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Invisiblemodern.shaman
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #19434472 - 01/17/14 06:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Ferrel did you 'test' to see how reactive your limestone is with acid? Dropping it in vinegar and seeing if it fizzes will show how reactive it is. IF it doesn't fizz it doesn't affect the ph which happens with some sources of limestone.

Another thing to be very careful with is how high your ph gets due to the limestone. Sure they live in pure limestone in some cases but limestone and other rocks react differently in pots and amounts. Even the author of stone eaters cautions the amount of limestone you should include.

This may not be the case with lophophora however something to think about is aztekium ritteri. They also grow in pure gypsum/limestone cliffs however the ph around their roots is surprisingly low 4.5-5.5 if I remember correctly. What was believed to be the case is that they live in these conditions mainly as a source of high amounts of calcium which may provide necessary amounts nutrients for their growth however the water/soil doesn't react with the limestone changing the ph from acidic to basic. They and other cacti seem to simply 'anchor' onto these cliffs of these rocks but don't seem to actually need the high ph or even have the ph affect as is the case with ritteri.

I completely agree with using a 80-100% mineral mix for these cacti and I have been slowly modifying my mixtures however I would just caution using high amounts of limestone. I may be wrong and it could have no ill effect on the cacti other then extremely slow growth which is what you want :laugh:


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Offlineintelligentlife
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: modern.shaman]
    #19436025 - 01/18/14 01:25 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I'm just waiting a parcel where is cuttings and pulverized limestone.. I planned to add some of it to my lophs but don't know the amount yet.. I planned to just throw some powdered limestone at top of rocky soil of lophs and wash it "down" by water spray or so.. It will later on come a part of mineral "soil" if I can even call my growing medium of peyote and ariocarpus to soil.. Only random spots of sandy soil I have add there around the tap root. I should probably start with low amounts.. From there limestone if very hard to obtain without buying it from another country, it isn't necessary probably but still I buy'd 50grams of limestone powder with cuttings.

Should I test the powder with vinegar and see what happens?

Limestone is rare there and basically it can't be find even anywhere close to my town from wild. I have still local collected rocks, probably 4-6 different mineral based rocks in the pot so if I add some limestone to mix with these mineral rocks, soil and perlite, can it even change dramatically the pH of the whole mixture? I don't even know what pH I have for my plants.. The soil I have used are ~6.3-6.7pH but amount of soil are mixed to rocks it's very small..

I don't know how I can measure the pH from rocks anyway.. Also fertilizers and water may have change the pH little bit but afaik lophs will do fine at very acidic or very alkaline soil anyway? I need to test out the lime stone to few pots before I add if to every pot or does it really matter if limestone amount are probably less than 1% of total concentration of growing medium?

Basically I have not seen reason to use limestone but I find out one nursery sell limestone powder so I think to buy some cheap limestone powder and try to make growing medium similar to habitat.. Would this benefit more ariocarpus than lophs anyway?

Some guidance about ariocarpus growing medium say they should be planted to rocky soil with limestone mixed. I have yet not seen any ariocarpus get shocked about changing the growing medium but lophs are different.

I have anyway 10% vinegar so should I test the limestone powder before I start to add it slowly to rocks around tap root of plants?

Some peyote I have they have never grown at limestone and they're kinda old.. But how fragile lohs really are? I have seen some can tolerate change of growing medium without any stress to plant and some are very fragile from that point of view..  Never find out about ariocarpus much, They are very hardy to elements, no neem damage, seems some tolerate lots of water and moist soil along rocks etc.. My problem with lohpophora are actually lophophora fricii what I have find out they are very prone to rot and stress easily of sudden growing medium changes..

Ariocarpus is the reason I actually buy'd the limestone powder and I have seen they can tolerate sudden changes in soil easier than lophs.

I'm just interested about these both species and think I want to introduce slowly some limestone to every lophophora and ariocarpus I have. I just don't know the effects what happen if old loph, never been in touch to limestone, should I add slowly lime stone powder to soil over the season to avoid risk of plant shock? I don't want to ruin appearance of of lophs with limestone, even it's natural mineral rock in plant habitat.. :yesnod:


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OfflineLSoares
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: intelligentlife]
    #19436122 - 01/18/14 02:01 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

intelligentlife said:
I planned to just throw some powdered limestone at top of rocky soil of lophs and wash it "down" by water spray or so..




Shit, I'm late for a trip and I'll be away for the weekend, but DON'T DO THIS!!! It will raise the pH of your mix to toxic levels, the soil where these plants grow is acidic, albeit limestone-based. When people say they use limestone in their mixes is limestone chippings, not powder. I'll get back to this.


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Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

Sowing cacti - my way!
Random pictures of my collection.
Photographing cacti, Z's way.


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OfflineLSoares
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: modern.shaman]
    #19436135 - 01/18/14 02:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

modern.shaman said:
Sure they live in pure limestone in some cases but limestone and other rocks react differently in pots and amounts.




This is really important. "Soil" is a living thing that cannot be kept captive in a pot, and all considerations regarding "soil" should be ported VERY CAUTIOUSLY to plants in pot culture.


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Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

Sowing cacti - my way!
Random pictures of my collection.
Photographing cacti, Z's way.


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Offlineintelligentlife
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: LSoares]
    #19436237 - 01/18/14 03:03 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

That's what I think about to ask before I add anything.. I have not even received a parcel yet with lime stone powder...

The nursery sell this as reagent for loph and ariocarpus soil but there was no any guidance how to use it and I was think IF I even use it, amounts should be very small..

Also that what comes to growing plant in pot and plant what grow freely at habitat, ofc they're different.

I just don't know why one big nursery sell this powder to use in soil..

Thanks for advice.. I think I don't add the powder to plants, or maybe test it with one plant as amounts of 0,5grams/plant or less..

I have get to understanding it's not full powder but it's more like chips and powder mixed, haven't seen the product but I have seen only picture from that product..

LSoares: Thanks about advice... Do you have any idea why this limestone powder are sold for loph and ariocarpus cultivation? Could it be just reagent meant to be mixed with acidic soil and so on?

It's weird I just don't find answer what is the right amount to even use the this powder(what seems to be from product picture chips with powder) or what is the real purpose of this.. Maybe only purpose is to mix few grams to big amount of soil if water and soil is too acidic?

Just don't know, it was reagent for cactus cultivation so I think I buy 50grams of it for testing and good I asked it before I have parcel..

I should ask about it from that nursery what it for and how much for example 0.5Liter clay pot even "need" this stuff.. :shrug:


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OfflineGoOnThen
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: intelligentlife]
    #19436385 - 01/18/14 04:44 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Do they call it limestone powder or lime powder. The is some massive differences in some of these products.
Here are a few Wiki links
Dolomite Lime
hydrated lime
Agricultural lime

It will be very hard to work out how much lime to use in small pots. I personally would only use limestone chips in a mix as it will release very slowly.
If you have a read of the info that is on the net you will find that the size of the particles can make a big difference on how quickly the PH alters. This is why we are saying not to use the powder until you know exactly what it is and what you want to achieve.

Cheers
Got


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Offlineintelligentlife
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: GoOnThen]
    #19436542 - 01/18/14 06:24 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I can't have have actual web site write wrong but their website said "limestone powder" not dolomite lime.

If I want dolomite lime, I can get it locally..

It is limestone, pulverized or made to "sand"-like  stuff and sold as 25g bags.

I can tell more when I receive my parcel.. Only way is to me is just trust the picture and website what is good nursery in europe and they have always nice fine quality lophophora.

It's this product, for me it seems it's grind chips or so..

Details: Limestone pulver 25gram

Afaik nursery sell "lophophora potting soil" also and this is one reagent in the soil but I'm not sure. Still I decided just to buy two bags of this to see what is this, I don't think it's pure pulverized stuff.. Need to wait till Monday and ask from that nursery what this is and how much it should be even used.. I'm sure it's cactus plant soil product anyway.

No more I can't know before I have the parcel with two bags of this "limestone pulver 25gram"

Picture is from website I buy'd it, still waiting parcel anyway so I have not seen it, can't say what it really is..

Limestone I was think to buy, dolomite was available here anyway but only at 50-100kg amounts..


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Edited by intelligentlife (01/18/14 06:27 AM)


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Invisiblekarode13Facebook
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: intelligentlife]
    #19439271 - 01/18/14 06:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Just my 2 cents: I apply a handful of dolomite lime to all Trichocereus species at the start of the growing season. It's a slow release form of Magnesium(Mg) and Calcium(Ca). It also helps keep the soil neutral.

I don't use it on Lophs, Arios or Astros as I've read chips are the preferred amendment.

Never use Hydrated lime and never apply lime and fertilizers at the same time. There's a reaction that creates a toxic soil environment. You add one and then the other a few weeks later.


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Offlineintelligentlife
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: karode13]
    #19440676 - 01/19/14 01:01 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I was think about something like that. Problem with limestone chips is the thing, geology makes it's harder and there are no limestone even near by me so I need to buy it somewhere where I can and small amounts because I can't afford to buy in mail shitloads of limestone anyway, also I don't need it so big amounts random vendors selling.

I'm not sure anyway do I add anything for trichs, I think I could buy some dolomite lime but it's available only at amounts of 50-100kilogram bags from agriculture vendors. Anyway, product I am waiting is just basically limestone and I don't know how much it is pulverized of crushed anyway. I hope there is limestone chips in the "limestone pulver" bag or whatever it is.

I've usually add at spring for trichs new black soil at top layer of pot, then make new water good to let new soil actually fertile the soil slowly over the summer.. This have worked good for me and I do it for many plants, add fresh new rich soil small layer at top old soil and water from top for good. It have worked also with trichs last summer and plants seems to like it good.

Should I actually avoid to use limestone for trichs and use only chips of limestone then? I think I try to ask from nursery what they say about that.. I have very small clay pots for arios and lophs, one pot have 2-4 peyote, younger plants are 9 or 20 plants in same pot. I was just think about to ask from nursery also why they sell this pulverized limestone and what for it's meant to use and how much, and if it's like limestone "sand" I should use it with caution...

But anyway, I have understand lime can't rise pH over 7 or is it dolomite lime what "balance" the pH to around 6.5-7pH?

There are used dolomite lime in agriculture because some swamp lands can turn earth very acidic, below 5.5-6pH, so it will used to get pH near 7 but not too high.. Most plants likes pH of 6.5-7 or so.. There are basically all soil outdoors acidic, and plants like it, some plants grow only at swamp areas where pH can go below 6pH..

That "limestone pulver" was only I could buy with cuttings so I think to see what it is, if there is bigger chunks of limestone I probably use them and doesn't use the pulverized stuff much, maybe at spring add small layer to tirch soil and let it slowly go from top of the soil in to roots.

I can show a pic from the stuff what kind it is when I receive the parcel with cuttings where this limestone pulver are also.

I have not get any guidance or read any reviews about that "limestone pulver" from nursery what sell that stuff but I hope I can ask from the nursery how I use it or so.. I think if picture is correct, it's limestone chunks smashed to smaller pieces.. I think next week I have the parcel there, I don't actually even know because delivery time vary so much.

Also I think vendor delay the sending or parcel with cuttings, there are not fucking cold.. -39C frosts. :gangsta:

Well.. I hope I get the stuff soon, so I can see what it is.. Also I should find out probably also from nursery and ask why they sell the stuff and how much it should be used.. There was no information about use of it, it was just one of many stuff they sell for cactus plant soil. Only thing I can't get locally anywhere.


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Edited by intelligentlife (01/19/14 01:14 AM)


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Invisibleferrel_human
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: intelligentlife] * 2
    #19526440 - 02/05/14 04:29 PM (10 years, 19 days ago)

Almost done repotting them all. I still got some left.



This small pot includes my seedlings. I took all the smallest chip of rock for this tray. I think they look rather well.


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Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode


Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade


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InvisibleSuperD
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: ferrel_human] * 1
    #19526681 - 02/05/14 05:19 PM (10 years, 19 days ago)

Lookin good man.  Don't you dare vanish on us. :wink:


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:super:D
Manoa said:
I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. :lol:

Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), :pm: me if you have any for trade


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Invisibleferrel_human
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: SuperD]
    #19527198 - 02/05/14 07:12 PM (10 years, 19 days ago)

Ill try and be as integral as possible.


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Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode


Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade


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OfflinetheMallacht
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: ferrel_human]
    #19528318 - 02/05/14 11:24 PM (10 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

ferrel_human said:
Ill try and be as integral as possible.




He returns! Good to see you back man, this place isn't the same without you.


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Invisiblekarode13Facebook
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: ferrel_human]
    #19528372 - 02/05/14 11:47 PM (10 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

ferrel_human said:
Ill try and be as integral as possible.





You better. :hi:  :shineon:


Plants look good in that mix. Eating :popcorn: until you update with some results.

Kia kaha!


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OfflineLSoares
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: karode13]
    #19528476 - 02/06/14 12:25 AM (10 years, 19 days ago)

Looking good, man. Love those Encephalocarpus! :thumbup:

(welcome back, btw)


--------------------
Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

Sowing cacti - my way!
Random pictures of my collection.
Photographing cacti, Z's way.


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Invisibleferrel_human
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: LSoares]
    #19534900 - 02/07/14 11:13 AM (10 years, 18 days ago)

My seedling tray. Montmollonorite clay (hope I spelt that right), granite, limestone, mica-schist and sandstone.  Nice 100% rock. Its got all the little crevices perfect to house seedlings once the dome comes off.



The seeds will be Strombocactus esperanzae, the just recently discovered Strombocactus coreegidorae, Aztekiu  hintonii, Ariocarpus bravoanus. Now I got some trichocerues from seed, the nitrogen crosses that I got from the now defunct hookahead. He produced many crests and weirdos from the bunch and I was lucky enough to trade with him.

I can start trichocereus in all rock, right?


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Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode


Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa


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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: ferrel_human]
    #19534946 - 02/07/14 11:30 AM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Awesome! 

I don't see why the trichos can't be started on rock.  But then again if they are special I would do what ever I know works best.

:popcorn:


Edited by Corporal Kielbasa (02/07/14 02:09 PM)


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Offlineintelligentlife
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #19536074 - 02/07/14 04:44 PM (10 years, 17 days ago)

Ferrel: I think it's too late but have you tried to use for example 30-40% coco coir and 60-70% rocks? Nice project:thumbup:

I have find out coco coir with rocks is good for seedlings.. coco coir hold moisture good but still dry fast.

I have just sown over half thousand peyote to mixture of 1/3 coir, 1/3 perlite and 1/3 pumicide and rocks. They are in mini greenhouse.. When I see sprouts, I add new layer of rocks over them to support them. First I thin I add 1cm layer of rocks and sow seeds there but later on I think I can add the rocky layer when I see sprouts. My biggest seedling project so far, all half thousand loph. williamsii :headbang:

Please update how seedlings grow you there, do you have sow seeds between(or half under) the rocks? I find out they don't need to be very surface of soil, even under rock is enough if they got some light from small crack of surface.

I have still find out seedlings grow directly from rocks. Like happened to one cactus pot I had, now I have moved this surprise peyote to clay pot with another seedlings

Anyway, between rocks it will rise I don't even know when seed have drop there. Next to it is stock plant with peyote scion :awesome:

I find out about, I transplanted two ~20months old lophs to new pot few days ago. Roots was very strongly attached to rocks.. These two lophs are my hard grown ones, only ~6mm diameter but lenght of them with root was 5cm and 3cm.. I doesn't even tried to take the rocks away from root, I tried to transplant them gently. My 20months old lophs are smaller or same size than my 7 months old seedlings(what I have grown with extra heat


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Invisibleferrel_human
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: intelligentlife]
    #19536113 - 02/07/14 04:52 PM (10 years, 17 days ago)

I thought about that but I went 100% in organic. Maybe the trich seeds I woild go 50/50. Give it a try amd see how it goes.


--------------------
Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode


Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade


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OfflinetheMallacht
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Re: Welcome to the Stone Eaters- A Soil Revolution [Re: ferrel_human]
    #19536379 - 02/07/14 06:11 PM (10 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

ferrel_human said:
I thought about that but I went 100% in organic. Maybe the trich seeds I woild go 50/50. Give it a try amd see how it goes.




Coco is kind of inorganic, it's completely inert, technically a form of hydroponics used by itself or with other inert ingredients like perlite. It won't add anything to the mix nutrients wise, just hold a little bit of moisture. I think this is a great idea and I'll probably start planting my globulars in something like what intelligentlife suggested. I've been replanting all of my Trichs in 50/50 Coco/Perlite. I'm going to figure out a nutrient plant to make them grow as fast as possible, hopefully not sacrificing thickness though.


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Edited by theMallacht (02/07/14 06:18 PM)


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