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OfflineHuminuh
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HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long?
    #19473917 - 01/25/14 08:32 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I have mason jars filled with corn. I did all the right steps of soaking, simmering, filling and sterilizing. I injected with Cambodian and another strain ly something thai. It has been 3 weeks and they don't look right at all. The jars walls have a very thin layer of a light streaky film of white but its hardish to see without light but they haven't clumped yet. The spores were quite old i don't remember exactly it has been close to a year. A little bit less than that but is that the main problem? And any advice using corn would be helpfull

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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: Huminuh]
    #19473924 - 01/25/14 08:35 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huminuh said:
It has been 3 weeks and they don't look right at all. The jars walls have a very thin layer of a light streaky film of white but its hardish to see without light but they haven't clumped yet.




Doesn't sound good.  A picture is worth a thousand words.


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Offlinevikingsc
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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: Huminuh]
    #19473928 - 01/25/14 08:36 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

What's your lid setup? You getting decent gas exchange?

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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? *DELETED* [Re: vikingsc]
    #19473982 - 01/25/14 08:52 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by stevo

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OfflineQuexl
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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: stevo]
    #19474084 - 01/25/14 09:19 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Sounds like no gas exchange, and\or a bacterial bloom. Or bad spores.

My corn from MS syringes took 5-10 days to show myc.

Myc. is pretty hard to miss. I don't think you have what you want growing in your jars dude. :frown:


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OfflineHuminuh
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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: vikingsc]
    #19474086 - 01/25/14 09:19 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

No they have a layer of tin foil and a fully screwed plastic lid on it

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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: Huminuh]
    #19474095 - 01/25/14 09:21 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

so... how are you getting gas exchange?


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OfflineHuminuh
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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: kaptanoblivious]
    #19474100 - 01/25/14 09:23 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

None :frown: so can i still get air exchange and they will start they aren't contaminated or anything

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Offlinevikingsc
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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: Huminuh]
    #19474104 - 01/25/14 09:24 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huminuh said:
No they have a layer of tin foil and a fully screwed plastic lid on it



That's what I figured. You choked your myc to death. You need a proper lid setup. You're getting zero gas exchange.

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OfflineHuminuh
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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: vikingsc]
    #19474114 - 01/25/14 09:28 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Darn alright thanks for everyones help

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OfflineSgt. Pepper
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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: vikingsc]
    #19474126 - 01/25/14 09:29 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

We need pics!


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Offlinevikingsc
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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
    #19474146 - 01/25/14 09:36 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sgt. Pepper said:
We need pics!



There was zero gas exchange. We don't really need a pic to know that was the issue.

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OfflineDannyDGAF
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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: vikingsc]
    #19474150 - 01/25/14 09:38 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

:whathesaid:


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Offlinevikingsc
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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: vikingsc]
    #19474166 - 01/25/14 09:42 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

This is about what your jar lids should look like:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/12880657

I high temp silicone the Tyvek on rather than micropore tape it on.

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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: vikingsc]
    #19474169 - 01/25/14 09:43 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

vikingsc said:
Quote:

Sgt. Pepper said:
We need pics!



There was zero gas exchange. We don't really need a pic to know that was the issue.



I suppose, but what if it's just contamed. Don't jars without gas exchange at least show a little healthy growth before stalling? What if he finds a way to get that jar some ge and it just turns out to be bacteria anyways.


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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: Huminuh]
    #19474179 - 01/25/14 09:46 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huminuh said:
The jars walls have a very thin layer of a light streaky film of white but its hardish to see without light but they haven't clumped yet.



All the signs of zero gas exchange. That's why I asked about his lids.

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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: vikingsc]
    #19474189 - 01/25/14 09:47 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

vikingsc said:
Quote:

Huminuh said:
The jars walls have a very thin layer of a light streaky film of white but its hardish to see without light but they haven't clumped yet.



All the signs of zero gas exchange. That's why I asked about his lids.



Gotcha and I totally trust your knowledge, it just kinda reminded me of bacteria on agar.


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Invisiblestevo

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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? *DELETED* [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
    #19475411 - 01/26/14 06:12 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by stevo

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OfflineHuminuh
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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: stevo]
    #19476028 - 01/26/14 10:10 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

It isn't contaminated. Does the ziplock bag have closed in the tub? Or partially open?

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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: Huminuh]
    #19476053 - 01/26/14 10:19 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Or just switch out your lids with some lids with filtered gas exchange in a SAB.

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OfflineHuminuh
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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: vikingsc]
    #19476068 - 01/26/14 10:24 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

SAB?

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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: Huminuh]
    #19476078 - 01/26/14 10:28 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huminuh said:
SAB?



Still air box


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OfflineHuminuh
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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: Huminuh]
    #19476080 - 01/26/14 10:28 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

What is a SAB?

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OfflineHuminuh
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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
    #19476083 - 01/26/14 10:29 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Oh ok thanks

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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: Huminuh]
    #19476088 - 01/26/14 10:31 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, they're crazy easy to make. Just a sterilite tote and a couple arm holes. They're one of the most useful things ever in this hobby.


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Offlinevikingsc
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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
    #19476152 - 01/26/14 10:53 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sgt. Pepper said:
Quote:

Huminuh said:
SAB?



Still air box



Quote:

Sgt. Pepper said:
Yeah, they're crazy easy to make. Just a sterilite tote and a couple arm holes. They're one of the most useful things ever in this hobby.



:whathesaid:

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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
    #19476281 - 01/26/14 11:28 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sgt. Pepper said:
I suppose, but what if it's just contamed. Don't jars without gas exchange at least show a little healthy growth before stalling? What if he finds a way to get that jar some ge and it just turns out to be bacteria anyways.




Correct. You don't need GE until you actually have some mycelium breathing in there. Even then the air that was still present will keep the culture going for a while before it stalls. This is actually the premise behind the unmodifyed lids used for v tek grows. OP has a nice case of bacteria, probably due to dirty inoculate (ms syringes are almost never clean) and the notorious endospore count that popcorn has. If OP lives at a high elevation I would think that he would need to up his PC times to at least 2 hours or more. I couldn't get popcorn to work for me with less than that.

OP you have now discoverd why popcorn is the least desirable spawn. Try rye or WBS next time, you will be glad you did.

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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19476322 - 01/26/14 11:37 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Quote:

Sgt. Pepper said:
I suppose, but what if it's just contamed. Don't jars without gas exchange at least show a little healthy growth before stalling? What if he finds a way to get that jar some ge and it just turns out to be bacteria anyways.




Correct. You don't need GE until you actually have some mycelium breathing in there. Even then the air that was still present will keep the culture going for a while before it stalls. This is actually the premise behind the unmodifyed lids used for v tek grows. OP has a nice case of bacteria, probably due to dirty inoculate (ms syringes are almost never clean) and the notorious endospore count that popcorn has. If OP lives at a high elevation I would think that he would need to up his PC times to at least 2 hours or more. I couldn't get popcorn to work for me with less than that.

OP you have now discoverd why popcorn is the least desirable spawn. Try rye or WBS next time, you will be glad you did.



Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking. But isn't it a myth that you need to pc longer at higher altitudes? Think about it, the weight of the rocker builds the pc up to a specific psi until the force of the steam is greater than the force of the rocker. If I'm wrong feel free to correct me, but I don't see where the air pressure would play into it.


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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
    #19476372 - 01/26/14 11:48 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Because water boils at a lower temp at high elevation then the temp increase that the pressuer provides will be limited to that differential. Or something to that effect. I just got up, might be able to articulate my thoughts better after a few more cups of coffeee. Regardless, the extremely large grain size of corn is enough for me to think that higher pc times might be a good idea for anyone who wants a low number of nock points on a grain with an extremely high endospore count. Popcorn is good at the movies, not for mycology.

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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19476413 - 01/26/14 11:57 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
You don't need GE until you actually have some mycelium breathing in there. Even then the air that was still present will keep the culture going for a while before it stalls. This is actually the premise behind the unmodifyed lids used for v tek grows.



The v tek grows are also only 1/4 substrate and 3/4 airspace. That's why they can go without GE. A full jar of popcorn can't grow for long without GE.

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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19476421 - 01/26/14 11:59 AM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Because water boils at a lower temp at high elevation then the temp increase that the pressuer provides will be limited to that differential. Or something to that effect. I just got up, might be able to articulate my thoughts better after a few more cups of coffeee. Regardless, the extremely large grain size of corn is enough for me to think that higher pc times might be a good idea for anyone who wants a low number of nock points on a grain with an extremely high endospore count. Popcorn is good at the movies, not for mycology.



But wouldn't the outside pressure not matter since the pc forms it's own pressure and will always get to 15 psi because the weight forms the pressure, not the outside air pressure. It would make sense if the walls of the pc were flexible like a balloon, but since they're rigid I suppose I don't understand how the outside pressure would affect the pressure inside the pc. But I agree, corn is too starchy and dirty for mycological purposes, and if it is to be used it should be pc'd for a long time.


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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
    #19476432 - 01/26/14 12:01 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sgt. Pepper said:
Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Because water boils at a lower temp at high elevation then the temp increase that the pressuer provides will be limited to that differential. Or something to that effect. I just got up, might be able to articulate my thoughts better after a few more cups of coffeee. Regardless, the extremely large grain size of corn is enough for me to think that higher pc times might be a good idea for anyone who wants a low number of nock points on a grain with an extremely high endospore count. Popcorn is good at the movies, not for mycology.



But wouldn't the outside pressure not matter since the pc forms it's own pressure and will always get to 15 psi because the weight forms the pressure, not the outside air pressure. It would make sense if the walls of the pc were flexible like a balloon, but since they're rigid I suppose I don't understand how the outside pressure would affect the pressure inside the pc. But I agree, corn is too starchy and dirty for mycological purposes, and if it is to be used it should be pc'd for a long time.



The psi will be the same. the temp will be slightly lower. It only adds up to a few more minutes of PC time.

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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: vikingsc]
    #19476436 - 01/26/14 12:02 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Did the OP even have germination? Maybe I read his post wrong. Regardless,  bacteria and molds are not caused by 0 GE, but they do thrive in it. Therefore the bacteria needed to be introduced at some vector and unless that is fixed OP will continue tp grow contams regardless of whether he has proper GE or not.

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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: vikingsc]
    #19476453 - 01/26/14 12:04 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

But if the water is boiling and the pressure is at 15 psi then the water temps must be 250 degrees? Sorry guys, I'm really not trying to be argumentative, I just would like to understand so I can help people in the future if the question comes up.


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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19476460 - 01/26/14 12:05 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Did the OP even have germination? Maybe I read his post wrong. Regardless,  bacteria and molds are not caused by 0 GE, but they do thrive in it. Therefore the bacteria needed to be introduced at some vector and unless that is fixed OP will continue tp grow contams regardless of whether he has proper GE or not.



He had germination, but he had the common symptoms of lack of gas exchange. Weak clumpy myc.

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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19476476 - 01/26/14 12:08 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

I don't care if it only adds up to a few min or not. If you don't reach sterilization temps, you don't have sterile media. You might get away with it using WBS or even rye but, with a gigantic crappy spawn like popcorn your looking at fail.

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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
    #19476494 - 01/26/14 12:12 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sgt. Pepper said:
But if the water is boiling and the pressure is at 15 psi then the water temps must be 250 degrees? Sorry guys, I'm really not trying to be argumentative, I just would like to understand so I can help people in the future if the question comes up.




No it won't be because if the water is boiling at lets say 200 f instead of 212, then the pressure is not going to create as much heat, due to it being at a lower temp when it started to build up in the first place.

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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
    #19476500 - 01/26/14 12:12 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sgt. Pepper said:
But if the water is boiling and the pressure is at 15 psi then the water temps must be 250 degrees? Sorry guys, I'm really not trying to be argumentative, I just would like to understand so I can help people in the future if the question comes up.



http://www.hippressurecooking.com/pressure-cooking-times/
Not mycology related, but high altitude pc'ing related.

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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: vikingsc]
    #19476531 - 01/26/14 12:19 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Quote:

Sgt. Pepper said:
But if the water is boiling and the pressure is at 15 psi then the water temps must be 250 degrees? Sorry guys, I'm really not trying to be argumentative, I just would like to understand so I can help people in the future if the question comes up.




No it won't be because if the water is boiling at lets say 200 f instead of 212, then the pressure is not going to create as much heat, due to it being at a lower temp when it started to build up in the first place.



Quote:

vikingsc said:
Quote:

Sgt. Pepper said:
But if the water is boiling and the pressure is at 15 psi then the water temps must be 250 degrees? Sorry guys, I'm really not trying to be argumentative, I just would like to understand so I can help people in the future if the question comes up.



http://www.hippressurecooking.com/pressure-cooking-times/
Not mycology related, but high altitude pc'ing related.



Gotcha, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for being patient with me!


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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
    #19476557 - 01/26/14 12:25 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Does your myc look anything like this?
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19456750/page/1

This is what myc with zero gas exchange looks like. Weak, clumpy myc. A full jar of popcorn needs GE.

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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: vikingsc]
    #19476637 - 01/26/14 12:43 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

vikingsc said:
Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Did the OP even have germination? Maybe I read his post wrong. Regardless,  bacteria and molds are not caused by 0 GE, but they do thrive in it. Therefore the bacteria needed to be introduced at some vector and unless that is fixed OP will continue tp grow contams regardless of whether he has proper GE or not.



He had germination, but he had the common symptoms of lack of gas exchange. Weak clumpy myc.





Quote:

Huminuh said:
The jars walls have a very thin layer of a light streaky film of white but its hardish to see without light but they haven't clumped yet. The spores were quite old i don't remember exactly it has been close to a year.




Does not sound like he had germination at all in the OP. As for that link you posted it seems like you were the only one with the GE diagnosis. Too me they looked bacterial indicated by the hard leading edge and the weak growth elsewhere which looked yeasty to my eyes. Like I said before, bacteria is not caused by lack of GE, but will thrive in it. The bacteria needs to be introduced by something, either contamed inoculate or germinating endospores.

If you want to see what a clean culture that is stalled looks like refer to the PP5 containers in this pic.



There were no contams present, and as soon as GE was reestablished they finished colonizing.

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Invisiblestevo

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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? *DELETED* [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19476691 - 01/26/14 12:56 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

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Invisiblestevo

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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? *DELETED* [Re: stevo]
    #19476696 - 01/26/14 12:57 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: HELP!!! Jars of corn not growing right/taking to long? [Re: stevo]
    #19476773 - 01/26/14 01:12 PM (10 years, 11 months ago)

No. The whole concept of v tek is that there is not much myc breathing in the container to begin with. I made the mistake of not taking into account how much they would get filled when I G2G them. It would be far better to not have them stall period. All in all my v tek experience thus far has been rather frustrating. For me bulk was much easier. Gonna still keep trying the v tek tho, I think it has good potential for exotics.

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