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Aleon
The Power of Our Origins



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 1,127
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: cmspice]
#19451591 - 01/21/14 06:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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-------------------- Mushroom medicines available at: www.swordandshieldwellness.com
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forrest



Registered: 11/16/12
Posts: 1,011
Loc: The Netherlands
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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: Aleon]
#19452441 - 01/21/14 11:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think ph buffering is never a real requirement for a substrate, and here you want to create a pH swing, so a buffer is the last you'd want...
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cmspice
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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: forrest]
#19453413 - 01/21/14 03:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
forrest said: I think ph buffering is never a real requirement for a substrate, and here you want to create a pH swing, so a buffer is the last you'd want...
Ok yeah, that makes a lot more sense. So if I'm understanding this... Hydrated Lime is used for making a ph swing. Calcium carbonate is added to create a ph buffer. Gypsum is added to improve physical properties of substrate (and does not effect ph). Finally hydrated lime will decompose into calcium carbonate and also helps swing the ph. Is this correct?
-------------------- have: blue, brown, pink, yellow, elm, king oyster, reishi, nameko, black poplar, shaggy mane, PESA want: ABM, ganoderma spp., straw mushroom, exotic pleurotus species, ethno cuttings/seeds.
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forrest



Registered: 11/16/12
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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: cmspice]
#19457349 - 01/22/14 12:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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yeah pretty much i'm not sure how fast the conversion of hydrated lime to calcium carbonate is, it might be really slow, and the main reason for the dropping of ph after adding it to a substrate might be by acids secreted by the fungi or bacteria. and gypsum is also a ph buffer (if i'm not mistaken)
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CAP_TURTLE
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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: forrest]
#19459208 - 01/22/14 06:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think just the overall ph of the straw or sawdust does it. Since we only do about 60 percent water to bring it to capacity, the other 40 percent is of a lower ph. Or at least that is my way of thinking.
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forrest



Registered: 11/16/12
Posts: 1,011
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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: CAP_TURTLE]
#19460481 - 01/23/14 12:02 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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do you have a source of straw or sawdust neutralizing an alkaline solution? pH is only applicable to liquid, but you mean the straw or sawdust release acids into the water?
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CAP_TURTLE
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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: forrest]
#19465424 - 01/23/14 11:20 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I probably didn't word it correctly. But the ph of the tea or whatever you would call it of whatever in the straw leeches into the lime bath. I'm still unsure how to word it lol. I just know that when I create a lime bath and get it to 12 it drops to 10 or maybe lower after soaking the straw in it. Not sure what in the straw does it but I'd guess it'd do similar with the sawdust. I'm just guessing though since when I've used it with sawdust I just add the proper amount of lime to the water to reach capacity. With straw I just make a bath and do multiple batches of straw and have to add more lime each time even with the same amount of water to achieve the same ph. On the subject arent there testers to test the ph of soil? Or I thought you could test the ph of a non liquid by adding equal amounts of the non liquid and water which should be 7 but usually isn't then taking the mean value of the two? If not I shoudl probalby quit posting this late lol
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forrest



Registered: 11/16/12
Posts: 1,011
Loc: The Netherlands
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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: CAP_TURTLE]
#19465506 - 01/23/14 11:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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interesting about having to add lime after a straw-soak, and good to know, i'm gonna lime-pasteurize some this weekend.
i think you're right, after a search it seems pH can be applicable to solids.... i'm not sure anymore...
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forrest



Registered: 11/16/12
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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: forrest]
#19465544 - 01/23/14 11:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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do people ever supplement sawdust with hpoo? like mixing hpoo in the limewater before adding it to the sawdust
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t3chnobily
Strangest


Registered: 02/04/12
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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: forrest]
#19466390 - 01/24/14 07:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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yes manures are used at supplements for straw logs. Mostly chicken in commercial operations.
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chefinainteasy
Chef



Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 1,361
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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: t3chnobily]
#19479042 - 01/26/14 09:32 PM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
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Ok so in keeping in line more with the OP's parameters I have done a little project to test the limits of supplementation with this process. I have used composted chicken manure, soybean meal, cotton seed meal, and corn gluten for supplementation's in this experiment. I made 4 bags with each supplement at 5%,10%,15%, and 20% dry weight to total dry weight of the substrate. I used a ratio of 40% dry weight to 60% lime water in this experiment. Well, kind of. After I did the first two batches with this ratio I began to think the water levels too high so I cut them back to 55% water to 45% dry. But still kept the dry ratio of supplementation the same.
Here is the basic recipe I used:
1L H2O= 1000g( slightly over but used 1000) 1L H2O to 2g hydrated lime
Each bags make up totals at 2300g 920g Dry(40%) to 1380g water(60%)
5% Supplementation
46g Supplement 4.6g Gypsum(.5% total dry weight) 2.76g Lime(.002g/1g h2o) 869.4g Oak pellets 1380g Water 212.5g Spawn
10% Supplementation
92g Supplement 4.6g Gypsum 2.76g Lime 820.64g Oak 1380g Water 212.5g Spawn
15% Supplementation
138g Supplement 4.6g Gypsum 2.76g Lime 774.64g Oak 1380g Water 212.5g Spawn
20% Supplementation
184g Supplement 4.6g Gypsum 2.76g Lime 728.64g Oak 1380g Water 212.5g Spawn
Now I came to a few realizations I all of this. First, check the Ph of your tap water before you assume any lime to water ratio. My starting ph of warm tap is 10.2(+/-). I know my area is known for lots of lime in the water and I guess this is the result of that and treatment. So I used the 1000g to 2g ratio and came up with water having a ph of about 14.2-14.8

I still used this 14.6 water for all of my hydration based off of Aleons notes about additional amounts.
The spawn I used is about a year old, but a good commercially made Pohu. It seemed ok and had been refrigerated.
Here are some pics of the process.
  Top left= Soybean meal Top right= Cotton seed meal Bottom left= Corn gluten Bottom right= Chicken manure compost
 Dry ingredients portioned out
 Batch mixing Everything went into filter patch bags and was sealed. So now we wait. Im really in this to see how much we can push this with out contamination. I don't have a fruiting room set up so not sure how yields will come out but I may use my outdoor greenhouse to fruit. Ill keep posted.
-------------------- Check out my youtube videos. the Mushrooms Naturally series by chefinainteasy My new business is now on facebook at https://www.facebook.com/MushroomsNaturally?ref=hl
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cubenpete
Aminita good excuse



Registered: 03/13/12
Posts: 837
Loc: Kentucky
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Nice expierment Chefin.
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Aleon
The Power of Our Origins



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 1,127
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: cubenpete]
#19480152 - 01/27/14 05:51 AM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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Great work chef! When you say supplement in your recipes; did you mix all of them together or did you do a separate batch for each supplement?
-------------------- Mushroom medicines available at: www.swordandshieldwellness.com
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chefinainteasy
Chef



Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 1,361
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: Aleon]
#19480280 - 01/27/14 07:25 AM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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I did the different percentages for each supplement. So I made 16 bags total with the 4 supplements.
-------------------- Check out my youtube videos. the Mushrooms Naturally series by chefinainteasy My new business is now on facebook at https://www.facebook.com/MushroomsNaturally?ref=hl
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forrest



Registered: 11/16/12
Posts: 1,011
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
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Wow that's great! 
I made two bags of lime treated straw with hpoo this weekend, spawned with columbinus and ostreatus.
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chefinainteasy
Chef



Registered: 12/12/10
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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: forrest]
#19480545 - 01/27/14 09:37 AM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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I forgot to mention I did a control bag with just sawdust, lime, gypsum, and water with the same spawn ratio. This morning all bags were starting to jump off. So far so good. Ill be keeping track of speed of colonization as well as contamination. Inhave them incubating at 72F with the bags with the greater amount of supplement on the cooler parts to avoid heat buildup from supplement. The bags with the original ratio of water that I thought might be to wet are probably fine, just on the upper limit of hydration. I think the 55%/45% water to dry is a better ratio for these pellets.
-------------------- Check out my youtube videos. the Mushrooms Naturally series by chefinainteasy My new business is now on facebook at https://www.facebook.com/MushroomsNaturally?ref=hl
   MY Garden
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nerdinerdiness


Registered: 05/17/11
Posts: 82
Loc: PA
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: OICU812]
#19481246 - 01/27/14 01:03 PM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
OICU812 said: Thanks for the update Aleon. Although few will respond, many are watching and learning from these experiments. We are on the forefront of breaking new ground here and I for one am excited by the results!
I fall in this crowd. Hello everyone, I've been reading the forum for a while and am very interested and new to mushroom (medical and culinary) growing. The main idea of this thread is to not have to sterilize or pasteurize your bulk material correct?
And, if I'm new to growing mushrooms, would this 'lime-tek' be a good way to start? It seems really easy w/o the pressure cooker...
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chefinainteasy
Chef



Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 1,361
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
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Yes but you still need spawn. But if you buy spawn you can use this method.
-------------------- Check out my youtube videos. the Mushrooms Naturally series by chefinainteasy My new business is now on facebook at https://www.facebook.com/MushroomsNaturally?ref=hl
   MY Garden
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solarity
mm... my favourite food



Registered: 03/31/09
Posts: 1,590
Loc: UK
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Great work Chef! Looking forward to the results.
"hey ..who took the chicken manure? All I can find is this tray of gravy granules...."
-------------------- Commercial exotics farmer for 8 years - now sold up!
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Amanita virosa
botanist by day


Registered: 12/04/11
Posts: 2,458
Loc: north kakalacky
Last seen: 7 months, 11 days
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Quote:
chefinainteasy said: Ok so in keeping in line more with the OP's parameters I have done a little project to test the limits of supplementation with this process. I have used composted chicken manure, soybean meal, cotton seed meal, and corn gluten for supplementation's in this experiment. I made 4 bags with each supplement at 5%,10%,15%, and 20% dry weight to total dry weight of the substrate. I used a ratio of 40% dry weight to 60% lime water in this experiment. Well, kind of. After I did the first two batches with this ratio I began to think the water levels too high so I cut them back to 55% water to 45% dry. But still kept the dry ratio of supplementation the same.
Here is the basic recipe I used:
1L H2O= 1000g( slightly over but used 1000) 1L H2O to 2g hydrated lime
Each bags make up totals at 2300g 920g Dry(40%) to 1380g water(60%)
5% Supplementation
46g Supplement 4.6g Gypsum(.5% total dry weight) 2.76g Lime(.002g/1g h2o) 869.4g Oak pellets 1380g Water 212.5g Spawn
10% Supplementation
92g Supplement 4.6g Gypsum 2.76g Lime 820.64g Oak 1380g Water 212.5g Spawn
15% Supplementation
138g Supplement 4.6g Gypsum 2.76g Lime 774.64g Oak 1380g Water 212.5g Spawn
20% Supplementation
184g Supplement 4.6g Gypsum 2.76g Lime 728.64g Oak 1380g Water 212.5g Spawn
Now I came to a few realizations I all of this. First, check the Ph of your tap water before you assume any lime to water ratio. My starting ph of warm tap is 10.2(+/-). I know my area is known for lots of lime in the water and I guess this is the result of that and treatment. So I used the 1000g to 2g ratio and came up with water having a ph of about 14.2-14.8

I still used this 14.6 water for all of my hydration based off of Aleons notes about additional amounts.
The spawn I used is about a year old, but a good commercially made Pohu. It seemed ok and had been refrigerated.
Here are some pics of the process.
  Top left= Soybean meal Top right= Cotton seed meal Bottom left= Corn gluten Bottom right= Chicken manure compost
 Dry ingredients portioned out
 Batch mixing Everything went into filter patch bags and was sealed. So now we wait. Im really in this to see how much we can push this with out contamination. I don't have a fruiting room set up so not sure how yields will come out but I may use my outdoor greenhouse to fruit. Ill keep posted.
Buy some ph test strips and recalibrate your ph meter. I would be surprised if you water had ph that high.
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