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oxana
i am the fun guy

Registered: 12/14/08
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anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir
#19476626 - 01/26/14 12:41 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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so ive been experimenting with unpasteurized coir along bucket pasteruized coir. i havent recorded any notes up until this point but i feel im doing the same results wise.
my procedure has been to take a 5KG bale of coco coir and hydrate it with 8 gallons of warm water. i then take a fresh 39 gallon bag and dump in two gallons of hydrated coir, 2 quarts of coarse vermiculite, and 5 quart jars of fully colonized annual rye grass seed. i then inflate the bag and tye it shut and roll it around until its mixed well. after that i dump the sub into a 12 gallon tub with a liner and let it colonized.
i made the 11 unpasteurized tubs up on 1/21 and they finished on 1/25 i will add polyfil tonight. i have seen no contamination so far


i also made up quite a few pasteurized tubs a while before which are starting to fruit. i cant remember when i started them

id be interested to hear for others on their experiances, and it would be great if others could make up 10+ unpasteurized tubs and post your results on this thread, to compare to my results.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: oxana]
#19476639 - 01/26/14 12:43 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
it would be great if others could make up 10+ unpasteurized tubs and post your results on this thread

sometimes we cut corners but when we do we know we're doing it and taking a a risk. I wouldn't suggest anyone to follow along.
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oxana
i am the fun guy

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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: bodhisatta]
#19476661 - 01/26/14 12:48 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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it only takes a few hours and about $10 to make up 10 tubs i dont know what your problem is. you make this seem so very hard.
any ways this isnt about proving anything to you. im going to repeat this experiment 4 times in this thread to figure out if it will work for me. i will post honest results, stay tuned
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Pastywhyte
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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: bodhisatta]
#19476670 - 01/26/14 12:51 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Just sterilize the coir and verm. Here are a few of my results, though I have done many other tubs and trays this way as well.

Coir is difficult for the mycelium to digest unless pasteurized or sterilized and will not colonize as well nor utilize the nutes as well. The act of cooking it makes it way easier for it to digest and use. If proper pasteurization is a pain, sterilize it. Works just fine provided your sub is just coir verm and gypsum.
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forrest



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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19476683 - 01/26/14 12:54 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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where did you read that coir is better digestible for the fungus when pasteurised or sterilised? i never heard it before
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RiparianZoneJunky
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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19476700 - 01/26/14 12:58 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Actually, IMO, bucket tek is the same thing as not pasteurizing because bucket tek is half assed and doesn't result in proper pasteurization, if you try it with a sub that doesn't come practically sterile you will see what I mean. The only reason bucket tek and not pasteurizing properly works a good deal of the time is that coir, wood pellets and pet bedding wood shavings are all made under pretty high temps and come very close to sterile straight out of the package. I have had good luck half assing it with all of those substrates, but of course, you will still occasionally get trich if you get into the habit of not using proper pasteurization techniques.
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Pastywhyte
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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: forrest]
#19476706 - 01/26/14 01:01 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Something everybody seems to be missing here is that pasteurization and sterilization accomplish something besides killing off the bad guys. The heat 'cooks' the substrate, making the cellular material within easier for the mycelium to break down. This is why when people do no heat treatment at all with coir, they hardly ever reach full colonization.
It's damned hard for mold spores to germinate on coir. I've left wet coir doormats on my porch all year without mold. I've also had wet coir in a bucket for weeks without it molding. When one sterilizes coir either with a pressure cooker or boiling water, they effectively cook it so the mycelium can get a foothold. Since mold can't easily germinate on coir, this works. If you try it with horse manure or straw, you'll be lucky to get to first flush. RR
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/newreply.php?Cat=0&Board=2&Number=14037621&page=0&what=showflat&fpart=1&vc=1&q=1&replystamp=1390766297
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: The most common cause besides contaminated spawn is not properly pasteurizing the coir. Coir needs to be 'cooked' for the mycelium to digest it properly. If it's not broken down in the pasteurization process, colonization will be very slow. Hold it at 140F to 160F for 90 minutes. RR
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/newreply.php?Cat=0&Board=2&Number=13773977&page=0&what=showflat&fpart=1&vc=1&q=1&replystamp=1390766345
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Yes, I've said that before. It's sort of like how cooking food helps to release the nutrients within, making them easier to digest. Pasteurization also selects for the beneficial bacteria, which are heat resistant. RR
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11982586#11982586
There are a few hundred others that I just didn't feel like putting up but are there to look at if you want.
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Pastywhyte
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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: RiparianZoneJunky]
#19476743 - 01/26/14 01:06 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
RiparianZoneJunky said: Actually, IMO, bucket tek is the same thing as not pasteurizing because bucket tek is half assed and doesn't result in proper pasteurization, if you try it with a sub that doesn't come practically sterile you will see what I mean. The only reason bucket tek and not pasteurizing properly works a good deal of the time is that coir, wood pellets and pet bedding wood shavings are all made under pretty high temps and come very close to sterile straight out of the package. I have had good luck half assing it with all of those substrates, but of course, you will still occasionally get trich if you get into the habit of not using proper pasteurization techniques. 
Respectfully I must disagree. The reason that bucket tek works is because spores cannot germinate on coir. I now sterilize any sub that is comprised of simple coir, verm, and gypsum. Fact is that pasteurizing coir is kind of a waste IMO because there is pretty much little to no bacteria in it to start with, so keeping the temps low so as not to kill beneficial bacteria that was not there to begin with seems kinda redundant.
Hpoo, straw, coffee, worm castings should all be properly pasteurized. Molds can and will germinate on those with ease.
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oxana
i am the fun guy

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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19476787 - 01/26/14 01:15 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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the only reason ive decided to make this thread is to sort of see what kind of results can be had without pasterization. as far as i can tell their are no grow logs documenting this. im going to do 40 tubs and see what gives
its nice to quote Rodger rabbit but i prefer to try things myself and see if theirs any real world results to them. i didnt see any difference in adding chicken manure or gypsum to my subs and people swore that i would, so well have to see how this works out
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oxana
i am the fun guy

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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19476805 - 01/26/14 01:20 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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The most common cause besides contaminated spawn is not properly pasteurizing the coir. Coir needs to be 'cooked' for the mycelium to digest it properly. If it's not broken down in the pasteurization process, colonization will be very slow. Hold it at 140F to 160F for 90 minutes. RR
got to disagree with this one it colonized in the same amound of time for me as pasteurized.
from what i have heard when coir is compressed into bales they use a lot of heat and pressure. i wonder if this satisfactorily "cooks" the substrate.
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Pastywhyte
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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: oxana]
#19476811 - 01/26/14 01:21 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
oxana said: the only reason ive decided to make this thread is to sort of see what kind of results can be had without pasterization. as far as i can tell their are no grow logs documenting this. im going to do 40 tubs and see what gives
I believe its already been done. Saw a thread a while back on it. Regardless, if I was to do something like this, just to test the waters, I wouldn't do 40 tubs. That's a lot of eggs in one basket/tub. I would do a few small ones, and have a side by side going with different variables using an isolate. This would allow us to see any potential drawbacks associated with the myc not being able to fully utilize the nutes as the current theory now stands. If your just looking to see if you can achieve full colonization and see fruits, I am sure you will. I doubt it would contam unless your spawn was to blame.
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Pastywhyte
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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: oxana]
#19476824 - 01/26/14 01:23 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
oxana said:
from what i have heard when coir is compressed into bales they use a lot of heat and pressure. i wonder if this satisfactorily "cooks" the substrate.
Think it depends on the coir. Pet shop coir probably, but the stuff I see from the hydro shop is a lot looser and might not have had the same treatments. Giver a go and report back with your findings
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forrest



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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19476838 - 01/26/14 01:26 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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thanks for the info!
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oxana
i am the fun guy

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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19476840 - 01/26/14 01:26 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Quote:
oxana said: the only reason ive decided to make this thread is to sort of see what kind of results can be had without pasterization. as far as i can tell their are no grow logs documenting this. im going to do 40 tubs and see what gives
I believe its already been done. Saw a thread a while back on it. Regardless, if I was to do something like this, just to test the waters, I wouldn't do 40 tubs. That's a lot of eggs in one basket/tub. I would do a few small ones, and have a side by side going with different variables using an isolate. This would allow us to see any potential drawbacks associated with the myc not being able to fully utilize the nutes as the current theory now stands. If your just looking to see if you can achieve full colonization and see fruits, I am sure you will. I doubt it would contam unless your spawn was to blame.
im only running 25% of my tubs unpasterized at a time. im going to run 4 series of 10. and see what happens.
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Pastywhyte
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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: oxana]
#19476850 - 01/26/14 01:28 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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oxana
i am the fun guy

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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19476857 - 01/26/14 01:29 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Quote:
oxana said:
from what i have heard when coir is compressed into bales they use a lot of heat and pressure. i wonder if this satisfactorily "cooks" the substrate.
Think it depends on the coir. Pet shop coir probably, but the stuff I see from the hydro shop is a lot looser and might not have had the same treatments. Giver a go and report back with your findings 
i got mine straight from india. i got a whole pallet 2500#s use it for plants too. its the low salt 0.4EC variety ment for plants
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Pastywhyte
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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: oxana]
#19476943 - 01/26/14 01:47 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Then your probably not concerned with any loss or substandard yields Like I said giver a try and if you do a side by side with an isolate I'm sure lots of people will be quite interested in your results.
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wolf8312
Pennywise


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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasteurizing coir [Re: oxana]
#19477031 - 01/26/14 02:09 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Good luck OP I for one will be interested to see the results! 
I always use proper pasteurization for my coir, but next time I think I'm gonna try the bucket tek! Not ready for the lukewarm bucket tek just yet I'm afraid but I will keep an eye on your progress! Its good for the community that people try out things like this!
Coir and the whole bucket tek Vs pasteurization is a bit of a puzzler for me, as it's hard to see why it works so well for some and not for others!
My first 2 mono tubs went green after using what seemed/smelt like clean mycelium and glass jar pasteurization! Since then I have had 100 percent success with every tub and tray but I still cant really figure out what exactly went wrong with the first two, as procedure was pretty much the same! Granted I have improved but if anything during my first grows my sterile technique was much more anal and insane than it is today!
I always suspected dirty spawn but to be honest I think the reason for my success these days is not proper pasteurization or somehow cleaner spawn, but simply higher 1-1 spawn ratio's! I think what happened with the first two somehow was that the grains maybe dried out in uncolonized areas and after over two long weeks in the stale moist (condensation) confines of a mono tub green mold set in!
So maybe you could try out different spawn ratios as well!
-------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of."
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RiparianZoneJunky
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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: oxana]
#19477034 - 01/26/14 02:09 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
oxana said:
The most common cause besides contaminated spawn is not properly pasteurizing the coir. Coir needs to be 'cooked' for the mycelium to digest it properly. If it's not broken down in the pasteurization process, colonization will be very slow. Hold it at 140F to 160F for 90 minutes. RR
got to disagree with this one it colonized in the same amound of time for me as pasteurized.
from what i have heard when coir is compressed into bales they use a lot of heat and pressure. i wonder if this satisfactorily "cooks" the substrate.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying, coir and wood pellets can simply be hydrated and then used because the processes that make them in the factory result in a sterilized, cooked product. Doing your own pasteurization gives you piece of mind and can get rid of contams that may happen when you're mixing in gypsum or hydrating it.
However, anybody that really believes the bucket tek works for pasteurization and gets rid of contams, I dare you to use it on compost, straw pellets or any other "dirty" substrate that comes with a lot of foreign spores and sometimes come partially colonized with some kind of coprinoid mycelium. You are guaranteed to get contams if you don't use proper pasteurization with those substrates. The only reason the bucket tek "works" with coir and pellets is that neither of them need any kind of sterilization or pasteurization treatment because they are made at high temps and therefore come pre-sterilized. I grow a lot of edibles, woodlovers and secondary decomposers so I've seen how badly bucket tek fails with substrates that aren't just plain coir.
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YOmamaPr0
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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: RiparianZoneJunky]
#19478026 - 01/26/14 06:21 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Dudes going ham
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oxana
i am the fun guy

Registered: 12/14/08
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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: YOmamaPr0]
#19478612 - 01/26/14 07:50 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
YOmamaPr0 said: Dudes going ham 
im not sure i follow
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: oxana]
#19478798 - 01/26/14 08:36 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yeah, that's what I'm saying, coir and wood pellets can simply be hydrated and then used because the processes that make them in the factory result in a sterilized, cooked product. Doing your own pasteurization gives you piece of mind and can get rid of contams that may happen when you're mixing in gypsum or hydrating it.
What part of the process cooks coir?
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PocketRevolution
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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: Kizzle]
#19478883 - 01/26/14 08:55 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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For the OP:
Research is great and all, but 10 tubs? Seriously?
I did this research on a much smaller scale, using a couple jars of spawn I didn't really have much use for. What happened was my unpasteurized coir substrates colonized very rapidly, and then...didn't fruit. At all. Ever.
Good luck with those 10 tubs.
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oxana
i am the fun guy

Registered: 12/14/08
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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: PocketRevolution]
#19478922 - 01/26/14 09:05 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
PocketRevolution said: For the OP:
Research is great and all, but 10 tubs? Seriously?
I did this research on a much smaller scale, using a couple jars of spawn I didn't really have much use for. What happened was my unpasteurized coir substrates colonized very rapidly, and then...didn't fruit. At all. Ever.
Good luck with those 10 tubs.
i did ten tubs last time and didnt mark them and i didnt see any that didnt fruit
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: oxana]
#19479160 - 01/26/14 10:01 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
What part of the process cooks coir?
I've just been reading through some sites on how they process coir. I don't believe there's any kind of heat treatment. I doubt contamination would be an issue even with unpasteurized coir. I'd be more concerned with yield.
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RiparianZoneJunky
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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: Kizzle]
#19479293 - 01/26/14 10:34 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kizzle said:
Quote:
What part of the process cooks coir?
I've just been reading through some sites on how they process coir. I don't believe there's any kind of heat treatment. I doubt contamination would be an issue even with unpasteurized coir. I'd be more concerned with yield.
Yeah my mistake, it's the wood pellets that are heat treated. In any case, the bucket tek doesn't do much against contams if you try it with dirty substrates, coir is simply naturally contaminate resistant. That's interesting that cooking it increased yields, I've never tried doing it without proper pasteurization so I wouldn't know the difference.
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: RiparianZoneJunky]
#19479312 - 01/26/14 10:38 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yeah the heat treatment is supposed to increase yield by breaking down the substrate some, particularly with uncomposted substrates. I wouldn't be surprised if they colonized a little faster for the same reason. It's kind of counterintuitive at first but the more nutritious a substrate is to the mycelium the more slowly and thoroughly it colonizes it.
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RiparianZoneJunky
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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: Kizzle]
#19479353 - 01/26/14 10:46 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kizzle said: Yeah the heat treatment is supposed to increase yield by breaking down the substrate some, particularly with uncomposted substrates. I wouldn't be surprised if they colonized a little faster for the same reason. It's kind of counterintuitive at first but the more nutritious a substrate is to the mycelium the more slowly and thoroughly it colonizes it.
It makes sense given the fact that cubensis prefers to grow off fermented grass that has shot through the gut of a cow rather than having evolved specifically for breaking down coconut husks. I used to have unlimited free HPOO and that stuff had amazing yields on all sorts of species, I definitely am bummed that that connection dried up.
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


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Re: anyone else experimenting with not pasterizing coir [Re: RiparianZoneJunky]
#19479371 - 01/26/14 10:51 PM (10 years, 11 months ago) |
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I gotta say I'm very surprised at the yields coir gives, especially considering it's low biodegradability. In nature it supposedly takes 20 years to break down. I suspect the pasteurization is an important part of that.
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