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Hobozen


Registered: 11/03/11
Posts: 10,634
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done right it's the only way to create an undercurrent of calm IME. i kinda can't live without it. life gets too boring and messy.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,761
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Re: self inquiry.. [Re: Hobozen]
#19430161 - 01/16/14 08:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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"what am I tensing?" seems to be my main question then back to the breath
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: self inquiry.. [Re: quinn] 1
#19436224 - 01/18/14 02:48 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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quinn said: how important do you think it is?
it is important if you seek self-realization, if you seek to realize the nature of yourself
if you want to realize the infinite, life, the absolute, reality, truth, the universe, the unknown, the nature of awareness, bliss, liberation, wisdom... you understand that to get anywhere near understanding these things, you have to understand yourself as they are ultimately synonymous, so you inquire into the nature of yourself as it is
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do you find it useful?
beyond belief, but it's only 'useful', or even possible if you want the truth, if you seek self-realization i find you have to have a strong interest in these things, you have to really want it, some say you have to want it like a drowning man wants his next breath
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it seems clear to me that most of us have blind spots.. also people can get themselves into a rut that only the help of someone else can get them out of..
in my experience communicating or ideally being around someone who has been practicing self-inquiry 'sucessfully' can help you practice it yourself, and in many cases it's a precursor for it
it can appear highly paradoxical because you have what you seek all along, you are the self you're inquiring into, which is the whole point of inquiring into it in the first place, to consciously realize oneself as it is, to realize what is all along as that alone can be called true, yet as people have reported for as long as people have reported, being around someone who has realized can have an energetic effect on your own inquiry
ultimately there is no paradox as any help you get is only from yourself, it's the divisive mind that says help from another person is from outside oneself
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my definition of self inquiry in the op is reflecting back on yourself and thinking about your intentions, subconscious motivations, influences of your surroundings on your behavior etc
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agree? thoughts?
i don't totally agree with your definition of self-inquiry apart from i think 'reflecting on yourself' is a decent way of putting it, it is not necessarily thinking about anything or sifting through mental modes as the self is beyond the mind, sifting through the mind can be the process but it is never the 'goal'
self-inquiry is a means of bringing about self-realization which is a non-dual state where you have realized/dissolved your identity into the truth of everything
as a practice it is questioning ones own nature - who am i? what am i? or just being silent, just being, which is natural and beyond easy for all, the difficult part is ceasing the habit of defining/identifying/limiting that sense of being to association with appearances, and one of if not the greatest self-deception is thinking there is something you have to do at all
it can be a headfuck of a 'practice' because the whole point of it is not trying to get somewhere but to remain as you always are, to stop trying to get anywhere, to stop trying to get anything, to stay true to yourself as it is, so to practice it i feel one must deeply understand this first, it's the theory behind the experiment if you will
it can also be a headfuck because in practicing it, in inquiring into the nature of self you can think you're trying to make the self known as we usually know things, when the non-duality of the self by it's very nature is the unknown, if it is truly infinite, unbound, limitless, whole, one, then it can never be known, you can never objectify yourself as the known you can only be yourself
'knowing' itself implies duality, one thing knowing another, so it can not lead to non-duality, it's a path of unknowing, of shedding all identity
so self-inquiry in a way is to consciously abide as the mystery, as the unknown, to stop pretensing yourself to be the known
its more of a sensing than a knowing, you sense yourself
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Edited by Chronic7 (01/18/14 07:31 AM)
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hTx
(:



Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
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Re: self inquiry.. [Re: Chronic7]
#19436232 - 01/18/14 02:59 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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No-self inquiry is self-inquiry, versa-vice.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: self inquiry.. [Re: Sse]
#19436241 - 01/18/14 03:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sse said: useful yeep but like you said if I was left to self inquiry without any help from outside then id prob still be left creating my own delusional/destructive perspectives... not that those aren't still there but they are much friendlier to my self and others.... one glace from another person before could send me in a whirlwind of conclusions and perceptions that I was so sure were true... like I could read minds flawlessly or something. Glad to be out of that stage, thanks to self inquiry... many many thanks to self inquiry... but the thanks all goes to the collective... because left to my self id prob still be living in a shed or in some alley way somewhere... thinking and concluding so many destructive patterns of thought... spouting delusion but Teflon blood so... let it flow
same, to some extent
using the mind to quiet the mind seems futile like one said
but self-enquiry helped me it seemed, suddenly I remembered what I wasn't and felt bliss everyday since
but my consciousness is a product of what I give and what I receive from others not sure I have had any delusions yet, but maybe one day I find out 
the only delusions I remember were from smoking weed, stopped doing that thoughts ran out of control
what psychedelics have done for me is to open the mind, no exceptions anymore not sure if it's good or bad, but I like it
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Sse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
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let it flooooooooooooooooow
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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Jaegar
Formless One



Registered: 05/04/09
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Re: self inquiry.. [Re: Sse]
#19490236 - 01/29/14 08:22 AM (10 years, 26 days ago) |
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The self is survival construct of the brain. Free yourself embrace what culture would deem wicked.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
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Re: self inquiry.. [Re: quinn]
#19502211 - 01/31/14 04:46 PM (10 years, 24 days ago) |
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Sri Ramana Maharshi's Vichara Atma was profound for me when I discovered it. It covered all the 'sheathes' that the classic Yoga delineated, and I saw more and more 'onion skins,' of identity, many of which were unconscious, or taken for granted as being simply 'me.' As you take your identity apart, you get a different formulation of the Eternal than that which Buddhism postulates. There is this Atman, this Eternal I AM, which Buddhism relegates to 'Eternalism,' and names as one of the two wrong views, the other one being 'Nihilism.' I don't believe that we each have a separate Eternal Self, but that Ultimate Reality Itself is that I AM. Our small self, the jivatman is like a magnifying glass that focuses the 'Sun' of the Atman such that we are deceived into claiming individual identities. We believe that our individuality, our differences is what gives us identity, but as St. Paul said, "we have this treasure [identity] in clay vessels." Self-inquiry has retained it's importance with regard to self-knowledge, and ultimately says exactly the same thing as Buddhism, namely that all phenomena, including selfhood, are Empty, insubstantial, impermanent. From an Occidental perspective, only God is Ultimately Real, and everything is an Idea in the Mind of God, including us. Whether an Idea in the Divine Mind is necessarily an Eternal Idea is the question. If so, we do have Eternal Life of a sort, using Christian terminology.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Icyus
KavitārkikasiṃHa



Registered: 11/07/13
Posts: 3,502
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Relativity made me mad.. psycadellics made see how mad I actually were..
-------------------- And thus begins the reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.
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quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
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cool post.. what about the aspects of self that are particular to a culture and language?.. they could surely never be eternal
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
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Re: self inquiry.. [Re: Icyus]
#19502609 - 01/31/14 06:20 PM (10 years, 24 days ago) |
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Icyus said: Relativity made me mad.. psycadellics made see how mad I actually were..
Well psychedelics sure haven't helped with your spelling or grammar!
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
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Re: self inquiry.. [Re: quinn]
#19502635 - 01/31/14 06:26 PM (10 years, 24 days ago) |
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quinn said: cool post.. what about the aspects of self that are particular to a culture and language?.. they could surely never be eternal
Nothing created can be eternal. Everything created has had innumerable 'efficient causes' since the Big Bang, but everything that issued from the Big Bang began in space-time. Eternity, like the Idea of God (according to Anselm), points to the Ineffable Mystery. Most people concern themselves exclusively with their favorite aspects of existence. Only philosophers of a certain mystical bent seem to be smitten with Eternity.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
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only humans can create imo and i see focus on it just as meaningful as eternity
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
Edited by quinn (01/31/14 07:50 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
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Re: self inquiry.. [Re: quinn]
#19504028 - 01/31/14 11:23 PM (10 years, 24 days ago) |
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quinn said: only humans can create imo and i see focus on it just as meaningful as eternity
I don't understand your statement, other creatures create their homes, from ant colonies to bird nests to beaver dams to the octopus's garden in the sea. Most people's "Atman Project" (Ken Wilber) is exactly as you say, the focus on family as a kind of surrogate immortality. Sometimes it's art or some endeavor that suggests that one will continue to exist in some individual, special way. Even if it takes 25,000 years or longer, the Great sandstone pyramid of Cheops will eventually return to sand. Eternity alone is Eternal. In Christianity they say 'God is king,' (which is to say, 'God rules!'), which as Islam says, "There is no God but God." But, in deference to your statement, the Buddhists insist 'Samsara IS Nirvana, Nirvana IS Samsara.' I prefer silence and apparently solitude (since I've always acted in such a way as to avoid drama - teenage, adult, familial - in my life). I live with an awareness of mortality in sharp juxtaposition with Eternity. It's a full-time job.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Icyus
KavitārkikasiṃHa



Registered: 11/07/13
Posts: 3,502
Loc: Inbetween.
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
Icyus said: Relativity made me mad.. psycadellics made see how mad I actually were..
Well psychedelics sure haven't helped with your spelling or grammar! 
My best an attemt, understanding I seek. I do not agree your rules, and thus I am a freak? Will you else riddle spoken I become? Nonsense for most, devine for some..
-------------------- And thus begins the reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.
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quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
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im not exactly sure what you are referring to but yeh, the atman project of art and family seems legit to me... and i think any attempts to achieve immortality thru them are useless, just it is useless to seek immortality thru study of the eternal or mysticism. to be a family for its own sake or create art for its sake is just as good as being a mystic imo, so i'd agree with the buddhists.
and altho animals create things i wouldnt say it is in the same way as humans do through culture, language, insight and intent. i think expressing yourself thru em is a very worthy endeavor.
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
Edited by quinn (02/01/14 06:32 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,761
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Re: self inquiry.. [Re: quinn]
#19504932 - 02/01/14 07:08 AM (10 years, 23 days ago) |
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quinn said:
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redgreenvines said: What do you mean by self inquiry? A questioning nature should be cultivated, without blind spots for sure.
my definition of self inquiry in the op is reflecting back on yourself and thinking about your intentions, subconscious motivations, influences of your surroundings on your behavior etc
it gives me a headache too tbh
maybe this is an idea that someone else gave you when they wanted you to get a headache. (here take this screw and grind it into your forehead and you will get smart)
that is of the nature of self flagellation and hairshirts.
still it is valuable to be aware of mental contents, and their origins, and to be aware of mental state, and what is suitable in each mental state.
that said, the issue of the origins of mental contents can get bogged down very quickly, so this part of it requires a method that you can handle.
maybe the topic should be "methods of understanding the origins of mental contents" the rest is basic awareness.
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Who is it that thinks is a good way too I think
then I will know that some thoughts I should not associate with and others are just right for the purpose
some thoughts are ment to benefit only myself some thoughts are ment to benefit both myself and others some thoughts are meaningless / a destruction to myself some thoughts are purely a cry from my nervous system/painbody some thoughts are just desires for instant relief some thoughts are negative towards others
if the thoughts make me happy, then it is usually myself that thinks them, so I must be doing something right since I am myself now, continue that
when you select this way you will suddenly only get happy thoughts/beneficial thoughts it will happen automatically without even thinking about it, when you identify the origin of the thought
observe thoughts, step back a little before answering
one can learn a lot about oneself that way
and I might as well cite Maharishi (cant spell it): true self is happiness, when you know that, it is easy to know when you are yourself both by your thoughts and actions
continue doing that what brings happiness, stop doing what brings unhappiness
the other one, which most people know is Who am I?
but Markos just said the "who is it that thinks", in a bit different way above :-)
*** anyone interested in the topic, "who is it that thinks" should read eckhart tolle, the power of now if they haven't already, cheap book but it explains that very well I think not my thoughts, not my painbody .. just step back, chose what benefits
Edited by lessismore (02/01/14 08:01 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,761
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the koan "who am I" helps to put a person into an examination of mental contents, which is a good step.
the attributes of good or bad, or internally (promted) or externally (prompted), are reasonable, but secondary to seeing the shifting contents: by that, I mean, the considerations of these attributes are additional mental contents.
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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yeah I see what you mean
it will add additional thoughts initially, but you might find out the origin of the thoughts
I often like to observe my thoughts in nature, but it has become instinct much of the time by now mainly because I don't feel attached to my thoughts anymore, they are not me I just chose which ones obviously benefit without assigning god or bad :-)
eckhart tolle has a good viewpoint on this I think
it basically becomes 'knowing your thoughts' after a while I think you feel at home in your thoughts, certain thoughts become pointless i.e. trying to be better than others, when others are you
you see your thoughts, if that makes sense, but it is all automatic there is no time to think, when you have identified the origin of thoughts just once
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