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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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So Ive made beer a few times and was impressed by the results meaning the alcohol and carbonation of fermenting yeast but the flavor to me is always off I always get tannins when washing the malted grains even if just slightly, it drastically effects the flavor of the beer.
Now obviously besides the pain of washing beer grain at a perfect temperature between 155 and 165 f the point isnt just dissolving starches from grain but activating amylase enzyme which breaks down starches into sugars to ferment. BUT because I dont want to do a partial wash I was thinking of washing rolled oats basically steeping them in a grain bag to dissolve all the starch then pitching yeast after the wort has cooled but prior adding some hops and a little honey to boil all the flavors together. Why honey? I hear it contains a similar enzyme to amylase that breaks down starch perhaps from bee saliva? Then I wouldnt have to do a partial grain wash. Is this educated or not? I dont know much about honey but just need that enzyme to break down the starches in the rolled oats. Or perhaps ginger root? Doing a wash with rolled oats and ginger root should work, since for some reason ginger root contains amylase, Im wondering if ginger root would fuck up the flavor? Probably not after a lengthy fermentation Id imagine the flavors would all mix -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
Edited by imachavel (01/23/14 03:47 AM)
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Glass Blower Registered: 07/08/12 Posts: 5,288 Loc: Pee En Double You |
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I have been making meads and ciders and some of the meads I have made I used malt/hops that I mashed and sparged. The malt was crystal malt and I read that crystal malt does not have sufficeient sugars to ferment, but I had a shitload of honey since it was mead anyway. It turned out pretty good. I don't know if this helps you at but I thought I would post it anyway
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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Enlil's Official Story Registered: 10/31/04 Posts: 21,407 Loc: Building 7 |
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I don't think the honey will do what mashing of grain would. Of course it will ferment but just not break down the starches to sugar?
Maybe you just need to make a nice oatmeal stout and detail your procedures. Perhaps you can avoid those tannins with better techniques... -------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: crystal malt definitely has sufficient sugars to ferment, but they are in starch, so you have to sparge it to release the enzymes that break down the starches, which clearly you did ![]() I made some mead, and it came out good, but un carbonated for some reason. It was pretty simple and tasted like wine. I never made it again because it was too sweet it was sweeter then any wine I ever drank, but I have since used a little honey in all my beer fermentation’s considering it is good to start the yeast and also not to mention I read online about antibacterial properties honey has. Of course it's anti bacterial properties are due to the fact that it's dehydrated sugar and therefore can't ferment or become infected and decompose from other bacteria, which putting in water should remove these properties. HOWEVER, I read also it has other anti bacterial properties from enzymes in the bees stomachs when the beer is made, so the yeast basically gets a full feast on it un bothered when it's pitched and the honey is suspended in water. Of course if you use the water to sparge and it is above 155 f and even closer to 200 f when you use it to sparge, everything should be sanitized anyway -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: hopefully, and I'm going to grind up a ginger root and sparge it with the oatmeal as well, since online sources say it contains enzymes that will break down starches. I was just wondering if anyone else had done this. Well I'll do the experiment then come discuss if it works or not if you can sparge rolling oats with ginger root then pitch yeast and ferment the whole thing or if you are required to do a partial mash with 2 row malt barley or what not I'll go with 155 F but I probably can go ahead and just sparge as high as I want considering I'm not doing a grain wash and worrying about all the tannins. -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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Glass Blower Registered: 07/08/12 Posts: 5,288 Loc: Pee En Double You |
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Quote: I read on a brewing website, dont remember which on I read so many, that crystal malt toasted at 120 lovibond had no sugars to ferment because it was so toasted I will try to find the link I have made several meads and none of them have been sweet. I even make hard ciders that are not sweet. I do not know if it is because I use yeasts with high alcohol tolerance and it uses all the sugar available or what, but they are usually around 12-15% And they are always un-carbonated until bottling, you add 1/4 cup of honey per gallon right before bottling and the slight fermentation of the added sugar will carbonate it -------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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that's very cool, the mead I made was WAY too sweet. I probably used too much honey and not all of it could ferment since I used an ale beer top feeding yeast instead of a turbo yeast and beer yeasts can only survive in I think max 15% alcohol content
I'd like to know the ratio of honey to liquid you used. I don't like that turbo yeast though, it's great for fermenting the shit out of something and getting a strong alcohol content, but it smells and tastes like shit like a whole gallon full of yeasty dirty socks to me it's only good for making a strong mash that you plan to distill the alcohol out of, and although I did make a successful home distiller once funny enough that I got the idea from this thread on google: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/ I am by no means a master distiller. My concept was a little different I took a metal copper tube and a pressure cooker, put them together and distilled a lot of liquid out of the copper tube. Although the liquid did taste like a shit load of alcohol it still tasted too watery. I know of course to get 190 proof you are supposed to distill two or three times, and I didn't even try setting the current liquid I got out on fire. But none the less I hear there is an inch or so of methanol that comes out of the tube because methanol evaporates at an even lower temperature then ethanol, and eventually it just became kind of a pain in the ass and I realized distilling wasn't for me. Anyway sorry to change the subject I was just discussing different yeasts I've only used basic ale yeast like wyeast except not that brand because I don't like the liquid when I can use one yeast packet bag to pitch and ferment like 5 different batches, a lager yeast a bottom feeder and I ended up ruining that beer because I fermented it at 62 and lagers need colder temperature to ferment evenly, and one time the turbo yeast I used to make the mash I distilled later I suppose if you were really good at temperature and fermenting etc. you could take that turbo yeast and make a really good beer but to me I wouldn't be able to figure out flavor/temperature/ingredient ratio to get a good flavour from the turbo yeast it to me was just disgusting like a mountain of yeast fermenting roughly a gallon of sugars -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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Fight evil with funk Registered: 08/22/06 Posts: 2,082 Loc: Somewhere North Last seen: 1 year, 8 months |
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You don't need a turbo yeast for mead,most any wine yeast will do, but yeah, beer yeast isn't gonna get anywhere near even 15% unless it's some diesel, high tolerance stuff.
Your typical dry mead is around 12-13%, which takes about 2.5 lb honey / Gal. -------------------- Wildflower seed on the sand and stone, may the four winds blow you safely home Curriculum vapidum (dry herb vapes)
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LIFE CAPS Registered: 06/15/12 Posts: 5,318 Loc: Babylon |
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Crystal malt has plenty of sugars dude. they're literally baked onto the grains during the process. what you're thinking of tha it lacks is the enzymes to convert any starches in any other grains you may want to use. basically, the kilning process makes it void of enzymes but it definitely contains fermentable sugars.
The sweetness of mead is largely determinened by the yeast strain and its given attenuation tendencies. If you were to use champagne yeast, you'd have extremely dry, thin bodied high alcohol mead. If you were to use one like say, pasteur red, you'd have a reasonably sweet mead. Ginger will definitely alter the flavor of your oatmeal beer man, but I'm having trouble understanding how oats are giving you an issue with tannic flavors... I've used plenty of oats and never had a flavor I'd describe as tannic... just smooth, creamy, oaty...ect I like to argue that sparge temps aren't too critical. aside from the blatant fact that warm water rinses sugars marginally better than cold, and the temp raise to 170 will kill wild yeasts ect. hell, ive made raw ales never past 155 with full ice water sparge. (For curiosity's sake) and with probable luck, they all worked out... Also I wouldn't trust raw oats to be converted by either ginger or honey but I don't have much knowledge of their possible enzyme content. Personaly I'd recommend using 2, or 6 row barley to do the conversion. For a diagnosis of where exactly your tannic flavors are coming from, we'll need details on brew process, recipe, and anything else you feel would help pinpoint it. -------------------- spread love love is everything 2013 finds medicinal psilocybin tincture drops cannabis pics
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Glass Blower Registered: 07/08/12 Posts: 5,288 Loc: Pee En Double You |
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Quote: It sounds like you are implying that they add sugar to crystal malt? They don't. Quote: The original piece I read it in is no longer up but I found this: Quote: It does have fermentable sugars, just less -------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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LIFE CAPS Registered: 06/15/12 Posts: 5,318 Loc: Babylon |
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Nope definitely not implying that my man. its sugars from the very grain itself.
-------------------- spread love love is everything 2013 finds medicinal psilocybin tincture drops cannabis pics
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: I'll come up with details in the future. Maybe in a entirely separate thread. I appreciate the help, but mostly was just asking in this thread if anyone had knowledge about other things containing enzymes that break down starch into sugar besides malted grains. I heard someone once malted cannabis seeds and made a beer of it, but it wasn't extremely high quality beer, none the less it was better then absolute crap I do of course have some sources saying that a-amylase is within root ginger: http://homedistiller.org/forum/v although I have no idea why to be 100% honest, does root ginger need specific starches converted to sugar? Well I guess so, but then why does a root like ginger need that but a root like potato doesn't? -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
Edited by imachavel (01/23/14 05:44 PM)
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LIFE CAPS Registered: 06/15/12 Posts: 5,318 Loc: Babylon |
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Yeah its neat stuff. I'm not overly familiar with what else may have the enzymes.
I always thought it was cool to experiment with small amounts of barley and large adjuncts like whole pumpkins and things like that. I think ginger also contains some kind of either yeast or bacteria that can ferment certain sugars what are unfermentable by beer yeasts causing exploded or overcarbonated bottles over time. Brewing is so cool. right? -------------------- spread love love is everything 2013 finds medicinal psilocybin tincture drops cannabis pics
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Glass Blower Registered: 07/08/12 Posts: 5,288 Loc: Pee En Double You |
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Quote: ![]() It is fucking amazing, I love just sitting there watching the yeast fart out all that co2 and all the bubbles rising -------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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Enlil's Official Story Registered: 10/31/04 Posts: 21,407 Loc: Building 7 |
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Quote: Very cool to watch, BUT I cover the beer even during ferment as much as possible. Light is the enemy! Well one enemy. -------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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LIFE CAPS Registered: 06/15/12 Posts: 5,318 Loc: Babylon |
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Yup.
I remember my first batch and in hindsight I'm glad it came out so good. "Wow this tastes really good...I CANT BELIEVE THIS" Followed by " Wow its strong too, I got myself drunk with my own product, yesssss" So that first one inspired me but most future failures came from curiosity, like "hey I wonder how much real chocolate I could get away with" only to learn that 5 lbs was too much... I think most of my other personal flops were from beer souring bacteria allowed by low gravity ales in summer heat. still hitting the mark about 99% of the time tho even with the wild experimentation which hopefully will never end. -------------------- spread love love is everything 2013 finds medicinal psilocybin tincture drops cannabis pics
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: It IS so cool! But also very frusterating! It takes weeks of patience, but yeah it IS fascinating. I made wine in two weeks and while not the best wine in the world, it was VERY drinkable. Beer isnt necessarily hard to ferment, Ive gotten alcohol and carbonation a billion times, but very often with beer Ive fucked up the flavor a million times with sour grain tannins or other. Wine to me is MUCH easier, although aging drastically helps the flavor. But yes its ASTOUNDINGLY fascinating. One day when I rig up a good distiller and try out the turbo yeast again Ill give making liquor another shot and do up some moon shine -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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LIFE CAPS Registered: 06/15/12 Posts: 5,318 Loc: Babylon |
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Don't give up on the art of good beer my man. lots of help for you around brother
-------------------- spread love love is everything 2013 finds medicinal psilocybin tincture drops cannabis pics
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Glass Blower Registered: 07/08/12 Posts: 5,288 Loc: Pee En Double You |
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Quote: I keep it covered as well and take off the cover to watch it sometimes, only at night in dim lighting of course -------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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Enlil's Official Story Registered: 10/31/04 Posts: 21,407 Loc: Building 7 |
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Quote: Of course lol. -------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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We should start a "post your beer" thread then if my oatmeal beer comes out nice I'll definitely post photos. two days fermenting so far, and I have some washed barley beer I washed at 155 F that is at 8 days but I don't like how it's turning out I put it in a bottling keg so it has a spicket, which ok it is sealed the same way as the same keg without the spicket with an air tight seal on the top with an air lock so excess C02 can escape. I sampled a little with the spicket
Anyway maybe I'll visit the culinary and brewing section more often and post photos of what I've fermented maybe I'll try some wine etc. But thanks for the support and feedback -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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LIFE CAPS Registered: 06/15/12 Posts: 5,318 Loc: Babylon |
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You can't usually judge a beers real taste till its been in the bottle at last a few weeks.
I mean, its easy to try a good one early and be dissatisfied -------------------- spread love love is everything 2013 finds medicinal psilocybin tincture drops cannabis pics
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Glass Blower Registered: 07/08/12 Posts: 5,288 Loc: Pee En Double You |
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Quote: ![]() 8 days IMO is too soon too judge flavor -------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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Enlil's Official Story Registered: 10/31/04 Posts: 21,407 Loc: Building 7 |
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Quote: Sounds good. Maybe you can break down your recipe I hadn't realized you were actually brewing it. Thanks. -------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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meat popsicle Registered: 10/26/13 Posts: 1,039 Loc: Eastern Canadia Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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So, ginger isn't going to do anything for you. By soaking the crystal malt (and just FYI crystal malts come in anything from 10 L to 120 L meaning very light to very dark) you get all the flavours of the grain. To get sugars, as stated by others, you need to MASH not SPARGE with a malted barley like a 2 Row Base Malt. Mashing is the process of activating amylaze as you said and converting starches to sugar.
There are no enzymes that will work for you in ginger at the scale you need... but why search for something else to add... when you could just add a handful of malted 2 row to your oats and get all the enzymes you need? You are literally asking what you can soak you oats with... instead of malted barley. Wtf? Just use malted barley, that's what it's for - it's called diastatic power. Literally, heat like 10 litres of water up to 165 df, put a cheesclothe bag or a tied off T-shirt full of oatmeal and milled malted barley and turn heat off. Put the pot in your oven at 150 df and let it sit for an hour. Pull the T-shirt out and then add your fermentable sugar. This will be malt extract and/or honey or some other fermentable sugar. Do your boil, add bittering, flavour and aroma hops and then dilute with cold water into a carboy and pitch your yeast. When doing all grain brewing, you just add hot water to a large amount of base grains (2 row) and specialty grains and then rinse them. Then you boil. Really batch sparging is easy as pie. Dump a pot of 180 df water into your mash tun and drain away Adding honey adds fermentable sugars, soaking oats with ginger DEFINITELY does not as it is not malted and ginger doesn't have any diastatic power. This adds starch and protein and flavour but no sugar, and therefore no alcohol content to your oatmeal beer. Here is my tried and true recipe for a simple oatmeal or flaked barley stout from a brewing forum I frequent. This is the original thread and it has been brewed many many many times to great success. Here it is converted for you to do a partial MASH recipe (some changes due to it not being all grain): 4 lb Light Malt Extract (DRY) partial mash: .5 lb 2 row malted barley (milled) 2 lbs roasted barley (milled) 1 lb flaked oats Bitter with 2 oz East Kent Goldings or US Golding hops @ 60 minutes Ferment with US-05, Wyeast 1056 or White Labs 001 (they are all the same yeast)
-------------------- Cluster Headache sufferer? Cluster Busting Veil Tear GIF Flower Pot Grow GIF Mini Mono Tub GIFS "All mushrooms are edible, but some only once." -- Croatian Proverb Edited by urthtown (01/25/14 03:28 PM)
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BrauMeister Registered: 08/30/04 Posts: 3,262 Loc: International Tr Last seen: 5 years, 8 months |
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Lots of confusing stuff in this thread.
First of all it's important to understand the differences in sugars. Amylase enzymes not only convert starch into sugar, but also break higher chain sugars into lower chain sugars. Higher chain sugars are much harder for yeast to consume, so it tends to remain in the finished beer. Crystal malt contains higher chain sugars which are mostly unfermentable. So while it is true that crystal malt has sugars in it, they are going to sweeten the beer, instead of fermenting into alcohol. It is very likely the flavour problems with your beer are not related to your mashing temperature. You may want to look elsewhere for the cause of your flavour issues. If you are worried that your mash is not converting completely you can use iodine to check. Iodine will react with starch by turning black/blue. Just put a few drops of mash on a white plate, and add some iodine. This would be an unusual problem though, especially if you are using well modified base malt. Base malt is important because it has the most diastatic power(enzyme content). I doubt you will find a substitute ingredient that has more enzymatic power than brewers base malt. Oh and don't make a beer with 100% oats. You're just going to make a big undrinkable mess. -------------------- I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund Edited by Heffy (01/25/14 04:49 PM)
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part-time Ninja Registered: 08/17/06 Posts: 2,735 Loc: Loc:Loc:Loc:Loc: Last seen: 5 years, 2 months |
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So I don't have time to read this whole damn thread but I can help. Convertase AG300 is a full spectrum starch conversion enzyme you just add directly to the mash that will convert any and all starches into fermentable sugars.
http://bsgcraftbrewing.com/Enzym So there, one problem solved. Next, it's very unlikely that your previous homebrews have weird flavors from tannin extraction (it's possible, but so rare). Instead it's more likely that the strange off flavors are from less than ideal fermentations. Remember, you don't make beer. You make wort, the yeast makes beer, and the list of parameters that can cause a nonideal fermentation is enormous.
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: I tried using a new 2 row malt, and the problem is that I didn't realize I bought a grain that is used primarily for flavouring. It does have ferment able sugars and enzymes that break down sugars, but it releases a shit ton of tannins and therefore is not good to do an entire mash or even a sparge with. I was supposed to use a cup with 20 pounds of crystal malt, and man did I mess up I had 50 pounds and brewed at 145, 155, 165, 175 everything you can think of. The best I got it to taste I put the grains in a blender and blended them into powder, soaked them with the grain bag for an hour in cold water, then boiled the remaining wash with hops for 30 minutes, then transferred cooled and pitched the yeast.It came out the best by far, but still sucked. I corrected my recipe and went and got 20 pounds of crystal and added a cup of this other 2 row grain and have 5 gallons now fermenting. I agree a few days is too early to judge the flavor, but 5 days fermenting I took a taste and it's actually coming out not bad at all I'm not at all dissatisfied. I don't really bottle by the way, I just pour from the tap, I have a false bottom when I brew and filter quite a few times of course. Yeah I guess you could say the yeast isn't filtered but it hasn't really effected the flavour as far as I care so far. I just often have people come over and sometimes charge them $1 a beer. yeah I know charging people sucks if I drink for free, but if people come over and suck up all my time, eat the food in the fridge, smoke all my kush and gdp and diesel and what not, then hell yeah after a few free beers I'm going to start charging them ![]() hey better then $6 for a 16 ounce glass at the bar I wouldn't mind starting a bar, but definitely don't have the ability to produce hundreds of gallons of beer a month, the finance to lease a lot and put shit in to make it a bar, the knowledge of having a liquor license or paying for one etc. so far I'm just having fun but boy am I having fun in the short time since I've started brewing I've become obsessed with fermenting shit let's just say I've tried fermenting all types of shit some you wouldn't believe. I even made a guava juice wine one time, came out pretty foamy and carbonated and beer like, very thick for wine, and wasn't great warm. But chilled it actually wasn't half bad. Anyway a hobby is just that, something to take up your time and give you something useful to do besides going out and getting in trouble, sure has taken my mind off some shit though having this new hobby -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: Yeah if I do an oatmeal brew again, I'll just go ahead and buy the amylase enzymes. Not that I'm against a partial mash but really an oatmeal beer to me has it's own unique flavour and although most oatmeal beers are stouts, I'm very interested in differences in flavours without grain additions and basically just having a very creamy oatmeal type drink with almost all the sugars converted. I will admit oatmeal isn't necessarily fantastic for a beer on it's own, and sour hops pretty much ruin the beer. I'll try it again one day with an enzyme pack or perhaps a martial mash one way or another -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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meat popsicle Registered: 10/26/13 Posts: 1,039 Loc: Eastern Canadia Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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All oatmeal beer you have tasted are made using a barley mash. Oats make up a very small percentage of the grist, but all oatmeal beer is probably maximum 20% oatmeal by weight. Everything else is malted barley, I guarantee.
If you try it again, you could always get some whole oat groats and malt them yourself. I think the complexity of an all oatmeal beverage would be pretty low... -------------------- Cluster Headache sufferer? Cluster Busting Veil Tear GIF Flower Pot Grow GIF Mini Mono Tub GIFS "All mushrooms are edible, but some only once." -- Croatian Proverb Edited by urthtown (01/30/14 07:39 PM)
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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I think Id prefer to try rye flakes. I dont trust companies that mill and flake oatmeal Id imagine organic oatmeal flakes would be better and because of cost I think Ill try rye flaked first plus I think it goes along with the flavor of barley grain better.
Anyone ever made like 15 gallons of beer for a big party with over 100 people? Im just curious -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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meat popsicle Registered: 10/26/13 Posts: 1,039 Loc: Eastern Canadia Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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I brew large 10 gallon batches (double batches) all the time All Grain. Flaked rye is just an additive as well - it has a very spicy, grainy flavour that makes it less than ideal to use as a large percentage of the grist.... As to "going along with the flavour of barley grain better" that statement is untrue. Oats, rye and other starchy grains that can be added all bring their own flavours and proteins that change the final product.
Just remember: All unmalted grains need to be gelatinized and mashed in order to yield sugars for yeast to convert. I think you need to do some more research.... IMO the enzyme is a waste of time... if you want something decent and drinkable go learn how to actually mash a beer in and make it how it's been made for 10,000+ years instead of trying to reinvent the wheel for no good reason. It just like the hundreds of mushroom growers who come on here and try to share their new "tek" instead of just starting with what is known to work before experimenting. Learn the ropes - then go to town, but from your posts you have a lot of learning to do. -------------------- Cluster Headache sufferer? Cluster Busting Veil Tear GIF Flower Pot Grow GIF Mini Mono Tub GIFS "All mushrooms are edible, but some only once." -- Croatian Proverb
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Enlil's Official Story Registered: 10/31/04 Posts: 21,407 Loc: Building 7 |
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OP - If you grind your grain into flour, you surely will get more tannins from the husks. Can you get to a homebrew supply store that has a grinder? It's important not to grind too fine, yes it can improve efficiency but not at the cost of poor flavor. Having said that, the local used to be "craft" brewer now uses a hammer mill on their grain, then filters the mash. But that's horrible! Their main thing is the water usage and $$ savings there even more than the gain in grain efficiency.
Beer is not a "continuous" process. You need to be patient, let the batch ferment, then bottle it. Also I wonder just how good your sanitation can possibly be. For me anymore, if I have to open a carboy it's an event. Infections suck and I leave the beer alone as much as possible. Often the only check is final gravity at the time of bottling. That's it! Rye is great up to maybe 20% of the grain total, oatmeal maybe 10% of the grain total. Your problems with barley shouldn't be problems, that's what you need for 80% of your grain, roughly. If you think you have problems mashing now, try even a 50% rye recipe and you will have a gelatinous sticky mess on your hands. Anyway that's my thoughts for now, glad to have you onboard as a brewer. Get John Palmers book online it's free and lots of good information... -------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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What the hell are you talking about "reinventing the wheel"?
????? I said I did a mash at 155 F, and bought the wrong grains and so did an experiment to try and just extract sugars then boil them to get the enzymes to activate and with hops to get flavors. Maybe you didnt read a thing I wrote. I didnt say anything about "reinventing the wheel" I said I tried brewing with a new grain and got tons of tanniny flavors and couldnt figure out what I did wrong so I tried a little experiment to try and get different variables. I love how everything on this forum becomes a competition because I didnt give out gravity readings and fermentation times etc. Im not a beer geek and more of a newbie. Its like if I came in here and said "I made a pasta and substituted garlic with ginger" and get replies "from reading your cooking advice I can see you have a long way to go" Whatever ![]() In other replies I never considered starches would come out of the oatmeal without mashing the oatmeal and I only considered using enzymes because someone said the amylase could be bought and added. If its a bad idea to do it without doing a partial mash then fine Ill take that into consideration. Im going to try this again some other time, the oatmeal idea has kind of worn out on me for now, but in the future Ill try it again when I decide Im interested in a creamy beer I also dont recall saying rye flakes could be mashed by themselves, I believe I specifically said "a partial mash of rye flakes and grains" but maybe I imagined I said that -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
Edited by imachavel (01/31/14 11:41 AM)
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meat popsicle Registered: 10/26/13 Posts: 1,039 Loc: Eastern Canadia Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Sorry, I didn't mean to come off rude and I did read the whole thread. I just meant - if you want to make beer, get a recipe and a methodology down and do it. You were asking earlier about adding ginger for enzymes... and then wanting to make an all oatmeal beer... there are just reasons why these things aren't the best idea and the reasons are pretty accessible. And adding ginger as some kind of amylase replacement is "reinventing the wheel" and not for the better.
Just get yourself a good partial mash how-to and follow it with whatever recipe fits your taste profile. Brewing is amazing and wicked fun but takes getting to know a few base processes and the underlying principles before you can really play with things successfully. As mentioned before, off flavours are most likely produced by some inconsistency in the brewing process after making the wort rather than before ie. high fermentation temps, incorrect yeast choice, bacterial infection, etc. Bests to get a consistent process down and find some recipes you really like and get to know your system really well so you can bang out brews in a couple hours that taste better than anything you can buy at the store. -------------------- Cluster Headache sufferer? Cluster Busting Veil Tear GIF Flower Pot Grow GIF Mini Mono Tub GIFS "All mushrooms are edible, but some only once." -- Croatian Proverb
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Well as I said I used the wrong grain, in fact look at the grain for this recipe:
15.5 pounds 2-row malt 0.5 pounds Victory malt 0.5 pounds crystal 120L malt 1.25 ounces Columbus hops - 60 minutes 1.25 ounces Centennial hops - 30 minutes 2 ounces Simcoe hops 10 minutes 2 ounces Centennial hops - 10 minutes 4 ounces Simcoe hops - dry hop 2 ounces Centennial hops - dry hop 2 ounces Chinook hops - dry hop 4 liter starter of American yeast (White Labs WLP001 or Wyeast 1056) or 1.5 packages of dry American yeast. http://mobile.seriouseats.com/re this was the first all grain batch I tried to brew, unfortunately before I was getting beer supplies locally and incidentally much cheaper, I was calling this company in a different state from a number I found online. When I ordered 30 pounds of 2-row malt they sent me a bag but thought it was a supplemental ingredient, for example like rye is just flakes but not a primary ingredient they ended up sending me a grain you brew to flavour but not for the main fermenting sugars it was just for flavor. And so I didn't realize I was making an entire 5 gallons of beer(actually 15 gallons if you count all 3 failed attempts) with ingredients incorrectly measured. Anyway the new one I'm doing is only 4 days fermenting, really not enough time to get an idea if there is a good taste of the beer, it just tastes like really new unfinished beer. I made sure the wort was well aerated etc. but I do appreciate the advice about the oatmeal beer it should always be less then 20% of your ingredients. I was thinking a beer with 80% malted grains as the main ingredient in the mash along with 10% oatmeal flakes and 10% rye flakes would be great. I have strange beer taste, at least according to my friends. I prefer a beer moderate on hops not too many hops and very lightly dry hopped at that, but with a high grain count recipe for the recipe. Which I know if your beer is too sugary there will be too much yeast growth which will sour the beer if it ferments too fast, but so far this hasn't happened and I love a beer with lot's of flavour but not necessarily of it dependent on hops I do realize I'm new to fermenting beer but really love it it's like cooking to me but much more fun since cooking doesn't take weeks of patience to get the right amount of fermentation carbonation flavour etc. Anyway I always appreciate advice. I should have been less questionable about oatmeal beer and just more questionable about beer in general in terms of flavor differences in grains and hops etc. I know of course anything fermented below 60 F becomes a lager but you need a bottom feeding yeast. I tried one lager and just got too impatient I bottled it and put it in the fridge and opened them all after only two weeks and I could tell it was VERY EARLY in the fermentation process. So anyway I should be asking more general questions, for example most oatmeal beers are stouts. What is a stout exactly? What is a pilsner? Can a light beer be made with dark grains and can a dark beer be made with light grains? Etc. for example a light grain beer could be less diluted more grain to water ratio therefore putting more colour into the liquid. But oh well, anyway there was some good discussion and it seems some things are cleared up in case other people read this in the future. It seems making beer is easy, but making good beer is hard, as is the story with all alcohol beverages. But you know whatever it's always nice to discuss this stuff just to get the wheels turning -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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Enlil's Official Story Registered: 10/31/04 Posts: 21,407 Loc: Building 7 |
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The grains look OK but that hop amount is a lot for 5 gallons. Especially the dry hops. I might use a pound but 8 oz of dry hops? Maybe 1-2 oz per 5 gallons...
OK here's a great place to buy leaf hops, which I always suggest versus pellets. FoodSaver them after buying a pound into maybe some 2 oz and some 4 oz. packs and back into the foil and into the freezer. Vacuum packing them also shrinks them, the foil 1 lb bag keeps light off them and easy to identify. http://hopsdirect.com/leaf-hops- -------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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You learn something new every day, the ACTUAL leaf hops instead of processed. Now I'd IMAGINE the flavor to be much more fresh with leaf hops but wouldn't you get all these unwanted flavors such as chlorophyll?
I know so little about this stuff but that's cool I didn't know you could buy the unprocessed hops online without being a grower yourself. By some chance do you know a place I could order a 30 pound bag of grains instead of paying $40 paying like less then $20? I'd imagine if you could get a whole sale deal you could probably end up paying $15 for a 50 pound bag of grain but then you'd also most likely have to buy a large amount like no less then 500 pounds or something like that? Let me know
-------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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meat popsicle Registered: 10/26/13 Posts: 1,039 Loc: Eastern Canadia Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: Sounds like a nice malty American Pale Ale session beer. Quote: uh.... this makes no sense and is full of faulty info/assumptions. A beer has as much sugar content as you reasonably want to get back in alcohol content. A higher initial sugar content = a higher % alcohol. There are some non-fermentable sugars (example from mashing at a higher temperature to favour one amylase over another) or adding crystal malts to your mash. These leave you with a high final gravity and a malty sweetness that balances the bitterness from the hops and the alcohol. The more hops and alcohol, the more residual sugars you need (in theory) to get a balance. This is all within reason - you aren't going to get much higher than 13-14% alcohol before your yeast just quits leaving the rest of the sugar un-consumed. I've made several beer and mead that topped 13% alcohol by volume and I had to add a lot of pure sugar in addition to my barley malt to get it sweet enough. Sourness ONLY comes from bacterial infection. There's no such thing as "too much yeast growth". You want that shit to grow out aggressively and take over the entire wort - in fact this is what prevents other microbes from taking over. Sour beer are ALL produced by later adding a bacteria like Brettanomyces to a fermented wort and aged. There's also no worry of fermenting "too fast" unless it is because you have your fermenter hotter than recommended for the yeast you are using. This causes a whole host of phenols and esters (flavours like clove or banana spices, sharp pungent aromas and tastes and fruit-like flavours are all examples. Many many many styles of beer are fully malt dependant. Look at any of the scotch ales, looks at irish ales and in general most british session beer. Look at the stouts and the porters, the winter warmers - fuck look at belgian beer, almost all of them are yeast and malt focused with hops only to balance. There's thousands of variations on styles that are what you are describing. Quote: It's EXACTLY like cooking. This is what I love about it too, but think about it. When it says to rest your bread dough for it to rise - if you cut corners and bake it right away, the bread falls. If you are supposed to bake the pizza until the crust rises and cheese melts, don't take it out when things are still raw. This is why you need to give the time required when brewing, just like cooking only slightly longer time scales. But not really when you think about it. Cooking often takes weeks - sauerkrauts and ferments are all this way, hangar steaks, heck even slow cooker meals or a roast turkey take their time!! You brew, then forget about it. Leave it a month, then bottle or keg. Leave it a month, then chill and serve and you won't be wasting all your effort for green beer. Quote: No problem - just ask questions and don't ass-u-me, better to ask for help than to assume. Quote: Patience!!! Let it do it's thing lol And again, you are wrong there. Not all beer fermented cool are lagers and vice versa. A Cream ALE is an ale fermented with an ale yeast then lagered - or fermented/aged well below 60 df for a time. Similarily a Steam Beer is a beer done with a lager yeast fermented warm at ale temps. Lagers are generally not recommended unless you have some form of temperature control for your fermenting vessel. Otherwise expect a lot of clove and banana zing in everything you make from the hot fermentation esters. Quote: You want me to google for you lol? Here is the complete Beer Judge Certification Program Style Guidelines. There are 6 entries for stout and 3 for pilsner. Read them and your question will be answered. Quote: While the grain to water ratio does make some difference in colour (for example if you brew a strong beer with the first runnings from a mash, without diluting with a sparge the resulting beer will be darker than if you had sparged), you use dark specialty grains to make a dark beer. A dry stout for example could be as little as 10-15% Roast Barley by weight. The rest of the grains ARE light grains. Light grains are used in any beer, additions of small amounts of dark roasted grains make for dark beer. But they use the same light barley malt as a base for diastatic power (enzymes) and sugar (starch content). Quote: Untrue! While other forms of alcoholic beverage are difficult to make well - wine for example, you are restricted to the quality of a kit or buying expensive fresh fruit and machinery to press them or direct from a vineyard. Inevitably any wine or spirit produced at home will lack something of the actual producer's product. Their yeast, casks, their soil or solar exposure, the water with which they make their whisky. These factors all change the product. With beer - as long as I can get the process steps with details ie. temperature, volume, ratios, etc. and the same ingredients as the brewery I can make the EXACT same product that any brewery can. This is what makes home brewing the fucking bomb. ![]() You need to be patient and spend more time learning about brewing and less time assuming. The info is out here - just forget what you think you know and go learn a process that is tried and true and your results will be stellar. Brewing beer is by far the easiest means of producing the high quality homemade alcohol out there (and by extension meads, fruit ciders, peary, etc.). Keep at it - be patient and buy yourself a kegging setup if you get serious. ![]() I spend $15 per 5 gallon batch of beer using home grown hops and locally bought malt and yeast. It takes me 4.5 hours from startup to cleanup finished. I wait 4 weeks with the wort fermenting in a carboy and then spend 30 minutes racking into a keg. It sits 2 more weeks in my keg fridge and then pours like anything you could get at a craft beer pub anywhere in the world for about $0.21 per "bottle". -------------------- Cluster Headache sufferer? Cluster Busting Veil Tear GIF Flower Pot Grow GIF Mini Mono Tub GIFS "All mushrooms are edible, but some only once." -- Croatian Proverb Edited by urthtown (02/01/14 05:12 PM)
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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$15 for per 5 gallons huh? I'm spending 30, I'm not sure at what price you are getting your grains or yeast, but I definitely assume(yeah yeah ass-u-me I get it, it's a common word you'll have to deal with) that using your own hops makes the beer a lot cheaper. I hear they grow like pot a little bit, is this true?
![]() I only said too much yeast creates a sour flavor simply because I bought some turbo yeast to make a liquor mash and ferment it, that can withstand very high alcohol content, and someone told me "don't use that yeast it will produce too much alcohol and ruin the flavor of the beer," I guess "sour" isn't the word I should have used, but I got the impression that all the sugars would be completely eaten, not leaving ANY sweetness to the beer at all, not to mention I've fermented with that turbo yeast before, and smelled what I was fermenting, and it smelled like a combination of poison and socks you just take off at the gym, I sure wouldn't want to imagine using that for beer. As for the wine, I actually made wine, and it seemed much simpler to me, and didn't actually come out half bad. I didn't even have to worry about carbonation, and since I fermented it with a pressure lock, it was carbonated anyway. It wasn't a 4 year aged $50 bottle of wine or anything like that, but it definitely seemed simple. Of course I didn't grow the fruit myself in soil with a certain ph in a certain area and use only natural spring water to water rows and rows of fruit etc. I guess what I meant in terms of wine, is that for the long term fermenter, wine is harder, since it's a challenge, you need good fruit, a certain aging process etc. and of course beer is a shorter fermentation at 30 days and some people only ferment for 14 days etc. But in the short run wine can be as simple as throw some yeast in some fruit juice and get a drink with a wine taste and some alcohol in it if not far from perfection but beer itself at least takes some patience in learning brewing temperatures, correct ingredients, etc. Of course I suppose you can make beer with just an extract and mix in some water I guess the moral here is "it's easy to make alcoholic beverages, it's difficult to make very good alcoholic beverages, with little to no experience" And course beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I might make a beer I love that you hate, and vice versa. But anyway there is lot's of good stuff here, I appreciate the advice, and see you take this very seriously. I think it's different brewing a beer with a false bottom container and a filter and a tube to re filter the beer over and over again, with a precise thermometer and measuring gravity etc. etc. and then just mixing an extract, and there is a difference between buying some mango necter, throwing some yeast in it and putting a baloon on top and growing perfect grapes in a certain climate with certain soil and a certain ph and natural spring water to grow all the grapes and aging the wine in oak barrels for 3 years etc. ![]() ass-u-me
-------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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Enlil's Official Story Registered: 10/31/04 Posts: 21,407 Loc: Building 7 |
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Quote: You need to buy grains locally shipping will cost you more than the grain otherwise... -------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: Yes you avoid shipping costs. I was just wondering if anyone ever got whole sale deals of grain but never mind grain I guess by itself isn't too expensive mixed with the price of yeast and hops of course it's a bit more -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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Enlil's Official Story Registered: 10/31/04 Posts: 21,407 Loc: Building 7 |
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Quote: The bulk grains 2 row barley if you go domestic is under a buck a pound. Maybe even 70 cents a pound. For imported around a buck a pound. Comes in 50 lb. bags or 55 lb. bags. Worth buying that in bulk. Or pils malt. Something you will use up. -------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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part-time Ninja Registered: 08/17/06 Posts: 2,735 Loc: Loc:Loc:Loc:Loc: Last seen: 5 years, 2 months |
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Quote: Seriously go to your local micro/craft brewery and tell them you're a homebrewer. 99% of the time they're willing to sell you 20-30lbs of grain at cost. I literally crush and mash 4,000-8,000 lbs of pilsner malt every single day, a homebrewer needing 22lbs for his belgian tripel isn't going to affect us at all. Bonus points, at that purchase quantity, we only pay about 35 cents per pound. Quote: http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/s "Ingredients: Malted rye typically constitutes 50% or greater of the grist (some versions have 60-65% rye)." I can't believe you've never heard of roggenbier.
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: I never even thought about that. We have a few here. Plus as it is if I want to make a really strong Barley wine this guy will charge me over $40 for ingredients. And most of the time I bring him a recipe I find online, he gives me one of his recipes and says "try this." Its not that his beers are bad, but they are all very hop dependent and with gravitys around 6%. Not my style Plus he sometimes gives me different advice, for example he says some mashes should be done at 155 F, some at 152 F, and some at 148 F. Well thats not BAD advice, Im looking for something less general and more specific. Not to mention I dont want to buy grain bags but collanders with micro thin holes. A lot of what he gears towards are home brewers but even as a home brewer Id rather buy it cheap enough I can throw it out and go back and buy more. I dont want a very hoppy and malty beer I need to pay $60 for. Fair enough -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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meat popsicle Registered: 10/26/13 Posts: 1,039 Loc: Eastern Canadia Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: ...what? A higher mash temp (closer to 155) will result in a fuller bodied, maltier, sweeter final beer with a higher final gravity. Mashing lower will give you less body, more fermentable sugars and a drier final beer. He WAS giving you specific, and not general, advice... -------------------- Cluster Headache sufferer? Cluster Busting Veil Tear GIF Flower Pot Grow GIF Mini Mono Tub GIFS "All mushrooms are edible, but some only once." -- Croatian Proverb
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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He should have explained it the way you explained it then, he left out a lot of details. You just said it, way more specifically
Anyway nevermind -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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meat popsicle Registered: 10/26/13 Posts: 1,039 Loc: Eastern Canadia Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: Haha great - well as long as we are parting the mist then it's a good direction. A lot of brew store owners like to tell you to brew the beer they like and make - I hear ya. These days I just walk into the store, mill up my recipe and walk back out the door. You can make beer for quite a small amount of money. I just paid $18 at the brew store for an all grain version of the recipe I posted above scaled down. I've been getting cluster headaches (see my sig) and the alcohol is a trigger, so I brewed a 3% alcohol stout. But, I wanted a full flavoured 3% beer so I added some munich malt to the ordinary 2-row. This makes it a big fuller bodied, darker in colour, maltier in taste and is less "grainy" than the Canadian 2-row. Then I used the same amount of flaked barley and roasted barley as I would in a 5% stout, and as such they make up much larger percentages of the total fermentables giving a bigger malt umph to this beer while scaling back the alcohol content to about the threshold. You don't want to go much lower than 3% or you run into major loss of full flavour complexity. The most important things are: 1) learn the principles - just the big important pieces (usually included in a step by step guide) 2) learn YOUR system, and get really good on it 3) figure out what YOU like to drink and then make nothing else unless you want to I have a buddy who got challenged by his fiancé when they met to make a peanut butter chocolate beer. He made this porter that I swear tasted like the beer version of Reese's PB cups with peanut extract, peanut butter, roasted chocolate nibs, coco powder and a full robust porter malt bill to back it up. If you can dream it, you can brew it. And remember the old home brewer adage coined by the father of american home brewing (Charlie Papazzian) RDWHAHB or... Relax Don't Worry Have A Home Brew. Your beer is gonna be fine I wish we had a saying like that for the Mushroom Cultivation forum ![]() Good luck with the bulk buys man! Hope it works out. I put out about 150 gallons of home-brew on my 5 gallon system on a kitchen stove every year walking the grains home from the brew shop batch by batch. You can make a lot on a small scale system! -------------------- Cluster Headache sufferer? Cluster Busting Veil Tear GIF Flower Pot Grow GIF Mini Mono Tub GIFS "All mushrooms are edible, but some only once." -- Croatian Proverb
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Enlil's Official Story Registered: 10/31/04 Posts: 21,407 Loc: Building 7 |
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Quote: Dude of course I have. I just think the OP isn't ready for a 50% rye mash. -------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: feel free to post a recipe if you want. I am all about trying with new ingredients, although I probably won't be making the next one for two weeks, as I have my primary and secondary keg both filled, and I need to drink(or give away) everything in my secondary before I dump my primary now into the secondary container. Which do you prefer to mash at by the way? I assume 155 is the best temperature to get a really malty sweet beer, but I still prefer 148 even if it's supposed to make a drier beer, I can always add honey or other sugars to make it sweeter. The only reason I try and go as low as possible is, I'm still going to boil the beer after I remove the grains with the hops, so the temperatures DEFINITELY get high enough to activate the enzymes. Also, sometimes I have a hard time controlling the temperature on the gas stove, I've tried to mash before at 155 and it went up to 162. If I mash at 148 and the temperature goes up a bit, it most likely goes up to 154 or 155 before I notice it and control it. To me once a beer is washed above 160, it gets all these really other nasty flavours out of the brew grain tannins and sugar chains probably unfermentable by yeast but will be eaten by other micro biotic life forms and the flavors that it can create are disgusting and can ruin a really good beer. I've done it a time or two, and nothing is more frustrating then having a beer that starts out tasting very nice, and ends up tasting like shit when something goes wrong in fermentation. The worst mistakes I've made besides infection so far are doing mash temperatures too high, using wrong ingredients ratios in the grain bill when coming up with the recipe e.g. not enough 2 row too much oatmeal etc., and last but not least I've dranken some beer from primary before with the pressure on the yeast cake that the beer filters out a pretty sour flavor, that of course is easily fixed by syphoning into secondary. But so far the largest mistake I've made is heating the grains in the wash above 160, very disgusting results. It's good I've made the mistake so much though, after all after making the mistake over 6 times, I'll probably never make it ever again and it's a very easily identifiable mistake. And of course as said really tasting the beer before at least 14 days of fermentation doesn't give a very accurate idea of what the final product will be, but if it tastes like dog puke then you definitely know you did something wrong. To me unfinished beer just tastes like hoppy yeasty boring carbonated water with an emphasis that the carbon is a very over powering taste and I don't want to drink soda water if I'm trying to make beer. But definitely a sweet un finished flavor is very distinct from a nasty sour taste. The internet is no help of course. I found a site tech one time that said to do all washes at 175 degrees. Jesus Christ that sounds like a disaster if I'm ruined beer at 165 I don't want to know what beer at 175 is supposed to taste like. The washing itself to me is a very delicate procedure. I hear in France it's so easy to make wine because the natural wild yeast of the area is a wine making yeast, unlike most areas of the United States that has a wild yeast that is basically just an equivalent of a bacterial infection if it ferments your beer. Well, it's fun to experiment, getting down a very good all grain technique to me is hard. At least when you aren't used to doing it all the time. It's easy to cook chicken if you've made it over 1000 times, if you've only made it 10 times you might not know if you are burning it or adding wrong spices etc. At least I feel that's a good analogy when looking at all this. And please, feel free to post all the recipes you want -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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meat popsicle Registered: 10/26/13 Posts: 1,039 Loc: Eastern Canadia Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: I mash at the temp that makes sense for the beer I am making. Backsweetening - adding sugar after fermentation - is tricky business and not likely to be successful. Fermentable sugars will kick the yeast up again and will last only until they ferment it upping the alcohol. Using a non-fermentable like lactose in a milk stout is an option... but not widely for other styles. Best to use that mash temp as a design control parameter in your recipe to get what you want as a taste profile in your beer. If you want a sweeter beer, mash at 155. If you want a dry beer, mash at 148. But remember you can still have a malty, dry beer. Sweetness and maltiness are different... honey is sweet, a dry stout is malty as hell but dry enough to quench a mighty thirst. Quote: Actually soon after 155 df the enzymes denature completely stopping their action. The temperature difference (148-155) actually favours one amylase enzyme over the other. At 155 you get more short chain sugars that are unfermentable and hence sweeten the finished product. At 148 you get more simple sugars like maltose that yeast loves to om nom nom. Quote: Heat your strike water (around 3 gallons for a typical 5 gallon batch) to 168 degrees and turn off the stove. Mix in your grain. Wrap your pot up in a blanket and let it sit for one hour. Voila. 155 df mash temp. Better yet build a real mash tun with an insulated cooler and you'll hit your temp every time. You should not need to add heat to your mash. Especially with grains in the mash - this leads to grain scorching and off flavours. Quote: It's called sparging. Sparge water should be 180 df and you can drain your grains entirely one time, then dump in your sparge water (typically another 3-4 gallons for a 5 gallon batch due to absorption into the grain). Stir vigorously and drain again. Some people take extra measures here to limit the cloudiness of their beer. I just dump and drain. I think you are having a different problem, probably from cooking your grains on an active heat source which you should NEVER EVER DO. Also don't squeeze your grains if you are. Quote: Secondary isn't actually necessary and is a misnomer. Secondary fermentation occurs when you add more sugar, for example fruit to a simple beer post-fermentation to make a fruit beer. What you are calling a secondary is really just another opportunity for contamination, although most people do it... I put 5 gallons in a carboy, add yeast and let is sit for 4 weeks. It goes right into the keg after that. Single stage fermentation is the bomb. Quote: I taste my beer at all points in it's cycle and I learn a lot from doing so. Always have. Quote: lol sorry bud, the internet is spot on. You are the one who is wrong. Completely. Try a site like www.brews-bros.com - I learned everything I know there. Keep learning but keep an open mind, you are still making very incorrect assumptions despite having found the real info (the site that said sparge at 175 df is correct, again.) -------------------- Cluster Headache sufferer? Cluster Busting Veil Tear GIF Flower Pot Grow GIF Mini Mono Tub GIFS "All mushrooms are edible, but some only once." -- Croatian Proverb Edited by urthtown (02/04/14 04:37 PM)
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: You are missing the part where breweries that sparge with very hot water in the grains have a false bottom filter and have a tube that pulls the beer back up into the same container, and they can filter the water 100 times if they want. I don't have anything that fancy. Now I understand what you are saying, having the water heated with the heat source directly beneath it. I've messed some shit up a few times like that. Makes a lot of sense actually, the water at the top near the thermostat is at 155 but the water at the very bottom with the grains touching the bottom of the pan separated only by a bag keeping the grains and the water separate, is basically touching metal that is over 212, so those grains at the bottom are being boiled and the flavor is mixing in with the rest of the pot. I have basically done just what you are saying, I heat the water to 160, pour it into a container with the grains and cover the container and leave it in there for an hour. After about an hour the water is at 125 F(5 gallons takes awhile to cool), and I then remove the grains and assume(yes that word again) that the grains were in the water at 155 for a good bit. Now you might start saying "well most of the grains washed below 150 so you'd have a very dry beer" let's not get into all those details right now. Dry or sweet, whatever, the enzymes should be active and most of the sugar washes out of the grains. I know most of the sugar washes out of the grains, because at that point I can taste the water and it tastes super sweet as shit. From here I pour the water back into the pot and add hops and boil for one hour. I then try and cool the water as quickly as possibly, and when the temp drops below 90 F I go ahead and pitch the yeast. So far this has worked fine, the only times I've ran into problems was washing the grains above 160 F. As I've said I don't have a false bottom and a filter that filters the beer as many times as I want pumping it back into the same container. Perhaps those times I mashed the beer above 160 F I did something else wrong as well. I can't tell you what The biggest mistakes I've made so far have been 1) washing the beer at too high a temp 2) using wrong ingredients, a grain bill incorrectly measured, as an example not a mistake I've made personally but as an example you stated yourself if I had made a rye beer with over 50% rye grains. 3) infection, not boiling the after wash beer with hops at a long enough temperature, not sanitizing the equipment enough 4) last but not least, opening the container, pouring the beer early, syphoning too early, and as you said syphoning isn't entirely necessary. I didn't think so, I know yeast is sour, but the yeast cake practically seals itself to the bottom of the container, so I can't imagine how that could mix with the beer anyway It's not as though I'm trying to blow smoke up your ass. I appreciate the help and the advice, and I wish I understood more things I could look for that could isolate the answer for you. Perhaps it's not something I'm doing during the wash, as I've made beers that I tried right after I pitched the yeast, and although it didn't taste wonderful, it just tasted like sweet grainy water with a slight yeasteyness, it tasted quite alright and then later when the fermentation was finished it tasted like shit. Upon the facts and information I've given you so far, what else could I look for in terms of different variables that might further isolate bad batches in the future? I've had no problems making wine, though it wasn't always at the quality of a $50 bottle from a vintage chateau aged in an oak barrel for 4 years, it didn't taste as though it had any problems to me. Perhaps I am making a serious critical mistake. I thought it had to do with incorrect ingredient ratios when I prepared the grain bill, and incorrectly made washes at temps too high. I've had NO problems with fermentation, other then some beers fermenting in like 8 days and others taking 28 days, but I figured that this was due to different yeast strains and temperature variations during fermentation although all fermentation’s have been between 68 and 77 degrees. But it's always filled up with tons of C02 and had alcohol. I've had some strange gravity readings where some beers with the same 2 row ratio for the grain bill came out at 3% and others at 7%, I just figured that was from using different recipes with different grains that provided different ratios of ferment able sugars. Are there any other variables I can play around with that could give you a definite answer of what I'm doing wrong? Perhaps you are right and I should skip syphoning into a secondary fermentor all together, I can just go right from primary into the keg. I want to nail down any mistakes I might make to correct them in the future but I'm telling you so far my only changed variables have been the wash temperature and I've gotten drastically different results from each wash I've done just altering the temperature 5 degrees or so -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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I've heard other advice is that you cannot over pitch yeast. If you want to pitch 15 billion cells, go for it! This helps ensure a healthier beer fermentation with less chance of other bacteria spoiling the fermentation and competing with the yeast. Along with a longer boil, that helps as well right?
For example I could try one way where I wash the grains at 165 F and then boil for 45 minutes. Now another way I could wash for the grains at 148 F and then boil for an hour and 45 minutes right? Perhaps as you said, the huge difference between 148 F and 165 F might not be as big a difference except for a drier or sweeter beer, but the length of time I boil at might effect the finished product. Less time boiling = greater chance for infection and from what I've read boiling actually helps the enzymes break down the sugars faster(at least from what I've read.) The 148 temp begins the active the enzymes, but even with the starches broken down and the yeasts eating the remaining sugars, (once again, from what I've read), the longer that you boil the more likely more longer sugar chains will be broken down, and the more sugar chains not broken down, the greater the chance other micro biotics will eat the sugars the yeast can't eat and contaminate the beer, right? Of course the main reason I read not the mash in the 178 range and to stay in the 148 to 155 range is to not take chances that you will wash out unwanted enzymes and grain tannins as well as un necessary sugars. In fact I thought you yourself said that, that washing above 160 will activate a different range of enzymes, and those enzymes will create un wanted flavors. Now you are saying sparging at 178 is no big deal? How can both these facts not be contradictory? Sorry if I'm confused but I could have sworn you said those two things together -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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meat popsicle Registered: 10/26/13 Posts: 1,039 Loc: Eastern Canadia Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: Honestly man. Listen. It's called sparging. SPARGING. Not washing. You sparge the grain, not wash. AND YOU ARE WRONG. You need to sparge at 180 degrees because you want to STOP the enzymes after the hour mark and the hot water helps flush out sugars. There is NO off flavour from sparging with water that is "too hot" (180df). Your off flavours must be coming from cooking your grain. As you say, when the grain at the bottom contacts a 212 degree pot it will cause all kinds of off flavours. NEVER HEAT THE MASH. People often add boiling water to the mash right at the end in a step called a "mash out" where you rapidly increase the temperature of the mash by adding boiling water to stop the enzymes. If you have a very good control over your system and you say want a dry beer, but not too dry and you don't want those enzymes continuing to chew away throughout there sparge and while you heat the boil you could mash out to stop enzymatic activity, then sparge and boil. Hot water is NOT the issue. I'm trying to be clear on this - can you tell? Also, you don't need a mash tun with a false bottom. I happen to use a stainless steel braid in the bottom of mine but I don't filter it 100's of times "like the breweries" (says the guy who's learning how to brew...). You can mash in a pot, just use the method I said before. Heat strike water to 168 df, add grains, insulate and wait. Then pour off the liquid, add 180 df sparge water and pour off. Additionally, by heating the mash directly you are destroying the very enzymes that were converting starch to sugar for you by overheating. This is your big mistake, everything else should be fine. Stop blaming "too hot" sparge water - it's not the problem I guarantee you. Dude... your last post... sparging at 148 bad idea... boiling for 45 minutes will throw off your bitterness... don't pitch a ton of yeast... one pack of dry yeast is more than enough..... YOU DON"T MASH OUTSIDE THE 148-155 RANGE. READ man. You take 168 degree water and add your grain, this cools the water to 155 df. Then you hold it there and SPARGE at 180 DF. For fuck sake.... This has been done literally for thousands of years to develop this process. I'm not trying to trick you, you are just wrong and seemingly unwilling to learn. I've tried but I think I'll stop - it takes so long to correct all your bad info and assumptions
Edited by urthtown (02/05/14 05:59 AM)
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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See, you are not even understanding what the fuck I am saying, so it's making it literally impossible for me to speak to you, and I'm not understanding why I'm continuing to do so
I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT TEMPERATURES TOO HOT IN A SPARGE, I AM TALKING ABOUT TEMPERATURES TOO HOT DURING A MASH, DID YOU READ ANYTHING I FUCKING SAID????????? Ok, now that that is out of the way, hopefully we can move on from the conversation. WHILE THE GRAINS AND THE HOT WATER ARE TOGETHER (not touching a heat source) It is a good idea not to bring the temperature over 155. In fact as I was saying, to me it's better to heat the water to 160, remove the heat source, pour the water over the grains with something such as a grain bag separating the water and grains, and allow the hot water and grains to wash at 155. AFTER WARDS DURING A SPARGE YES I COULDN'T CARE LESS HOW HOT IT IS As I've said at that point once I filter out the grains, I pretty much just pour the water back into a huge pot on the heat source, and boil for one hour. I'm not even sure WHY you'd stop the enzymes from doing their job, it seems to me the enzymes couldn't break down too much sugars. BUT either way this is accomplished when I boil the remaining beer mix with hops for one hour AFTER THE WASH Ok, we got that out of the way? No more confusing my high temp cautioning with sparge temperatures when I'm speaking of MASH temperatures? And the web site I found didn't say to sparge at 175 it said to mash at 175, which is why I thought it was extremely retarded. And there IS extremely retarded advice on the web, there is no need to argue that, I'm not saying which sources are or aren't anymore, but some web sites give a ton of just really bad fucking information. Much better to avoid sites that you can't cross reference the info provided about 100 times. Fair enough? No more advice saying "you should sparge at 178!" right? Please, don't confuse I said not to WASH over 155, I didn't say don't SPARGE over 178. Not sure at all where you are confusing what I'm saying here, but hopefully this ends the confusion
-------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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Glass Blower Registered: 07/08/12 Posts: 5,288 Loc: Pee En Double You |
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Quote: Quote: Quote: Dude you said wash ![]() IF you were talking about a mash, you should have said mash. When you sparge you are basically "washing" the grains with hot water. So you see where the confusion could come into play. Take a yoHe is just trying to help you -------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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oops
right, mash. mash wash turn the m upside down. Mistake mistakes -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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meat popsicle Registered: 10/26/13 Posts: 1,039 Loc: Eastern Canadia Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: RDWHAHB Quote: We all make em. I mistook "wash" for sparge. As sparging is essentially rinsing or washing the grains I assumed that's what you were talking about. Sorry, but just underscores why terminology is important when communicating! There is an amazing resource in online forums like this and the one I posted the link to. They are wealths of knowledge if you are willing to take the time to search out sound information that works with where you are coming from. -------------------- Cluster Headache sufferer? Cluster Busting Veil Tear GIF Flower Pot Grow GIF Mini Mono Tub GIFS "All mushrooms are edible, but some only once." -- Croatian Proverb
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Enlil's Official Story Registered: 10/31/04 Posts: 21,407 Loc: Building 7 |
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Quote: The confusion, is you seem to keep wanting to use the term WASH. No real brewer would do that. So, at least right now, hopefully this ends the confusion. I mean WTF bro? Are you serious? No, methinks you may be trolling on the river. Hate to say that, but this is getting silly. GO fucking WASH your hair, then brew a batch with some fucking SPARGE water. Easy, right? -------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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part-time Ninja Registered: 08/17/06 Posts: 2,735 Loc: Loc:Loc:Loc:Loc: Last seen: 5 years, 2 months |
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Quote: This is not true. Higher temps favor longer chain sugars (which are less fermentable, as you said.). Additionally, the enzymes don't fully denature until around 165 degrees fahrenheit. I've mashed beers at 160 with no issues whatsoever (this is the strategy of Pliny the Elder and nearly all beers by Lagunitas). Also, the recent issue from the American Society of Brewing Chemists had a very convincing, peer reviewed article that demonstrated higher mash temps don't actually impact the fermentability of the wort, or the potential finishing gravity of the beer. I'm not fully sold on that yet since it flies in the face of 100's of years of brewing tradition, but it made some interesting points.
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meat popsicle Registered: 10/26/13 Posts: 1,039 Loc: Eastern Canadia Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: By "soon after 155" I meant that the denaturing temp was close to that temp... in the context of the conversation there was mash/sparge confusion and we were talking about 180 degrees which is past the denaturing temp. Hence my "soon after 155" comment. Not incorrect, just not specific. That last bit is interesting, but I know I've made the same beer, same ingredients, system and process with just a different mash temp and noticed a change in the overall character of the beer so it must be doing something. Maybe just not as much as was thought? ![]() Anyway thanks for being specific, but as far as I'm concerned 165 is "soon after 155" :P -------------------- Cluster Headache sufferer? Cluster Busting Veil Tear GIF Flower Pot Grow GIF Mini Mono Tub GIFS "All mushrooms are edible, but some only once." -- Croatian Proverb
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Enlil's Official Story Registered: 10/31/04 Posts: 21,407 Loc: Building 7 |
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AP knows everything about everything when it comes to brewing. He mashes 20,000 pounds of pils a day at 35 cents a pound and turns it into god knows what. But you can god damn bet that shit is tasty just ask the junkie!
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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part-time Ninja Registered: 08/17/06 Posts: 2,735 Loc: Loc:Loc:Loc:Loc: Last seen: 5 years, 2 months |
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Quote: Haha yeah I guess that's fair. I thought you meant like 157 and that was silly, but I can agree that in the grand scheme of things 165 is close enough It is still important to note that higher mash temps do produce LESS fermentable worts than lower mash temps. I figure you know that and maybe just said it backwards but I want to reiterate to avoid confusion. Quote: It's funny that you're the most arrogant poster I've ever met on this subject until someone else with knowledge comes along and then you instantly get combative and butthurt.
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Fermentation temps matter quite a bit as well. If your air condition temp reads at 73 F that doesnt mean the room at the furthest end of the house isnt 76 F.
68 F is PERFECT I recently got a thermal bag to put the fermenter in with containers of ice I can replace daily 73 F is probably ok but 75 is too high, especially depending if you are using extremely temperature resistant yeast or if you want more IPAish or wheat ale type beer etc. And obviously bottom feeding lager yeast doesnt like anything above 58 -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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part-time Ninja Registered: 08/17/06 Posts: 2,735 Loc: Loc:Loc:Loc:Loc: Last seen: 5 years, 2 months |
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Really depends on your yeast strain and beer style. Belgians would love 80 degrees for fermentation, but an altbier yeast (while technically still considered an ale strain) loves to be in the low 60's. I personally love even WLP001 around 75 because it's so clean that faster fermentation is wonderful.
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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I see Belgian Ales and barley wines ferment well at 75 F or above
https://byo.com/stories/item/108 but can you make a really great IPA at 75 F with a specific type of yeast? I love sweet IPAs but I love IPAs in general so really to me even an english more sour type IPA would be great. I have a hard time controlling the temperature at my place without racking up a HUGE electricity bill, while 75 F is the general temperature of my place, I think realistically the lowest I could ferment at would be 72 F then again, I have an insulated bag I could throw ice in, but I'm cautious of throwing too much ice and cooling the fermenter down below 63 F. Not to mention that it's difficult to keep replenishing the ice, if I leave for 8 hours the ice might all melt and the temp will go RIGHT back up but I don't see why a 74 F temp can't be adjusted and still ferment some really sweet beers even though it seems beers that really like those high temps are made with yeast that generally make really dry beers -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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Enlil's Official Story Registered: 10/31/04 Posts: 21,407 Loc: Building 7 |
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Quote: Your use of the terms "sweet" and "sour" IPA is unusual. If you are getting sour flavors you may have an infection. Or could you give us a couple of commercial examples of "sweet" and "sour" IPAs? Not all Belgian yeasts finish "really dry" although some do such as Wyeast 3711 French Saison. Adding candi sugar in that style will make it finish even drier, which is counter intuitive. I think a good choice for you would be the Westmalle strain, Wyeast 3787. Your problem will likely be to keep if from fermenting too vigorously, and increasing in temperature on it's own, and too fast. You can start it out at 70 F and let it free rise which it will do up to 80 F and above, if kept in an insulated container. This is actually desirable, and to style for that yeast. It's a very flavorful yeast, lots of clove and banana and phenols. You really don't have to brew it to a Belgian style, I made a rye IPA with it, not super hoppy, no candi sugar, and it came out really great. It would work well with your fermentation temperature considerations without having to do any cooling. -------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: I'll keep that in mind, wyeast 3787 here is a "commercial example" of a sour english IPA http://beeradvocate.com/beer/pro the one I had(not this one) wasn't actually that sour, it was just wasn't the sweetest bodied IPA I ever had. It was quite great actually, I'd like to try more english style IPAs. the one in the picture I've never had so I can't vouch it's not too hoppy, but the one I had wasn't overly hoppy, which to me is pretty signature of IPAs, which was nice. Thanks -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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Enlil's Official Story Registered: 10/31/04 Posts: 21,407 Loc: Building 7 |
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Quote: I entered a few month old hops fading English IPA in a contest a while back. Should have done it as and English Pale Ale, got dinged a bit for not enough hops. Still scored a 39 and a 35, average 37. Well that barrel aged sour mash IPA seems a horse of a different color than your typical IPA. I like your idea of getting away from the American IPA, the citrus hops are nice but after a while get a bit much. Willamette hops are nice, Goldings. The US Goldings I used in that English IPA and were well received. That and Fuggles but Goldings are a more popular hop. Some folks really detest Fuggles. -------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: yeah the citrus and sentential are delicious but do get a bit much after awhile. I've used goldings, good stuff, they will hop the shit out of your beer but won't be too over powering. I like simcoe hops as well, although in moderation mixed with other hops. A beer with primarily simcoe hops to me is just plain sour and boring at that, not even a good sour, they mix well though in small amounts. I have no idea how to brew that barrel aged sour ipa, I just know I've tried one(not that brand) and it is delicious. I'd love to try a recipe but I'm a little new to brewing and fermenting I just recently started fermenting some really bad ass beers getting the temperatures just right and everything and don't know if I'm up for a complex recipe like an aged beer. My beers so far have come out great fermented between 10 and 14 days. I'm good at fermenting beers that ferment quickly, probably because they require a stronger yeast and more sugar to ferment so have a higher gravity and sterilize the environment more quickly. Tried a lager one time and FAILED, and can't imagine trying to age a beer. But I'd LOVE the recipe for a sour aged ipa I could try it, get good at it without it being aged, then later learn to age it and perfect it. By the way I'm currently using safbrew t-58 it's a pretty hard core yeast as well, I'm wondering how many different types of beer love this yeast. I know I won't be able to make any really sweet beers because of the vigorousness of this yeast, but that's ok I wouldn't mind making a very light ale either, one for a recipe meant to be sweet but fermented with a more vigorous yeast, and made into an almost clean light beer ale. It won't be as clean as a lager of course, but that's no problem lagers aren't my favourite. I'm really with the idea that recipes can be changed around as long as you stick with proper mash/ferment temperatures and yeasts appropriate for the type of beer you are making. -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
Edited by imachavel (02/09/14 07:27 PM)
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Enlil's Official Story Registered: 10/31/04 Posts: 21,407 Loc: Building 7 |
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I notice I have a pack of about 3 year old T58 in my fridge. May have to see how many hard core buggers survived. Do a big oatmeal stout with it. Start the ferment at 58 F. Just to be mean. Oh yeah T58 now what you got?? Take it out to the cold garage and now what??
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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I thought t-58 preferred warmer ferment temps in the mid 70s? Or maybe it's just a real rugged yeast good for broader ferment temps. Does it make good IPA? I personally love aggressive yeasts, I have no idea what all the blab about aggressive yeasts creating too strong beer flavors and not making good light beers with delicate flavors is about.
To be fair, most light beers are lagers, and lagers have yeasts that eat more sugars. While they take longer to eat more sugars, they do indeed eat more sugars, and yet there are still tons of varieties in the ranges of sweet lagers. I guess when people start discussing beer they tend to get a little over picky about flavor variations. 149 F versus 156 F mash temps etc. I think most of the reason for beer type is based on ingredients, yeast type, ferment temp and ferment times, etc. sure mash temps do have an impact but I can't imagine a very sweet beer made with a low alcohol tolerance yeast mashed at 149 being very dry, likewise I can't imagine a beer fermented longer with a yeast that has a stronger tolerance to alcohol mashed at 156 being a very sweet beer. And then of course with recipes and fermentation periods there are always fluctuations, one can add ingredients towards the very end of the fermentation, berries, honey, molasses, hell maybe even cannabis. I've never had a cannabis beer I'm curious to the flavor I'd imagine the alcohol would do a very good job extracting the flavors -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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Enlil's Official Story Registered: 10/31/04 Posts: 21,407 Loc: Building 7 |
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Quote: Dude, I was joking. Wow I read your post, and honestly have no clue how to respond to it. And I've brewed probably 200 batches! Ya stumped me... -------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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meat popsicle Registered: 10/26/13 Posts: 1,039 Loc: Eastern Canadia Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: ![]() and also... ![]() Man, OP. You have no idea what you are talking about. None of what you said made any sense at all. You talk about brewing as if everything you say is correct and you know it to be true, but trust me that was mostly gibberish. Here LunarEclipse I'll try again... though I'm giving up hope: Aggressive yeasts don't "create too strong flavours" and there is no "blab" about it... US-05 is a highly aggressive yeast but most people who don't like it usually state its lack of yeast character, its completely clean palate as the drawback - they want something they can taste. But a pack or two of US-05 can crush through a 11% ABV barley wine like it ain't no thang. "To be fair, most light beers are lagers, and lagers have yeasts that eat more sugars." - said no brewer, ever. This is a false statement... so false it hurts me. There are tons of light ales out there.... anyway I've already given you the link to the BJCP style guide. Lagers don't have yeasts that eat more sugars. WTF does that even mean? Dude, every parameter changes the beer's flavour. If you can't get your mash temp right, you'll never be a consistent or effective brewer even at a home brew scale. Stop pretending the thing you keep fucking up doesn't matter and instead believe us that it is part of controlling the outcome of your brewing process. "I can't imagine a very sweet beer made with a low alcohol tolerance yeast mashed at 149 being very dry" lol because you don't understand brewing at all. That statement alone proves it. It is about reciprocity. If you don't have the malt backbone to give you a sweet balanced beer, you can fine tune your flavour profile with mash temps, stiffness (the water to grain ratio), etc. If you have a big grain bill and it will be a struggle to crunch through all that sugar you can mash low and thin to encourage fermentability of the wort. It's like you are saying it doesn't matter when you add the hops. Of course you can still make beer if you ignore a parameter, but the whole point is to control the process so you don't make shit beer with the off flavours you complain about earlier. I was looking for the "dense mutherfucker" image but couldn't find it. Dude, go buy anything by Charlie Papazzian and read until you don't sound like you are speaking tongues when asking questions of fellow brewers! Anyone newbie who reads your posts, written as if you know what you are talking about would be very misled as to the brewing process and what is important. -------------------- Cluster Headache sufferer? Cluster Busting Veil Tear GIF Flower Pot Grow GIF Mini Mono Tub GIFS "All mushrooms are edible, but some only once." -- Croatian Proverb
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: once again, this is the most uneducated statement I've ever heard. If this whole conversation is going to be geared towards "there is one way of doing things and only one way" in a snobbish brewing competitive sort of way, I'm just avoiding the entire discussion. Some people like lagers, some like ales, and I can't remember one single line I made saying "everything I say is correct and I know it to be true" I've said several times I think a home brewer doesn't have advantages that a brewery has: 1) insulated fermenters with controlled thermostats 2) more expensive filters 3) more advanced syphoning 4) an airlock that releases c02 based on how much is detected etc. have I said "it's impossible to brew good beer in your home"? No I haven't, I've said it's difficult. We have established that a mash temperature must be maintained between 148 F and 155 F to brew a good beer, that a solid boil must be maintained with hops, that there is something called a "wash" that is not even associated with a "mash" even if the process is to obtain enzymes and the sugars broken by them in the process. We have established that if a recipe says to ferment a beer between 68 F and 72 F, that fermenting at 64 F or 74 F might entirely ruin the beer. Here is another thing that is not often spoken of in this thread, since we are discussing leaving things out. How about yeast that stalls? Yes this is a factor, I can't imagine throwing in TOO MUCH yeast when fermenting. Fermenting is a process in which the yeast simply has to propagate not only for the purpose of creating a good flavor and fermenting the beverage itself, but because there must be a high enough alcohol content simply to sterilize the environment around it. What happens if you do everything else perfect, and don't pitch enough yeast? It doesn't get enough of a head start to propagate fast enough. Sure it COULD just take longer to ferment, and possibly have even more flavor over a longer fermentation, BUT it's now going to stall, and stalling means more chance of other bacteria/microbiology getting in and eating sugars and totally screwing up not only the flavor and head retention of the beer, but the ph and other factors as well. Well we are at it, what is "too much carbonation"? Are we talking about a bottle or a keg? Why is a keg supposed to be cold crashed but bottling is supposed to be done at room temperature? Who says an airlock is best? Why not a carboy where you create your own airlock and set it to release pressure at a certain amount of pressure? So far I've discussed mostly the temperature and filtering aspect of brewing, and barely even mentioned the fermentation process, aside from different yeasts and temperature preferences, and yet you say "I say things as though I know them certainly" -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: that's funny: "Lager yeast varieties have the ability to work at much cooler temperatures than ale yeasts. They lack the fruity esters produced by warm fermentation and instead leave a crisp, clean flavor. Lager yeast work slowly, but they are very thorough. They consume a wider variety of sugars than ale yeasts do, which helps produce that characteristic dry finish." http://drinks.seriouseats.com/20 it's almost as though you were perfect and never made any mistakes in any of the things you say ![]() now since you are so specific in saying a mash temp shouldn't be 149 or 154 if you want a specific head and retention and profile and you are aiming at 152 it has to be exactly 152, why don't you explain how you will keep 152 exactly for 45 minutes? On a propane burner? Didn't you say earlier "the equipment you use doesn't have to be fancy." Well good luck using a propane burner and keeping it below 180 F with the thing barely on at all. Also you contradict yourself. Earlier you said "I don't think your problem is in the mash, but what you are doing later on in the fermentation" But now suddenly a minor few degrees is extremely important. Well then I definitely better not agree that any beer "can be fermented at 78 F with a certain type of yeast" yeah right if you don't mind it tasting like banana peels. I can't imagine a decent beer even at 76 F beer is a cold temperature fermented beverage, even if cold means 69 F it's still not a warm beverage. And as far as "temperature does not effect sugar consumption" clearly that's uneducated. Even with wine yeast a colder fermentation is used for white wine to leave more sugar and a higher temperature for red wine to limit fruity flavor. But while we are being specific, I wouldn't even care about mash temperature if a fermentation temperature can't be controlled. If you mash between 148 and 155 what so ever, you will still have enzymes and convertible starches are now sugars. Your flavor profile may be effected by a few degrees, but the profile of the beer will not be changed from an IPA to a bitter sour wheat because you did a mash at 152 instead of 149. Not saying you indicated this, but how much profile differentiation are you talking about? According to the spectrum of beer, the difference between a lager and an ale is almost entirely dependent on ingredients, yeast and fermentation temps. How dry vs sweet can a beer be if one is made with 2-row malt and the other wheat? Now all the sudden is a difference between 150 F and 153 F mash going to change the entire flavor profile of your beer? Am I saying it won't make a difference? No I never said that, in fact since you are quoting me quote this. I never said it won't make a difference. I think what I said or at least what I was trying to say is that the profile of the beer will be effected the LEAST by 3 degrees mash temperature then it will by many other factors. Note that I am arguing a difference of about 3 degrees, and not 10 degrees. I am not arguing that a mash of 147 versus 157 won't have ENTIRELY different results. -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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part-time Ninja Registered: 08/17/06 Posts: 2,735 Loc: Loc:Loc:Loc:Loc: Last seen: 5 years, 2 months |
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Quote: Yikes man, I really wanted to be on your side but you really said some weird shit there. Quote: 1) I have a thermostatically controlled fermentation chamber at home. It's called a fridge with a Johnson Controls regulator. It cost me about $100 and I can control my fermentations +/- 1 degree F at HOME. 2) You don't need to filter homebrew and it has nothing to do with the quality of the finished product. 3) Commercial breweries don't siphon. The thought of siphoning a 4,000 gallon fermenter has me laughing my ass off. We use pumps. Once again, no impact on beer quality with either method. 4) WTF. You know what an airlock on a commercial vessel looks like? It's a fucking tube, just like a blowoff hose on a 6 gallon carboy. Some breweries will cap the fermenters during diacetyl rest to naturally carbonate the beer a bit, but the pressure regulators have nothing to do with CO2, it's just PSI. Once again, totally available for homebrewers as well and has no impact on finished beer quality, it's a financial thing at a commercial scale (because using bottled CO2 to force carb 120bbl of beer is fiscally retarded). Quote: I completely disagree. 100% absolutely. Quote: Overpitching is just as bad as underpitching. When too many viable cells are available at the start of fermentation, the reproduction process is reduced, leading to too many mother cells and not enough fresh daughter cells. This can overstress the secondary anaerobic metabolic cycle of the yeast and leads to release of non-desirable flavor compounds such as Acetaldehyde and fusel alcohols. Quote: Also wrong. Yeast out competes other organisms through pH modification (they take your beer down to around a pH of 4.1), the alcohol is byproduct of metabolism and does very little to sanitize the wort. Quote: Holy fuck dude. First off, longer ferments don't mean more flavor. Christ. 95% of flavor compounds (esters and phenolics, primarily) are produced in the first 72 hours of fermentation. After that it's pretty much just turning sugar into alcohol. Pitching too little is just like pitching too much (as I said above), the cell division stage happens too aggressively, leading to massive scarring on the mother-cell's cell walls and poor permeability for compound uptake and utilization. This can also cause horrendous off flavors in beer such as acetaldehyde. Stalling from an underpitch is very unlikely, usually that's a result of poor oxygenation. Quote: fuckityfuckityfuckfuck. I don't even want to respond to any of those, just use google. Those are like first month of homebrewing questions, and you're posing them like it's a philosophical revelation. I will tell you however, that doing primary fermentation under pressure is a very good way to make disgusting beer. Yeast does not like high CO2 pressure (it once again reduces cell wall permeability for compound absorption and release). Ok I'm tired now. I have no desire to even touch your second post. Hopefully someone else will chime in.
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nuerosonic Registered: 12/29/10 Posts: 3,107 Loc: Endless marshlan |
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I think this has been one long troll thread, personally..
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meat popsicle Registered: 10/26/13 Posts: 1,039 Loc: Eastern Canadia Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote:
-------------------- Cluster Headache sufferer? Cluster Busting Veil Tear GIF Flower Pot Grow GIF Mini Mono Tub GIFS "All mushrooms are edible, but some only once." -- Croatian Proverb
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: what does this mean? 100% absolutely it will? Or 100% absolutely you disagree? Am I supposed to read this as if it's not just sarcasm? ![]() while we are on the subject, why do you feel over carbonation will ruin a beer if the carbonation can be released? Did I say "seal a container so no c02 will escape?" second, what is "over pitching yeast"? Adding 2 or 3 yeast packets instead of 1? Or are you assuming I'm talking about adding 40 yeast packets? You know what, never mind. Forget I asked ever. I get the feeling most people here have made this a career, or very much thought about it. A simple discussion turned into "you think you know everything and just keep saying shit that means nothing." You are right, I do know everything, which was why I created a thread asking questions. Well, this is pretty much every shroomery discussion, there is no point in asking something unless you have 99% of all the facts together and are just curious about the smallest most insignificant detail. -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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part-time Ninja Registered: 08/17/06 Posts: 2,735 Loc: Loc:Loc:Loc:Loc: Last seen: 5 years, 2 months |
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Quote: I was not one who accused you of knowing everything, and as such I'm willing to continue the conversation with you if you'd like. Quote: This is what made people think you're a bit nuts, though. I said I completely disagree and somehow to convolute my next sentence to read as though I agree with you? That's weird man. To clarify; I completely disagree that fermenting a beer outside the recipe specifications will completely ruin it (especially at a temperature as benign as 74F). Quote: I don't really understand where you got that from. Overcarbonation if the beer can be released? I'm not sure what you're referencing, and that's not really a belief of mine. And also no, you didn't say that either. I'm very very lost here. Quote: A proper pitch rate is 1 million [living, active, viable] yeast cells per mL of wort, per degree plato for ales, and 1.5 million for lagers. What that means is that if you are brewing an ale with an OG of 11 degrees plato, and your volume was 19,000mL(~5gal), you'd need 209 Billion active cells for a proper pitch. Any less than that is considered underpitching, around 2-3 times that quantity is considered over pitching. Edited by ApJunkie (02/18/14 11:32 PM)
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: why not? If a beer is supposed to be fermented at 68 F, and it ends up being fermented at 74 F, that is 6 degrees above the recommended temperature. It's as if a mash was supposed to be done at 152 F and it's done at 158 F, apparently at that setting you'll get tons of unwanted ferment able sugars. This is microbiology right? What happens if a ferment is done at 6 degrees above recommended temperature? 1) it develops all sorts of unwanted esters and flavors on it's own, as yeast, a fungus that wants to stay cool it's basically going into a different phase of fermentation 2) despite everyone disagreeing with sterilization, the truth is a beer will keep in the fridge for years(if very un optimally) BECAUSE of the alcohol ratio/volume. If a beer is fermenting at 74 F, perhaps at 74 F there are TONS of other bacteria eating sugars at that temperature that just LOVE it, while the yeast propogates a little more slowly, and doesn't have a chance to create a condition it can compete completely against anything else at. Will it for sure stall? Maybe not because of that temperature it won't, stalling usually happens in cold temperature, not warmer, but competing with tons of other micro bacteria I'm sure doesn't help the yeast propogate happily and freely. Just as when I say "pshh, a mash temp of 162 instead of 152 won't ruin a beer, it might not be optimal but it won't ruin it" and people reply with "well, how do you know, have you actually tried a 45 minutes mash at 162 instead of 152? It very well COULD ruin it" I say to you: have you tried 21 days of fermentation at 74 F for a recipe that desires 68 F temp? Perhaps if you'd made the mistake, you'd agree. It might not ruin the beer entirely, the finished product may taste quite a bit like beer, but I'm SURE it's not optimal for a great beer unless you are just ok with a weird banana peel tasting OK beer. Quote: I simply meant too much carbonation can be adjusted by releasing some of the carbonation, even if undesirable, it's not impossible, is all Quote: 209 billion, that sounds like quite a few. I would imagine it's very possible to over pitch yeast. I wouldn't "want some beer with my yeast" by any means, where there is more yeast then water or sugar. It does however, at 209 billion, sound very hard to over pitch with a 5 gallon recipe with simply a few extra packets is all. I've read some recipes online that state: feel free to use up to 8 yeast packets on this one to get a good healthy fermentation. Of course someone doing this for a long time can re use their old yeast at the bottom, mix it with sugar and stir it vigorously for two hours and get a really strong vigorous starter going. I suppose temperature would be less important IF you automatically hard more then 1 billion yeast cells to start with. 1 billion is ok, but now I feel optimal fermentation temperature is even MORE detrimental if the yeast is going to get a really slow start. Make sense? -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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Glass Blower Registered: 07/08/12 Posts: 5,288 Loc: Pee En Double You |
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I do not know much about brewing, but reading this thread, it appears you are making yourself look severely foolish and ignorant
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: what a sound statement I do not know much about converting lysergic acid to lsd, but after reading this thread:http://www.shroomery.org/forums/ it would appear your just randomly pop into threads and say things that would make you look severely foolish and ignorant -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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part-time Ninja Registered: 08/17/06 Posts: 2,735 Loc: Loc:Loc:Loc:Loc: Last seen: 5 years, 2 months |
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Quote: First off, a higher mash temp makes for more UNfermentable sugars, not "unwanted ferment able sugars." Second, If a ferment is done 6 degrees above the recommended temp then the beer will be different, but will very likely still be delicious. You said "completely ruined" and that's where I disagree with you. Quote: Wrong. Who says yeast "wants to stay cool?" I ferment Belgian style ales in the upper 80's all the time and they're fucking delicious. Also, "different phase of fermentation"? That's complete gibberish when taking about wort temperature. There are two phases for yeast metabolism; aerobic and anaerobic, neither have fuckall to do with temperature. Quote: No goddammit. This one makes me mad because I already told you that the alcohol in beer has ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOTHING TO DO WITH OUTCOMPETING OTHER ORGANISMS. It's a byproduct of metabolism (it's YEAST POOP) and it is NOT a mechanism of survival. Stop stating shit that's wrong as though it's a fact. Quote: Yes this is true. I still don't understand where this entered the conversation though. Are you talking about fermenting under pressure still, or are you talking about if you overcarbonate a finished beer in a keg? Quote: Welp, that's retarded. That's not how a starter is made, and everything there is wrong. If you're talking about pitching fresh wort on top of the yeast cake from the last batch then go ahead, but don't add sugar and "stir it vigorously for two hours" or you will certainly kill your yeast and make a disgusting beer.
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Glass Blower Registered: 07/08/12 Posts: 5,288 Loc: Pee En Double You |
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Quote: Well I do happen to know much about synthesizing LSD so your argument here is pretty irrelevant LMFAO And it really has nothing to do with this thread. A good sign of when someone lost the argument is when they stop arguing their point and start trying to make personal attacks There is not one person in this thread who agrees with you. that should tell you something ![]() Good troll post though lol -------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: first off, I'm not sure what's up with all the very derogatory comments coming into this thread such as "Welp, that's retarded" seems un necessary. Now to address what you are saying, I feel as though you are arguing technical aspects of things I'm not addressing in certain ways. You are saying surely 1) there are Belgian beers that ferment in the 80s that come out just fine, so temperature is not a necessity when fermenting First of all, that is very surely a specific recipe made with a specific type of yeast, I can almost guarantee you, if you try to ferment a lager at 70 F you will almost surely ruin the beer. Of course, it will ferment, but the character and profile will be nothing to what you are used to experiencing with beer, it'll be a beerish waterish drink, and most likely infected. Perhaps arguing 74 F versus 68 F is a bit too specific, although I'm very doubtful what you call "delicious" will come out. It may come out as a good beer not below the standard of Bud Light, but if you are trying to ferment a high alcohol volume IPA with a less sour aromatic hop ratio, a beer that is supposed to be strong, but sweet and pale, and you end up with a sour beer that tastes like it's been in a warm closet for 4 months even after putting it in the fridge, with the character and profile more reminding you of a pilsner then a pale ale, is that a success? Does fermenting at a temperature un favorable for what the yeast considers favourable for the recipe guaranteed to cause massive off flavour profile, cloudyness, infection? No, but it certainly isn't helping the environment you are trying to create 2) there are aerobic(needing 02) phases and anaerobic phases (not needing c02, producing high volumes of c02 and alcohol at this point) of course there are. And the aerobic phase and anaerobic phase should happen in the correct phases they are supposed to aren't they? If not enough oxygen is obtained, then surely the yeast starts slowly, doesn't have a chance to propagate fast enough, and is prone to fighting infection right? We are on the same idea that there are other micro organisms and sugar and water will not indefinitely be a prime environment for a specific yeast that wants to make your beer and eventually these other organisms will compete for the sugar, and nutrients provided when mashing/sparging the grains right? Maybe saying that alcohol is made on purpose by yeast to sterilize the environment is wrong, but the fact is the alcohol does sterilize the environment and makes it possible for the yeast to continue after a point, maybe even if it's the last final phase of fermentation, and not the 1st stage of fermentation. At the very least, I'd hate to think about sugar water sitting in the fridge with hops in it for a year in a bottle and opening it and expecting a beer instead of some weird shitty tasting bacteria water. Of course some sugars preserve themselves, honey for example. But honey preserves itself why? Because it's unhydrated it's anhydrous the liquid itself is not h20, mix honey with water and it may be more resistant to bacteria then just sugar and water but not permanently resistant anymore. Same with jelly and jam, they sit on the shelf preserved because the sugar content is high and the h20 content is too low for bacteria to exist without enough hydration. 3) creating a yeast starter the wrong way will kill the yeast, so why are you obsessed with creating a more powerful starter? Well should no yeast starter be made? Is pitching one packet of dry yeast enough each and every time? There is more then just Wyeast you know I'm sure. If we aren't going to be as careful about fermentation temperature etc. then wouldn't it be wise to create a high yeast cell count so propagation goes healthy without a hitch? I have seen starters where you mix some sugar in a bowl with some water and stir the yeast in and leave the bowl of water there to propagate yeast cells vigorously for a few hours while you do your mash and boil and cooling and prepare a good yeast starter for pitching. Sure, if you put it in a blender and leave it on for two hours yes your yeast will die. But I've never heard anyone not recommend yeast starters this way, you are the first I've heard. In fact that is basically what Wyeast does, it contains a sugar packet that you puncture and the yeast and the water mix together and it creates a healthy starter. In fact Wyeast is supposed to be refrigerated until opened and mixed, isn't that so the yeast isn't incubating in warm water with other micro bacteria that enjoy to incubate as well? So on that note, no I'm not saying that vigorous bacteria ONLY propagates itself in warm water in the mid 70s, and not in colder water in the mid 60s. But I figured it's safe to assume a recipe for beer saying to ferment in the mid 60s and not high 70s means the yeast SHOULD perform better in the mid 60s, and I was under the general impression that some of the most vigorous micro bacteria prefers high temperatures. I was under the impression that this is the reason food is kept in cold storage, a bacteria that decomposes food would surely love to do it in 90 F as opposed to 52 F, or am I wrong? And if temperature is not as necessary to fermenting as you say, then I'd imagine creating a healthy yeast starter to ensure a vigorous and healthy fermentation would be even more important. I am not trying to sound sarcastic, I'm simply addressing these issues as you have said them. I feel you are arguing that "these factors are not as important as you make them." But is that saying they are not important at all? If a chicken egg incubates at 95 F(random example I don't know what exact temp they incubate at), but let's say they do, and you have chicken eggs next to some grains, and you want the grains to sit in a sauce and get flavor, and you don't want the chicken eggs hatching and the chickens eating the grain, wouldn't it be smart to keep the eggs and grain at 68 F and not get too high up there? I doubt you'd ever put chicken eggs and grains soaking in a sauce for flavor next to each other as the chicken eggs are an unwanted variable, but surely if it was and un controllable variable in the slightest bit, keeping the proper fermentation temps sure wouldn't hurt would they? best I could do, but still seems appropriate
-------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
Edited by imachavel (02/21/14 01:49 PM)
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: hate to address another thread but: "Also, anyone who is actually making or planning on making LSD would definitely not be posting about it on an internet drug forum and if you are, sorry to say but you are fucking retarded" sure doesn't seem like a statement that justifies you winning an argument. There are probably people all the time who plan to make lsd, and ask questions on a drug forum. Is it smart? No. Are those chemicals under watch lists by the government? Yes. Do you need to break off the amide from lysergic acid amide, then attach diethylamide to lysergic acid amide in synthesis which should slightly change the ph of what was previously lysergic acid amide? It's irrelevant. Does insulting someone saying they are fucking retarded push your point across? No it certainly doesn't. But I'm not trying to make lsd and don't want to bring it into the conversation. What I would appreciate, is not coming into the thread and arguing over who is right and wrong, then saying "I don't know much about the topic you guys are discussing." It would be about as un fair as me coming into another thread and arguing that Sandoz is not illegal, you can't obtain the chemicals they obtained easily because they are on a government watch list, and trying to explain you are wrong about making lsd or ald-52 and explaining you are wrong about the ph of each molecule, and the ph of each pre cursor molecule, and that you know nothing about indole molecular chemistry and bio chemistry, and then claiming I have no idea how those things work myself, but I'm just here to tell you that you sound like an ignorant retard making no point, I can just tell. That is all, thanks -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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meat popsicle Registered: 10/26/13 Posts: 1,039 Loc: Eastern Canadia Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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-------------------- Cluster Headache sufferer? Cluster Busting Veil Tear GIF Flower Pot Grow GIF Mini Mono Tub GIFS "All mushrooms are edible, but some only once." -- Croatian Proverb
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Glass Blower Registered: 07/08/12 Posts: 5,288 Loc: Pee En Double You |
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Quote: Get a fucking life dude hahaha you have no idea my knowledge of chemistry and you know nothing about me. Assuming so just makes you look even more ignorant than you already have in this thread, which is pretty hard to do at this point. Why are you copy and pasting shit from another thread that has nothing to do with this conversation? Because you have lost the argument and you are trying to make personal attacks to make youself look better. Grow up ![]() -------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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BrauMeister Registered: 08/30/04 Posts: 3,262 Loc: International Tr Last seen: 5 years, 8 months |
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Quote: Mashing is chemistry not micro-biology. Enzymes aren't alive, they are complex protein chains. There's lots of good advice in this thread. It's as if you are ignoring it intentionally, and then trying to argue with the people giving it. I don't understand it. -------------------- I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund
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BrauMeister Registered: 08/30/04 Posts: 3,262 Loc: International Tr Last seen: 5 years, 8 months |
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Quote: You've never heard of steam beer? Anchor Steam Beer. -------------------- I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund
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meat popsicle Registered: 10/26/13 Posts: 1,039 Loc: Eastern Canadia Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: I actually told the OP this earlier in this thread... it's just his density is too great to allow this new information in -------------------- Cluster Headache sufferer? Cluster Busting Veil Tear GIF Flower Pot Grow GIF Mini Mono Tub GIFS "All mushrooms are edible, but some only once." -- Croatian Proverb
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BrauMeister Registered: 08/30/04 Posts: 3,262 Loc: International Tr Last seen: 5 years, 8 months |
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Quote: Fermenting beer at a warmer temperature will not make it taste watery, or produce an infection. I don't know why you think that. Quote: There is no "aerobic fermentation", this is called respiration. Yeast behaves quite differently in the presence of oxygen. Since you can't measure your oxygen it will be hard to tell how much to use. Using too much can also be a problem, as it will induce too much yeast growth. Pro-tip, dry yeasts like S-05 do not require oxygenation. Quote: If you have a high bacteria cell count in your wort before you pitch your yeast then yes. However that would mean all your beers are contaminated, and you need better sanitary practices. Quote: Wyeast is a professional laboratory. All their products are delivered to the customer completely sterile. You refrigerate the yeast to make sure it stays dormant until you are ready to use it. Quote: Yeast ALSO prefers higher temperatures. Once again, excessive yeast growth is something brewers want to avoid. Brewers ferment at colder temperatures specifically to inhibit the growth of the yeast, and prevent formation of certain flavour compounds. Outside the beverage industry yeast is propagated at much higher temperatures. -------------------- I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund
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BrauMeister Registered: 08/30/04 Posts: 3,262 Loc: International Tr Last seen: 5 years, 8 months |
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Quote: That's sad it's a neat piece of American history. -------------------- I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: There is no "aerobic fermentation", this is called respiration. Yeast behaves quite differently in the presence of oxygen. Since you can't measure your oxygen it will be hard to tell how much to use. Using too much can also be a problem, as it will induce too much yeast growth. Pro-tip, dry yeasts like S-05 do not require oxygenation. I have no idea what this has to do with what I was addressing. The main things I was saying had to do with 1) correct grain bill, not using a grain bill for an oatmeal beer that consists entirely of oatmeal. Covered on page 1, don't know this discussion got this far 2) not mashing too high or too low, forget dry versus sweet. And honestly arguing with me that a dry beer has nothing to do with ingredients is just plain ignorant. No such thing as a beer made with champagne yeast? Ok, riiight. It's automatically dry simply because of the active nature of the yeast used to make the beer 3) not passing up sterilization, boiling with hops I'm sure isn't simply for flavor, who would make a beer without boiling 4) correct ferment times, 2 weeks to primarily ferment then bottling versus kegging and conditioning or cold crashing etc. Fuck it don't even mention it, this is so far gone from this already, no point in even going into this since this has turned into microbiology versus chemistry and 5) fermentation temperatures, Finally, I'll mostly skip this, but just quote sources I've found saying that YES, IT IS INDEED IMPORTANT TO HYDRATE YEAST. This says otherwise: "2) Proper yeast re-hydration practices (resistance to other shock factors). As mentioned above, sterols and polyunsaturated fatty acids are important factors that the yeast need to create a strong cell membrane. When one rehydrates the yeast in water (along with yeast nutrient), the yeast metabolism is in a respiratory state (consumes oxygen) which allows it to more easily synthesize these resistance factors in its cell wall. If yeast is rehydrated in juice, the yeast are more inclined to have a fermentative metabolism from the get-go, which makes it difficult to synthesize the products necessary to strengthen its cell wall to provide protection from stress during fermentation. The initial content of these resistance factors will become diluted with each generation during the multiplication phase. The yeast multiplication phase corresponds to the consumption of the first 30-40 grams of sugar. Once the initial population of yeast cells reaches 100 million cells/mL of must, the juice is considered completely colonized. This level of colonization does not depend on the initial population of the yeast. So, in order to arrive at 100 million cells/mL, the greater the initial population of yeast, the less they need to replicate to reach their maximum population. Thus, their resistance to stress becomes less diluted, and the yeast are more able to survive in the high alcohol environment near the end of fermentation. This isn’t to say that you should double or triple the recommended dose for yeast in your fermentation. This dilution of stress factors is only seen if the initial amount of dried yeast used is less than 300 mg/L. Thus, the recommended quantity of 400 mg/L on the package of active dry yeast accounts for this." http://enology.umn.edu/2013/05/1 I edited this to remove all the opinions. Forget that I just want to address basic procedures now. I want to leave out profile, and just address basics:a beer can be mashed from 148 to 165 F(not preferred above 155 F). No source says a beer will be ruined unless mashed over 175 removing enzyme activity. A fermentation temperature is required for profile, and of course unless you are an expert on a recipe, I'd imagine a temperature range is beneficial simply to stay within a yeast strains preferred activity profile. Once again that is arguing profile. I would like to think profile should be considered for set and setting. I don't think swinging a pick axe in 18 degree temperature is a good idea without gloves if your hands want to optimally be at temperatures above 55 F to stay healthy. Once again let's skip this as it's causing unhealthy discussion, but then I feel the yeast hydration should be addressed. Dry yeast apparently takes a minute to wake up, and I'm sure not one person here really feels it's best to avoid proper quick 1st stage fermentation. Although this has also caused bad discussion in the realm of "you can over pitch at 700,000,000,000 yeast cells" but assuming we are not talking about cooking the yeast or creating a starter by hydrating 25 yeast packets, then I can only assume that no one would disagree to having too healthy of an initial yeast pitch could they? I mean, the absolutes discussed here and just beyond me. It's like me saying "practically, it's just hard for a person who is starving to really eat too much, food is good" and getting a lot of replies "a persons stomach can rupture, they can go into diabetic shock, they can go into cardiac arrest from blood clots, they can suffocate if they don't swallow the food correctly" well ok, but I'm trying to argue practicality, not absolutes. Thanks ahead of time for understanding that
-------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
Edited by imachavel (02/22/14 12:13 AM)
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: I thought it was a hybrid beer http://answers.yahoo.com/questio You are saying it can only be in one category or another? It's actually called a lager? I guess it's true it's possible: "Check with the supplier. WYeast and White Labs list preferred temperature ranges for all their strains. Most lager strains like 50° to 60° F. Many lagers also benefit from a diacetyl rest - raising the temperature to the high 60's F near the end of fermentation. Like ales, there is much subtlety surrounding lager fermentation. Higher temperatures produce more esters, usually inappropriate in lagers. On the low end of the range the resulting beer is "cleaner"." http://homebrew.stackexchange.co still, I never thought of anchor steam as a lager, this is probably the first I've heard of that. Not really my favourite beer so I probably know little about it. But generally I wouldn't imagine that temperature would produce a "lager" flavour profile type beer I imagine yeast could ferment at 105 F, I'm not really bickering that yeast CAN'T survive out of it's temperature range. I'm just questioning if it's going to produce the type of character of beer you are looking for. I guess bringing infection into the discussion is un necessary. I meant to say more then anything that I wouldn't use a yeast that prefers mid 60s and ferment it at high 70s as there are tons of nutrients and sugars in the wort/fermentor that probably love to start eating something quicker then your yeast will. I can't imagine 52 F versus 64 F having a serious impact, I'm simply saying that sub tropical temperatures are going to be favourable for all sorts of wild shit. I guess I'm just responsible for bringing this so off topic. your temp shouldn't matter as much if you don't really give a shit about your beer profile. And even less so if you really sterilize the shit out of everything, and create a healthy starter. More then anything I think a healthy starter is just really important for any fermentation you do. I wouldn't want to pitch a quarter of a tea spoon of yeast into a beer I'm fermenting at 48 F no matter how cold it is. Fair enough? I think profiles and favourable healthy conditions in general should not be mixed together and/or confused anymore, they are different topics and it's confusing to address one thing without getting really in depth on the philosophy of lactobacillus(I spell that right?) and it's formation versus the profile and condition of what you are trying to create. I just figured in general that it's not a good idea to stray out of the realm of conditions a recipe is calling for. -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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BrauMeister Registered: 08/30/04 Posts: 3,262 Loc: International Tr Last seen: 5 years, 8 months |
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Quote: The dryness of a beer is affected by both the mashing and the fermentation. Mashing too high or too low WILL change the qualities of the beer. However it will not RUIN the beer as you claimed, unless you mash at temperatures way outside the active range of your enzymes. Someone who had excellent mashing techniques would probably start the mash at a lower temperature, to activate the glucanase and protease enzymes before raising the temperature and activating the amylase enzymes. Champagne yeast can be used in beer, but will not "automatically be dry". In fact if you start a beer on a champagne yeast I would anticipate an extremely high final gravity(low attenuation). Champagne yeast is usually used as a "finishing yeast" to ferment the sugars not already consumed by the brewers yeast. This is largely because different yeast strains will ferment different sugars. For instance ale yeast will NOT ferment melibiose, but lager yeasts will. Quote: I certainly agree that boiling is the most common practice for almost all beer. However historically beer was often fermented in the mash. Quote: Why would you need to ferment for 2 weeks if your primary fermentation is complete after 4 days? Do you use a hydrometer? Do you have any idea what your % of attenuation is? Fermentation is micro-biology AND chemistry. Mashing is just chemistry. Quote: It uses a lager yeast so yes, it is a lager. The reason it is considered a hybrid beer is because it is fermented at ale temperatures. The same is true of cream ale, which is a cold fermented ale. Quote: As has been stated before in this thread. Yeast prefers warm temperatures, and likes to propagate at 30C or higher. The fermentation temperatures listed on the package are recommended temperatures for getting the right flavour profile from the yeast. This is done intentionally to inhibit the yeast! Quote:It's not unnecessary, it's nonsense. You either prepared your wort in a sanitary way, or you didn't. If the micro count is high enough in your wort it doesn't matter what temp you ferment at, what yeast you use, or how much you pitch. Your beer WILL be contaminated. Quote: I agree, I'm just pointing our that you've presumed all kinds of thing which are totally wrong. -------------------- I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: that is awesome, you could start with let's say safbrew t-58 and finish with champagne yeast huh? So you think despite pitching and temperature that if a wort is sanitized enough that no infection will occur no matter how long a beer takes to ferment? My carboy actually has a HUGE scratch in on the inside, I wonder if it never gets completely clean no matter how much I clean it now, and bugs are living in the crevice
-------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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BrauMeister Registered: 08/30/04 Posts: 3,262 Loc: International Tr Last seen: 5 years, 8 months |
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Quote: If you're really worried about it buy a microscope. I bet most homebrew has hundreds or thousands of yeast cells for every bacteria. Even professional breweries often have SOME bacteria in their beer. The important thing is to make sure the wort is as sanitary as possible. Then when you pitch the yeast culture it has almost no competing micro-organisms. -------------------- I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: I might just buy a microscope. I've already spent a ton of money on other shit. Bought a brew bucket, didn't like it, so bought a carboy so I could see the process through the glass. It'll be a few months before I can afford a microscope. I think I was a little hasty about creating a powerful starter. I think the problem with yeast that is dehydrated is that you pitch it into a wort then it goes into a fermenter with tons of sugar and gallons to spread out and conquer. From what I've read, that in some cases is the problem with fermenting with dehydrated yeast in the first place. It's basically been in hibernation. Of course it's good to create a starter so you just cool the wort quickly, pitch and seal. But I guess hibernating yeast isn't up to the task of hard manual labour right away, it wants to get up, stretch, have a snack, then get to work. So a better starter would perhaps be a glass of water boiled but cooled, a teaspoon of table sugar, and then let is wake up and hydrate in the water while the mash is heated, the grains are steeped or the starches are removed and enzymes have activated the sugars, and then the grains filtered and the hops boiled. That gives a good two or three hours for the dry yeast to rehydrate. It seems if anything that dehydrated yeast can easily be shocked by tackling too large of a job, causing a lag in fermentation. Once it gets going of course it really gets going, but once again who wants a stalled fermentation fermentation already takes long enough to want to add more time/unwanted variables to the equation. A microscope would be great, but also is there a way to test the ph of your wort along with a hydrometer reading etc.? I'd imagine bacterial activity would change the ph and be a good indication that you didn't boil well enough. However I've also seen advice that once boiled and cooled it's not wise to throw your mixture back into the pot and boil again? Is this accurate advice? Why or why not? Thanks -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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part-time Ninja Registered: 08/17/06 Posts: 2,735 Loc: Loc:Loc:Loc:Loc: Last seen: 5 years, 2 months |
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Quote: a) super retardedly wrong about respiration. b) that's weird, because I measure dissolved O2 is every single wort I brew. Tell me again how I can't measure it? Because I fucking do.
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: How do you retartedly measure O2 respiration mr. everything I say is fucking retarded as shit and you are so offended by everything said the retarded world internet fucking stupid people not mentioning O2 level readings. Maybe you should have mentioned that while you were telling me fermenting above the recommended temperature is fine and won't create any inconsistencies with the recipe. So perhaps fermenting without measuring O2 levels may not be beneficial to fermenting same way not checking gravity levels and doing proper mash temps might effect your final product? It's funny how all these things are so inconsistently un necessary to worry about, minor mash temp differences, fermentation temp differences, but here I had no idea you measured O2 levels in the wort how fucking retarded is that omg fucking retarded I should go die or whatever -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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part-time Ninja Registered: 08/17/06 Posts: 2,735 Loc: Loc:Loc:Loc:Loc: Last seen: 5 years, 2 months |
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It's weird how you take two separate things I said and mash them together and get mad.
I said the respiration thing was wrong. There is anaerobic fermentation. It's just a fact that yeast has a dual phase metabolic cycle and one of them is aerobic, the other anaerobic. warning, the below statement has nothing to do with above Okay hopefully that helped you. I measure O2 with an Anton Parr dissolute gas meter. At home I don't, because on a homebrew scale it's very very very unlikely that you will over oxygenate your wort because very few homebrewers are using pure O2.
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Enlil's Official Story Registered: 10/31/04 Posts: 21,407 Loc: Building 7 |
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Quote: Quote: Get a fucking Anton Paar oxygen meter oh wait doesn't apply for home brewers. Hmm... -------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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thermometer. Hydrometer. got it
O2 meter. will get it. perfect mash temperature, perfect fermentation temperature, ideal beer. Not perfect, not ideal, but not ruined. Not sterilized, absolutely not ideal. Got it. Anyone against plastic fermentation buckets? Sort of off the subject, but as long as we are talking sterilization I don't like the environment plastic creates, I never really feel it's 100% clean. A carboy might be hard to clean to get inside, but I like glass a lot better -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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Enlil's Official Story Registered: 10/31/04 Posts: 21,407 Loc: Building 7 |
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Quote: Now there's the big mouth glass bubbler with a mouth the size of a large mayonnaise container. Personally with a carboy brush and oxyclean life goes on with glass. I have started moving them around in dairy crates now two of which fit side by side in my big top and bottom fridge. The one with the freezer on the bottom that I can see the carboys really easily in. Amazing how much temperature my Oatmeal stout with extra oatmeal I made using two yeasts one Pacman one Neobrittania 1945 a true top cropping yeast got the one fermenting at 65 the Neo at 67 with the clever use of a blanket in the refrigerator mentioned earlier. The fridge itself is at 56 inside now and the carboys that much warmer. They have warmed the fridge up 6 degrees as they have dropped 6 degrees. Temperature in, temperature out. Blood in, blood out. -------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Interesting, so your fermentation warmed the fridge up 6 degrees huh? I never thought of that. A fermentation at 72 F might very well warm the carboy up to 78 F huh? Way too high for a recipe that is supposed to be fermented at 68 F.
I just made some wine with this champagne yeast, and am loving the character this champagne yeast has given this wine. In a few weeks when I've drinken all this wine, I'm thinking of doing a recipe called a gray pale and using champagne yeast, it will apparently ferment very dryly, it uses one grain bill: 6.5# Pale malt It also uses a high mash at 157 F and then a double sparge. But the cool thing, you are supposed to add fruit to the recipe in the later stage of fermentation, to sweeten it up. I can't wait to try it, but a little broke at the moment, I have to finish this wine I think, before I start on another beer. I'll look into that big mouth glass bubbler you mentioned -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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Enlil's Official Story Registered: 10/31/04 Posts: 21,407 Loc: Building 7 |
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Quote: The fridge was at 50 the carboys 72. The carboys cooled to 66 while the fridge warmed to 56. But remember outside the fridge it's like 40 at night. So those yeast are keeping that fridge warmer than it would otherwise be. Keeping themselves warm by eating sugar and shitting alcohol. Good boys. -------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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BrauMeister Registered: 08/30/04 Posts: 3,262 Loc: International Tr Last seen: 5 years, 8 months |
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Quote: ![]() Fermentation Quote: Aerobic Respiration.
-------------------- I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk



I had 50 pounds and brewed at 145, 155, 165, 175 everything you can think of. The best I got it to taste I put the grains in a blender and blended them into powder, soaked them with the grain bag for an hour in cold water, then boiled the remaining wash with hops for 30 minutes, then transferred cooled and pitched the yeast.
And again, you are wrong there. Not all beer fermented cool are lagers and vice versa. 

unless you want to
yo

what a sound statement 

