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Offlineimachavel
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Re: It is no harder to transcend poverty today than 20 years ago [Re: RiderOnTheStorm]
    #19463044 - 01/23/14 03:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RiderOnTheStorm said:
NY Times - Upward Mobility Has Not Declined

Quote:

The odds of moving up — or down — the income ladder in the United States have not changed appreciably in the last 20 years, according to a large new academic study that contradicts politicians in both parties who have claimed that income mobility is falling.

Both President Obama and leading Republicans, like Representative Paul Ryan, have argued recently that the odds of climbing the income ladder are lower today than in previous decades. The new study, based on tens of millions of anonymous tax records, finds that the mobility rate has held largely steady in recent decades, although it remains lower than in Canada and in much of Western Europe, where the odds of escaping poverty are higher.

Raj Chetty, a professor of economics at Harvard and one of the authors, said in an interview that he and his colleagues still believed that a lack of mobility was a significant problem in the United States. Despite less discrimination of various kinds and a larger safety net than in previous decades, the odds of escaping the station of one’s birth are no higher today than they were decades ago.

The results suggested that other forces — including sharply rising incomes at the top of the ladder, which allows well-off families to invest far more in their children — were holding back talented people, the authors said.

“The level of opportunity is alarming, even though it’s stable over time,” said Emmanuel Saez, another author and a professor at the University of California, Berkeley. Mr. Saez and Mr. Chetty are both recent winners of an award for the top academic economist under the age of 40.

The study has the potential to alter the way Mr. Obama and other public figures talk about mobility trends.

“The facts themselves are pretty unassailable,” said David Autor, an economist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who has read the paper, which the authors will soon submit to an academic journal. “How you want to interpret them is the question.”

The study found, for instance, that about 8 percent of children born in the early 1980s who grew up in families in the bottom fifth of the income distribution managed to reach the top fifth for their age group today. The rate was nearly identical for children born a decade earlier.

Among children born into the middle fifth of the income distribution, about 20 percent climbed into the top fifth as adults, also largely unchanged over the last decade.

To compare their results to those for earlier decades, the authors noted that a previous study of children born from 1952 to 1975 — by Chul-In Lee and Gary Solon — found broadly similar and steady levels of mobility. Taken together, the studies suggest that rates of intergenerational mobility appeared to have held roughly steady over the last half-century, Mr. Chetty said.

Another earlier study — of the late 19th century, by Joseph P. Ferrie — suggested that mobility was higher then in the United States than in England, Mr. Autor noted. Sometime after the 1920s, though, social mobility in the United States appeared to have declined, the Ferrie study found.

Today, the odds of escaping poverty appear to be only about half as high in the United States as in the most mobile countries like Denmark, Mr. Saez said.

The new study is based on a much larger data set than previous work. The earlier papers had to rely on surveys, while the latest paper examines the tax records, stripped of identifying details, of nearly every American born in a given year.

Article continues in the link above.




This is not much of a surprise to me, but I know it will be to many. 8% of the poorest children make it to the top income levels for their age, and 20% of mid income families make it to the top.

What do you think separates that 8% who rise from the bottom to the top, from the rest?

My money is on determination and learning valuable skills. I wish the article also cited the percentage of the bottom fifth who rise to the middle.




This is bullshit. How can you argue that upwards mobility hasn't declined when there is a 7% national unemployment rate? :facepalm: complete fail argument from an article that doesn't have much to prove it's thesis anyway, that article was almost entirely opinion based.

Where is qman to quote all his facts about a very low rate of economic growth percentage compared to population and GDP he is always droning on about how the recessive behaviour of this country barely declined that true successive growth is barely measurable compared to population growth

If you are questioning if there are tons of jobs out there that people can go and work hard at, well no one is arguing that. That is not the same thing as upwards mobility


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OfflineKremrBigSikter
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Re: It is no harder to transcend poverty today than 20 years ago [Re: imachavel]
    #19463055 - 01/23/14 03:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Why don't those 7% get off their lazy asses and start a social network or become a defense contractor or find an oil well or something?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: It is no harder to transcend poverty today than 20 years ago [Re: imachavel]
    #19463071 - 01/23/14 03:11 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The unemployment rate is much higher than that. 

He can argue that because the facts clearly show it, your disastrous situation notwithstanding.  Income mobility has been steady for almost a half century.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: It is no harder to transcend poverty today than 20 years ago [Re: DebuteMachine]
    #19463090 - 01/23/14 03:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DebuteMachine said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Work ethic levels the playing field life isn't fair but for those who go above and beyond what they are required to do they get rewarded.




:archiebunker:




:lolwut:

yeah..... every time. Especially dishwashers if they go above and beyond and wash 4 times the dishes in the the time they are expected they are rewarded well

:facepalm:

:laugh2:


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: It is no harder to transcend poverty today than 20 years ago [Re: imachavel]
    #19463108 - 01/23/14 03:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

DebuteMachine said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Work ethic levels the playing field life isn't fair but for those who go above and beyond what they are required to do they get rewarded.




:archiebunker:




:lolwut:

yeah..... every time. Especially dishwashers if they go above and beyond and wash 4 times the dishes in the the time they are expected they are rewarded well

:facepalm:

:laugh2:



Well there is also the fact that anyone can wash dishes and the skill level is low so the pay is low. I know for a fact that dishwashers do in fact work there way up to chef or find other occupations updating your skillset is just as important as having a good work ethic.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: It is no harder to transcend poverty today than 20 years ago [Re: KremrBigSikter]
    #19463138 - 01/23/14 03:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

KremrBigSikter said:
Why don't those 7% get off their lazy asses and start a social network or become a defense contractor or find an oil well or something?




:stoned:

yeah











































































it's about time to find some oil, quit being a lazy labourer cleaning restaurant kitchens


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: It is no harder to transcend poverty today than 20 years ago [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19463150 - 01/23/14 03:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

DebuteMachine said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Work ethic levels the playing field life isn't fair but for those who go above and beyond what they are required to do they get rewarded.




:archiebunker:




:lolwut:

yeah..... every time. Especially dishwashers if they go above and beyond and wash 4 times the dishes in the the time they are expected they are rewarded well

:facepalm:

:laugh2:



Well there is also the fact that anyone can wash dishes and the skill level is low so the pay is low. I know for a fact that dishwashers do in fact work there way up to chef or find other occupations updating your skillset is just as important as having a good work ethic.




You know what else is a low skill level that anyone can participate in? Giving food to people walking down the street that no one has ever met before. Good thing no one gets paid for that shit, these days you have to prove you are the best at something to make a decent living, imagine if generosity was a job, everyone would be broke












































































oh wait that's already true. I guess hard work and skill don't equal the same thing


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: It is no harder to transcend poverty today than 20 years ago [Re: imachavel]
    #19463153 - 01/23/14 03:27 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

They go hand in hand


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InvisibleA Day InThe Life
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Re: It is no harder to transcend poverty today than 20 years ago [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19463222 - 01/23/14 03:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

DebuteMachine said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Work ethic levels the playing field life isn't fair but for those who go above and beyond what they are required to do they get rewarded.




:archiebunker:




:lolwut:

yeah..... every time. Especially dishwashers if they go above and beyond and wash 4 times the dishes in the the time they are expected they are rewarded well

:facepalm:

:laugh2:



Well there is also the fact that anyone can wash dishes and the skill level is low so the pay is low. I know for a fact that dishwashers do in fact work there way up to chef or find other occupations updating your skillset is just as important as having a good work ethic.




What I've learned from working various minimum wage jobs (at larger companies/franchises) is that they normally don't give a fuck how well you did your job, they just want it done and in a decent time.. you could just do some shitty half assed job and they literally don't give a fuck as long as it got done.

Now I work in a union and hard work ethic gets you nowhere, it's all about putting your time in and waiting in line till there's a better paying/fulltime position. but I guess this is where the difference between just coasting or spinning your wheels and actually having direction and drive comes in. I don't plan on settling at this job or any one like the ones I've worked, cause I don't see someone getting anywhere anytime soon at them.

To be honest, they're just that; jobs, not careers. I'm not even sure if I want a proper career either mind you, although I'd ideally like to get credentials and skills for a profession that I could take with me anywhere and find work.  I hate the idea of being tied down to some shitty dead end union job and a mortgage.


Edited by A Day InThe Life (01/23/14 08:49 PM)


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: It is no harder to transcend poverty today than 20 years ago [Re: RiderOnTheStorm]
    #19463263 - 01/23/14 03:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RiderOnTheStorm said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
The question, why is it harder in the US than in Canada and the EU?




That is a very good question. I would imagine that the much larger population and land mass of the US has something to do with it, but that is just a guess.

Education probably does as well but I don't know enough about the European and Canadian educational systems to say for sure.




Actually, no it isn't a good question. It was an obvious sarcastic question. It is extremely evident as to why it is harder is the US.


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Offlinempd
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Re: It is no harder to transcend poverty today than 20 years ago [Re: Citizen X] * 1
    #19463283 - 01/23/14 03:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Citizen X said:
I guess everything's fine then! We're not all rich because we're lazy.. Everybody who busts their ass everyday I'm sure will agree?




The operative word here being "lazy".


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There is no truer calling for mankind than that of true conservatism.


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InvisibleCosmic_Flame
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Re: It is no harder to transcend poverty today than 20 years ago [Re: mpd]
    #19463296 - 01/23/14 04:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Our education system here in the U.S. is so bad :thumbdown:


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Pull the blinds and change their minds....


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InvisibleAdden
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Re: It is no harder to transcend poverty today than 20 years ago [Re: Cosmic_Flame]
    #19463389 - 01/23/14 04:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Okay, I thought this was a Pub troll thread just to get zappaisgod to post or Pris, lol.

Does anyone here remember 1994? There's no way the USA today is just as good as it was then for social mobility. I'm sorry, but lol.


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OfflineEnvix
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Re: It is no harder to transcend poverty today than 20 years ago [Re: Adden]
    #19463479 - 01/23/14 04:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

i'm sorry, did you just say that social mobility was easier in 1994 than it is today?

define social mobility please?

because when i think "social mobility", i think of internet and smartphones and all this crap that we have that makes society more "mobile" than ever before in history

and hello nice to meet you. i'm from a different part of the world you live in


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: It is no harder to transcend poverty today than 20 years ago [Re: Envix]
    #19463779 - 01/23/14 05:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

did this thread die? I'd like a solid answer on why with extremely high unemployment that social mobility is higher now then in 1994. Is Envix suggestion a correct way of approaching the argument?


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: It is no harder to transcend poverty today than 20 years ago [Re: imachavel]
    #19463841 - 01/23/14 05:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

They are not related.


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InvisibleRiderOnTheStorm
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Re: It is no harder to transcend poverty today than 20 years ago [Re: imachavel]
    #19464834 - 01/23/14 09:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

RiderOnTheStorm said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
The question, why is it harder in the US than in Canada and the EU?




That is a very good question. I would imagine that the much larger population and land mass of the US has something to do with it, but that is just a guess.

Education probably does as well but I don't know enough about the European and Canadian educational systems to say for sure.




Actually, no it isn't a good question. It was an obvious sarcastic question. It is extremely evident as to why it is harder is the US.




Why don't you enlighten me then? Having never lived in Canadia or Europe, it only seems normal to me that you have to work hard to go from poverty to the highest income brackets.

Quote:

imachavel said:
This is bullshit. How can you argue that upwards mobility hasn't declined when there is a 7% national unemployment rate? :facepalm: complete fail argument from an article that doesn't have much to prove it's thesis anyway, that article was almost entirely opinion based.




Easy, the people who are currently unemployed belong to the group that would have remained in poverty whether they are currently employed or not; they are the unskilled laborers. The welfare and unemployment abusers. The losers.


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