and tell me all my work is invalid because I don't have a mental disorder?




Well that really entirely depends if you study "autistic" children and have spent time with them and have significant experience in the matter to say.

It's one thing to have an opinion, its a whole nother ballgame to have experience.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: emotionally defending mental health [Re: Uzziel]
    #19552571 - 02/11/14 04:13 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

So theoretical physicists should be laughed out of town?

Do you see the dichotomy here?
A: I don't believe ADHD exists.
B: well have you ever had ADHD?
A: I don't see how I could claim to have something if I don't think t exists.
B: well if you haven't had it, then how can you claim it doesn't exist?

Let me give you a non mental health equivalent.

A: I don't believe unicorns exist.
B: well have you ever ridden a unicorn?
A: how could I not believe in the existence of unicorns while at the same time be aware of their existence through riding one?
B: well if you haven't ridden a unicorn then I don't see how you are any authority on the subject of unicorn existence.

Why is this hard for some of you to comprehend?

It is like quoting scripture to an atheist.

Do I believe that you think you have ridden a unicorn? Sure, but is it possible that you rode a horse with a carrot on its forehead?
Why is there only room for one theory when there is no real science to support the current accepted theory? Why is anyone who objects to the current paradigm of mental health instantly a dumbass amateur who couldn't possibly have a valid point?


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: emotionally defending mental health [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #19552590 - 02/11/14 04:18 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Western psyciatry and medicine is fucked up (not to say eastern is too, but I cannot know.. I know some is actually good though)..

you are on a slight badtrip it would seem to me.. I would advice taking a step back and (if I am to fully understand you) relax.. maybe roll a fox.


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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OfflineUzziel
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Re: emotionally defending mental health [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #19552910 - 02/11/14 05:38 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SneezingPenis said:
So theoretical physicists should be laughed out of town?




Why would they be? Their title already designates them as "theoretical" it isn't like these guys are claiming it to be fact, only a possibility based on possible scientific evidence (or pieces of evidence).


It isn't like you can physically see their brain function and the effects of the disease in comparison to someone with normal brain function. You can believe or disbelieve that something can exist, but without hard facts, there really isn't much of an argument going on.

I mean really, unless you're refuting with cold hard facts, there really isn't any point in saying "This doesn't exist."


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: emotionally defending mental health [Re: Uzziel]
    #19553722 - 02/11/14 08:05 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

theoretical physicists work with more facts than any mental health scientist.

but again, i digress. I am not in this thread to debate that aspect.

merely the agreement that is it ludicrous to invalidate my points merely because I am not autistic.

do we agree on that?

just answer that simple question.


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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: emotionally defending mental health [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #19553832 - 02/11/14 08:29 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, now make the next thread already so we can have an actual discussion.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: emotionally defending mental health [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #19553889 - 02/11/14 08:39 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SneezingPenis said:
But it is entirely possible that I can have a valid opinion and a stance supported by logic,stats,studies and facts even though I don't have autistic children?




You have not posted exactly what your opinion is, or the things that you are saying about autism. For all we know, you could be saying something completely inaccurate and unsupported by facts or logic.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: emotionally defending mental health [Re: Crystal G]
    #19554068 - 02/11/14 09:20 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

SneezingPenis said:
But it is entirely possible that I can have a valid opinion and a stance supported by logic,stats,studies and facts even though I don't have autistic children?




You have not posted exactly what your opinion is, or the things that you are saying about autism. For all we know, you could be saying something completely inaccurate and unsupported by facts or logic.




And that is fine. If you can find flaws in my arguments please point them out.

For the purpose of this thread, my content or ideas do not need to be known.

All I want is to not have the thread derailed by people who think they have made some salient point by claiming my lack of mental disorders invalidates my points.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: emotionally defending mental health [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #19554073 - 02/11/14 09:21 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SneezingPenis said:
And that is fine. If you can find flaws in my arguments please point them out.




That's the thing. YOU NEVER STATED YOUR OPINIONS. EXACTLY WHAT DID YOU SAY TO THESE PEOPLE THAT CAUSED THEM TO BE OFFENDED?

Just answer the damn question.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: emotionally defending mental health [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #19554115 - 02/11/14 09:29 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sleepwalker said:
Yes, now make the next thread already so we can have an actual discussion.




Part 1 should be posted by this time tomorrow. I am still trying to decide which facet to take on first. I doubt I will plunge straight into stating a thesis like "mental illness is fake rawr". But rather it will be a multi part stroll through my reasoning... All building up support to that claim.

I would begin right now but the funny part is I have a real paper I have to write right now.


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OfflinePeteza34
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Re: emotionally defending mental health [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #19554350 - 02/11/14 10:27 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SneezingPenis said:
Like I said the main course is coming. Feel free to disagree with it when it comes.

But it is entirely possible that I can have a valid opinion and a stance supported by logic,stats,studies and facts even though I don't have autistic children?
Are we going to have people try and tell me all my work is invalid because I don't have a mental disorder?




The thing is people don't wanna work around your timeline.  You started an argument and refuse to move on with it.  I personally have no interest in restating my whole argument when you get around to starting a new thread and asking another question.  I have said my piece.

To answer your question, no your argument would not be invalid simply because you don't have an autistic child.  But I imagine you yourself will make your argument invalid.  You said yourself there is no science behind it so what are you planning to pull out of your sleeves to convince everybody?  Perhaps some sort of theory with no experience or scientific fact to back it up?


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: emotionally defending mental health [Re: Peteza34]
    #19554541 - 02/11/14 11:06 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Feel free to start your own thread. I wasn't aware that people were refreshing the page like it was for concert tickets going on sale, waiting with baited breath for my stone tablets brought down from the mountaintop.


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OfflineUzziel
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Re: emotionally defending mental health [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #19554862 - 02/12/14 12:29 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SneezingPenis said:
theoretical physicists work with more facts than any mental health scientist.

but again, i digress. I am not in this thread to debate that aspect.

merely the agreement that is it ludicrous to invalidate my points merely because I am not autistic.

do we agree on that?

just answer that simple question.




Why would it invalidate your opinion just because you're not autistic? You don't have to be something to understand something.


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