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Anonymous
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 Re: "Long live file sharing, death to bland culture"  [Re: Phluck]
#1951410 - 09/25/03 02:49 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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you raise some very good points. what should be done though? there has to be some kind of way that artists can get credit and pay for their work.
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 Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
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Re: "Long live file sharing, death to bland culture" [Re: ]
#1951470 - 09/25/03 03:05 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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That's a really good question...
I guess there's quite a few possibilities. One, is that it will never again be possible to make a lot of money selling recorded music, but then again, perhaps it will live on, as books have despite libraries. It's to say. I do know some people who value their record collections as much as they value being able to listen to the music, and I'm sure they'll continue to purchase albums.
Musicians may be forced to focus on their live shows, but this seems like it may not work out for the best for some musicians, who do a much better job producing music in a studio than they do onstage.
There's the iTunes solution, which is to sell individual songs over the internet. I'm not sure how well this will work, as the prices don't really come out much better than buying CD's, and it's not difficult to get past the copy protection.
The way the industry works is going to change drastically, that's all I can say for sure. Necessity is the mother of invention, and at this point it's become EXTREMELY necessary to revamp the system.
Another thing: I don't think it's going to be long before the MPAA is throwing hissy fits as well. It's already possible to download full DVD quality movies over file sharing services, but there isn't a great selection, the quality is usually much lower, and it's not really an option unless you have a high-speed connection that you can leave running for a few days at a time. As the technology improves, this is going to become more and more pervasive.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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 luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: "Long live file sharing, death to bland culture" [Re: ]
#1951590 - 09/25/03 03:43 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Nice job in this thread mushmaster.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: "Long live file sharing, death to bland culture" [Re: DoctorJ]
#1951606 - 09/25/03 03:47 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
would you pay that ridiculous amount for a coke, or would you just take it?
Neither. It belongs to someone else.
Taking it would be stealing and I'd be no better than all the other scumbag thieves.
Paying $20 would be stupid.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,652
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Last seen: 51 minutes, 58 seconds
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Re: "Long live file sharing, death to bland culture" [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1951746 - 09/25/03 04:32 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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What if there were an open cooler and there was no-one arround?
...and you had the option to make a copy of the coke and drink it rather than taking one of the ones you found?
Real object analogies for downloading music are irrelevant.
Record companies provide a service. THey go out, find bands, and show them to the public. Otherwise you would have to go out and find your own bands.
Which would probably be for the best, really.
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This space for rent
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 5 months, 22 days
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Re: "Long live file sharing, death to bland culture" [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#1951770 - 09/25/03 04:40 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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"...and you had the option to make a copy of the coke and drink it rather than taking one of the ones you found?"
Like Pepsi?
"Record companies provide a service. THey go out, find bands, and show them to the public. Otherwise you would have to go out and find your own bands."
An excellent point. File sharing makes it a hell of a lot easier to find your own music.
Even if the record companies were fighting a noble battle (which they're not, they're just fighting to fill their pockets), they've already lost.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
Edited by Phluck (09/25/03 04:41 PM)
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: "Long live file sharing, death to bland culture" [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#1951810 - 09/25/03 04:57 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
What if there were an open cooler and there was no-one arround?
I still wouldn't take it.
As for downloading music, I do it. However if I like it I go out and buy it. If I don't like it, it gets deleted.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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 Re: "Long live file sharing, death to bland culture" [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1951819 - 09/25/03 05:00 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:
What if there were an open cooler and there was no-one arround?
I still wouldn't take it.
As for downloading music, I do it. However if I like it I go out and buy it. If I don't like it, it gets deleted.
Sort of like stealing a CD, listening to it, and then either buying it or returning it.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: "Long live file sharing, death to bland culture" [Re: silversoul7]
#1951850 - 09/25/03 05:09 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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No, it's like hearing a song on the radio and then either buying it or not.
Nothing was stolen and the artist gets paid if I like it, yet loses nothing if I don't.
I don't keep what I haven't paid for.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Anonymous
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Re: "Long live file sharing, death to bland culture" [Re: Phluck]
#1951871 - 09/25/03 05:16 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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even if a system free of copyright infringement was adapted, the internet would still spell death for the record industry as we know it.
their product, creating publicity as well as actually producing and distributing recordings, is made obsolete by the internet. they are pretty much dinosaurs, and i say good riddance. their influence on music culture is certainly very negative.
there has got to be some way to prevent unauthorized duplication though. copyrights are important, and they need to be enforced somehow.
i'd like to see a situation where artists retain 100% of the rights to their music, and distribute electronic copies from their own website or from music servers for a small fee. the money would go straight to the artist. i think this would be the best situation. i don't see how there can be any progress though as long as people can just copy music without paying anyone for it.
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Edame
gone
Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
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Re: "Long live file sharing, death to bland culture" [Re: ]
#1951904 - 09/25/03 05:25 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Mush, check out Magnatune. I think they have a pretty good idea going. What do you think?
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The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.
And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.
"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.
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Anonymous
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Re: "Long live file sharing, death to bland culture" [Re: Edame]
#1952088 - 09/25/03 06:26 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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yeah, i like it. i'm not sure how successful it's going to be though as long as it's so easy to just copy from somewhere else (albeit illegally) for free.
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DoctorJ
Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Re: "Long live file sharing, death to bland culture" [Re: ]
#1952216 - 09/25/03 07:11 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
DRJ: would you pay that ridiculous amount for a coke, or would you just take it?
MM: you know... there is a third possibility.
dying of thirst isnt a very pleasant possibility, and neither is living without music
Quote:
your right. this is because nirvana has a monopoly on nirvana. that's how it works.
Nirvana, and specifically Kurt Cobain, wanted poor people to have access to their music (this is why Kurt allowed the censorship of the In Utero cover by WalMart- Kurt didnt want poor, small-town fans whose only resource for music was WalMart to be denied access to the albumn). Anyway, they certainly didnt want or get $17+ for each CD. These prices were set by Geffen, not Nirvana. Don't make it sound as if it was Nirvana's intention to gouge fans, because it wasnt.
Quote:
if you don't think the price is reasonable, don't buy it. don't fucking steal it though.
This makes sense in terms of a competetive market, but as I have already pointed out, the music market is far from competitive.
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DoctorJ
Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Re: "Long live file sharing, death to bland culture" [Re: ]
#1952229 - 09/25/03 07:16 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
there has got to be some way to prevent unauthorized duplication though. copyrights are important, and they need to be enforced somehow.
I'm sure some kind of new encryption or anti-copy technology will make this possible. It seems like a very easy thing to cook up, and it probably will be cooked up, and it will be a good thing. As long as Big labels dont use it to retain their stranglehold on the market, and their obsolete positions as uneccessary middle men.
Quote:
i'd like to see a situation where artists retain 100% of the rights to their music, and distribute electronic copies from their own website or from music servers for a small fee. the money would go straight to the artist.
I definitely agree. But it would require a total change in the basic structure of music marketing, and I dont think the big labels are planning on loosening their grip unless something (read: file sharing) forces them to.
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Edame
gone
Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
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Re: "Long live file sharing, death to bland culture" [Re: DoctorJ]
#1952297 - 09/25/03 07:37 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
I'm sure some kind of new encryption or anti-copy technology will make this possible. It seems like a very easy thing to cook up, and it probably will be cooked up, and it will be a good thing.
I'm not so sure. You can have all the DRM and encryption in the world, but at the end of the day the music still has to get from the speakers (or audio-out) to your ears, and at that point it's copyable again. It might not be a perfect digital copy, but then again neither is an MP3.
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The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.
And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.
"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.
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MusicSucks
Illegal Smile
Registered: 08/05/03
Posts: 35
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Re: "Long live file sharing, death to bland culture" [Re: DoctorJ]
#1952321 - 09/25/03 07:41 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Recorded music (as well as movies) nowadays are impossible to keep copywritten. Somehow, in some way, people can give away music for free, wether it be downloading or copying cds or what have you. Acknowledging that fact, I think that people should have every right to do as they please with recorded music. The producers of that music, knowing that this is the case, can then direct their attention towards other profitable aspects of their career, such as live performances, licensed merchandise and such. They would sacrifice their money towards recording albums, yes, but, if they did so successfully, they would make up for it in the aforementioned ways. There would also be no reason to stop selling recorded music, as many people (myself included, even with obscene cd prices) still purchase albums. Sure, there won't be as much money made from record sales, but this will only serve to create better live acts (which in my opinion are more important than records if you really like the band), which are seriously lacking in some types of music. In this system, there wouldn't be untalented singers and bands making huge amounts of money off of music that is only popular because it has been force-fed to the people, rather, those musicians who were most talented and willing to put time, effort, and money into their careers would succeed.
Now, I do say this out of experience. I have played music before. I have played live (on a local scale), and my band had to work to earn the money to rent the venue and such. Had we worked more on our music and show, we could have begun releasing music and playing at venues to turn a profit. This, in my opinion, is how musicians should begin: develop a local fanbase, improve to the point where shows, merchandise and recordings will make money, and continue to spread your music to as many people as possible; a service that file sharing will provide to you free of charge.
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There is no dark side of the moon really... Matter of fact, it's all dark.
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DoctorJ
Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Re: "Long live file sharing, death to bland culture" [Re: Edame]
#1952339 - 09/25/03 07:46 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
I'm not so sure. You can have all the DRM and encryption in the world, but at the end of the day the music still has to get from the speakers (or audio-out) to your ears, and at that point it's copyable again. It might not be a perfect digital copy, but then again neither is an MP3.
Maybe if they phased the analog components out of sound equipment? Took away flexibility in the hardware? I dunno, copying tapes and cds has never been too big a threat, I was talkin bout just pure data. Make it difficult to rip data straight from a CD and I garuntee you it will greatly curtail piracy.
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 5 months, 22 days
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Re: "Long live file sharing, death to bland culture" [Re: DoctorJ]
#1953982 - 09/26/03 10:19 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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"I'm sure some kind of new encryption or anti-copy technology will make this possible."
If you can play the music, you can convert it to a non-protected format. I don't think there's ever going to be a way around this.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 5 months, 22 days
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Re: "Long live file sharing, death to bland culture" [Re: DoctorJ]
#1953985 - 09/26/03 10:20 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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"Make it difficult to rip data straight from a CD and I garuntee you it will greatly curtail piracy."
They've done that, and it's nothing more than an inconvenience.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Anonymous
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Re: "Long live file sharing, death to bland culture" [Re: Phluck]
#1953997 - 09/26/03 10:24 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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yep. there's no way to build copyright protection into the technology. you really can't prevent it from happening without enforcement.
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