Home | Community | Message Board

MushroomMan Mycology
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineApJunkie
part-time Ninja
Male


Registered: 08/17/06
Posts: 2,735
Loc: Loc:Loc:Loc:Loc:Loc:
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: imachavel]
    #19587946 - 02/18/14 11:31 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

ApJunkie said:
Quote:

imachavel said:

We have established that if a recipe says to ferment a beer between 68 F and 72 F, that fermenting at 64 F or 74 F might entirely ruin the beer.




I completely disagree.  100% absolutely.






what does this mean? 100% absolutely it will? Or 100% absolutely you disagree? Am I supposed to read this as if it's not just sarcasm? :facepalm:

while we are on the subject, why do you feel over carbonation will ruin a beer if the carbonation can be released? Did I say "seal a container so no c02 will escape?"

second, what is "over pitching yeast"? Adding 2 or 3 yeast packets instead of 1? Or are you assuming I'm talking about adding 40 yeast packets?











You know what, never mind. Forget I asked ever. I get the feeling most people here have made this a career, or very much thought about it. A simple discussion turned into "you think you know everything and just keep saying shit that means nothing." You are right, I do know everything, which was why I created a thread asking questions. Well, this is pretty much every shroomery discussion, there is no point in asking something unless you have 99% of all the facts together and are just curious about the smallest most insignificant detail.





I was not one who accused you of knowing everything, and as such I'm willing to continue the conversation with you if you'd like.

Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

ApJunkie said:
Quote:

imachavel said:

We have established that if a recipe says to ferment a beer between 68 F and 72 F, that fermenting at 64 F or 74 F might entirely ruin the beer.




I completely disagree.  100% absolutely.






what does this mean? 100% absolutely it will? Or 100% absolutely you disagree? Am I supposed to read this as if it's not just sarcasm?




This is what made people think you're a bit nuts, though. I said I completely disagree and somehow to convolute my next sentence to read as though I agree with you? That's weird man.

To clarify; I completely disagree that fermenting a beer outside the recipe specifications will completely ruin it (especially at a temperature as benign as 74F).

Quote:

while we are on the subject, why do you feel over carbonation will ruin a beer if the carbonation can be released? Did I say "seal a container so no c02 will escape?"




I don't really understand where you got that from. Overcarbonation if the beer can be released? I'm not sure what you're referencing, and that's not really a belief of mine. And also no, you didn't say that either. I'm very very lost here.

Quote:

second, what is "over pitching yeast"? Adding 2 or 3 yeast packets instead of 1? Or are you assuming I'm talking about adding 40 yeast packets?





A proper pitch rate is 1 million [living, active, viable] yeast cells per mL of wort, per degree plato for ales, and 1.5 million for lagers. What that means is that if you are brewing an ale with an OG of 11 degrees plato, and your volume was 19,000mL(~5gal), you'd need 209 Billion active cells for a proper pitch. Any less than that is considered underpitching, around 2-3 times that quantity is considered over pitching.


Edited by ApJunkie (02/18/14 11:32 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,372
Loc: You get banned for saying that Flag
Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: ApJunkie]
    #19588931 - 02/19/14 08:02 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ApJunkie said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

ApJunkie said:


I completely disagree.  100% absolutely.






what does this mean? 100% absolutely it will? Or 100% absolutely you disagree? Am I supposed to read this as if it's not just sarcasm?




This is what made people think you're a bit nuts, though. I said I completely disagree and somehow to convolute my next sentence to read as though I agree with you? That's weird man.

To clarify; I completely disagree that fermenting a beer outside the recipe specifications will completely ruin it (especially at a temperature as benign as 74F).






why not? If a beer is supposed to be fermented at 68 F, and it ends up being fermented at 74 F, that is 6 degrees above the recommended temperature. It's as if a mash was supposed to be done at 152 F and it's done at 158 F, apparently at that setting you'll get tons of unwanted ferment able sugars. This is microbiology right? What happens if a ferment is done at 6 degrees above recommended temperature?

1) it develops all sorts of unwanted esters and flavors on it's own, as yeast, a fungus that wants to stay cool it's basically going into a different phase of fermentation

2) despite everyone disagreeing with sterilization, the truth is a beer will keep in the fridge for years(if very un optimally) BECAUSE of the alcohol ratio/volume. If a beer is fermenting at 74 F, perhaps at 74 F there are TONS of other bacteria eating sugars at that temperature that just LOVE it, while the yeast propogates a little more slowly, and doesn't have a chance to create a condition it can compete completely against anything else at. Will it for sure stall? Maybe not because of that temperature it won't, stalling usually happens in cold temperature, not warmer, but competing with tons of other micro bacteria I'm sure doesn't help the yeast propogate happily and freely.

Just as when I say "pshh, a mash temp of 162 instead of 152 won't ruin a beer, it might not be optimal but it won't ruin it" and people reply with "well, how do you know, have you actually tried a 45 minutes mash at 162 instead of 152? It very well COULD ruin it" I say to you:

have you tried 21 days of fermentation at 74 F for a recipe that desires 68 F temp? Perhaps if you'd made the mistake, you'd agree. It might not ruin the beer entirely, the finished product may taste quite a bit like beer, but I'm SURE it's not optimal for a great beer unless you are just ok with a weird banana peel tasting OK beer.


Quote:

ApJunkie said:
Quote:

imachavel said:

while we are on the subject, why do you feel over carbonation will ruin a beer if the carbonation can be released? Did I say "seal a container so no c02 will escape?"




I don't really understand where you got that from. Overcarbonation if the beer can be released? I'm not sure what you're referencing, and that's not really a belief of mine. And also no, you didn't say that either. I'm very very lost here.






I simply meant too much carbonation can be adjusted by releasing some of the carbonation, even if undesirable, it's not impossible, is all

Quote:

ApJunkie said:
Quote:

imachavel said:

]second, what is "over pitching yeast"? Adding 2 or 3 yeast packets instead of 1? Or are you assuming I'm talking about adding 40 yeast packets?





A proper pitch rate is 1 million [living, active, viable] yeast cells per mL of wort, per degree plato for ales, and 1.5 million for lagers. What that means is that if you are brewing an ale with an OG of 11 degrees plato, and your volume was 19,000mL(~5gal), you'd need 209 Billion active cells for a proper pitch. Any less than that is considered underpitching, around 2-3 times that quantity is considered over pitching.




209 billion, that sounds like quite a few. I would imagine it's very possible to over pitch yeast. I wouldn't "want some beer with my yeast" by any means, where there is more yeast then water or sugar. It does however, at 209 billion, sound very hard to over pitch with a 5 gallon recipe with simply a few extra packets is all. I've read some recipes online that state: feel free to use up to 8 yeast packets on this one to get a good healthy fermentation.

Of course someone doing this for a long time can re use their old yeast at the bottom, mix it with sugar and stir it vigorously for two hours and get a really strong vigorous starter going. I suppose temperature would be less important IF you automatically hard more then 1 billion yeast cells to start with. 1 billion is ok, but now I feel optimal fermentation temperature is even MORE detrimental if the yeast is going to get a really slow start.

Make sense?


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLiquidGlass
Glass Blower
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
Loc: Pee En Double You
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: imachavel]
    #19589694 - 02/19/14 12:23 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

I do not know much about brewing, but reading this thread, it appears you are making yourself look severely foolish and ignorant


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,372
Loc: You get banned for saying that Flag
Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19590898 - 02/19/14 05:21 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
I do not know much about brewing, but reading this thread, it appears you are making yourself look severely foolish and ignorant




:stoned: what a sound statement

:tongue: I do not know much about converting lysergic acid to lsd, but after reading this thread:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19568212#19568212

it would appear your just randomly pop into threads and say things that would make you look severely foolish and ignorant


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineApJunkie
part-time Ninja
Male


Registered: 08/17/06
Posts: 2,735
Loc: Loc:Loc:Loc:Loc:Loc:
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: imachavel]
    #19594092 - 02/20/14 10:43 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
why not? If a beer is supposed to be fermented at 68 F, and it ends up being fermented at 74 F, that is 6 degrees above the recommended temperature. It's as if a mash was supposed to be done at 152 F and it's done at 158 F, apparently at that setting you'll get tons of unwanted ferment able sugars. This is microbiology right? What happens if a ferment is done at 6 degrees above recommended temperature?







First off, a higher mash temp makes for more UNfermentable sugars, not "unwanted ferment able sugars."

Second, If a ferment is done 6 degrees above the recommended temp then the beer will be different, but will very likely still be delicious. You said "completely ruined" and that's where I disagree with you.

Quote:

1) it develops all sorts of unwanted esters and flavors on it's own, as yeast, a fungus that wants to stay cool it's basically going into a different phase of fermentation





Wrong. Who says yeast "wants to stay cool?" I ferment Belgian style ales in the upper 80's all the time and they're fucking delicious.  Also, "different phase of fermentation"? That's complete gibberish when taking about wort temperature. There are two phases for yeast metabolism; aerobic and anaerobic, neither have fuckall to do with temperature.

Quote:

2) despite everyone disagreeing with sterilization, the truth is a beer will keep in the fridge for years(if very un optimally) BECAUSE of the alcohol ratio/volume.




No goddammit. This one makes me mad because I already told you that the alcohol in beer has ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOTHING TO DO WITH OUTCOMPETING OTHER ORGANISMS.  It's a byproduct of metabolism (it's YEAST POOP) and it is NOT a mechanism of survival.  Stop stating shit that's wrong as though it's a fact. 


Quote:

I simply meant too much carbonation can be adjusted by releasing some of the carbonation, even if undesirable, it's not impossible, is all




Yes this is true. I still don't understand where this entered the conversation though. Are you talking about fermenting under pressure still, or are you talking about if you overcarbonate a finished beer in a keg?

Quote:

Of course someone doing this for a long time can re use their old yeast at the bottom, mix it with sugar and stir it vigorously for two hours and get a really strong vigorous starter going. I suppose temperature would be less important IF you automatically hard more then 1 billion yeast cells to start with. 1 billion is ok, but now I feel optimal fermentation temperature is even MORE detrimental if the yeast is going to get a really slow start.

Make sense?





Welp, that's retarded. That's not how a starter is made, and everything there is wrong. If you're talking about pitching fresh wort on top of the yeast cake from the last batch then go ahead, but don't add sugar and "stir it vigorously for two hours" or you will certainly kill your yeast and make a disgusting beer.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLiquidGlass
Glass Blower
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
Loc: Pee En Double You
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: imachavel]
    #19594254 - 02/20/14 11:31 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
I do not know much about brewing, but reading this thread, it appears you are making yourself look severely foolish and ignorant




:stoned: what a sound statement

:tongue: I do not know much about converting lysergic acid to lsd, but after reading this thread:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19568212#19568212

it would appear your just randomly pop into threads and say things that would make you look severely foolish and ignorant





Well I do happen to know much about synthesizing LSD so your argument here is pretty irrelevant LMFAO  And it really has nothing to do with this thread.

A good sign of when someone lost the argument is when they stop arguing their point and start trying to make personal attacks

There is not one person in this thread who agrees with you. that should tell you something  :shrug:

Good troll post though lol  :thumbup:


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,372
Loc: You get banned for saying that Flag
Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: ApJunkie]
    #19598751 - 02/21/14 09:34 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ApJunkie said:
Quote:

imachavel said:


1) it develops all sorts of unwanted esters and flavors on it's own, as yeast, a fungus that wants to stay cool it's basically going into a different phase of fermentation





Wrong. Who says yeast "wants to stay cool?" I ferment Belgian style ales in the upper 80's all the time and they're fucking delicious.  Also, "different phase of fermentation"? That's complete gibberish when taking about wort temperature. There are two phases for yeast metabolism; aerobic and anaerobic, neither have fuckall to do with temperature.





first off, I'm not sure what's up with all the very derogatory comments coming into this thread such as "Welp, that's retarded" seems un necessary.

Now to address what you are saying, I feel as though you are arguing technical aspects of things I'm not addressing in certain ways. You are saying surely

1) there are Belgian beers that ferment in the 80s that come out just fine, so temperature is not a necessity when fermenting



First of all, that is very surely a specific recipe made with a specific type of yeast, I can almost guarantee you, if you try to ferment a lager at 70 F you will almost surely ruin the beer. Of course, it will ferment, but the character and profile will be nothing to what you are used to experiencing with beer, it'll be a beerish waterish drink, and most likely infected. Perhaps arguing 74 F versus 68 F is a bit too specific, although I'm very doubtful what you call "delicious" will come out. It may come out as a good beer not below the standard of Bud Light, but if you are trying to ferment a high alcohol volume IPA with a less sour aromatic hop ratio, a beer that is supposed to be strong, but sweet and pale, and you end up with a sour beer that tastes like it's been in a warm closet for 4 months even after putting it in the fridge, with the character and profile more reminding you of a pilsner then a pale ale, is that a success? Does fermenting at a temperature un favorable for what the yeast considers favourable for the recipe guaranteed to cause massive off flavour profile, cloudyness, infection? No, but it certainly isn't helping the environment you are trying to create

2) there are aerobic(needing 02) phases and anaerobic phases (not needing c02, producing high volumes of c02 and alcohol at this point)



of course there are. And the aerobic phase and anaerobic phase should happen in the correct phases they are supposed to aren't they? If not enough oxygen is obtained, then surely the yeast starts slowly, doesn't have a chance to propagate fast enough, and is prone to fighting infection right? We are on the same idea that there are other micro organisms and sugar and water will not indefinitely be a prime environment for a specific yeast that wants to make your beer and eventually these other organisms will compete for the sugar, and nutrients provided when mashing/sparging the grains right? Maybe saying that alcohol is made on purpose by yeast to sterilize the environment is wrong, but the fact is the alcohol does sterilize the environment and makes it possible for the yeast to continue after a point, maybe even if it's the last final phase of fermentation, and not the 1st stage of fermentation. At the very least, I'd hate to think about sugar water sitting in the fridge with hops in it for a year in a bottle and opening it and expecting a beer instead of some weird shitty tasting bacteria water.

Of course some sugars preserve themselves, honey for example. But honey preserves itself why? Because it's unhydrated it's anhydrous the liquid itself is not h20, mix honey with water and it may be more resistant to bacteria then just sugar and water but not permanently resistant anymore. Same with jelly and jam, they sit on the shelf preserved because the sugar content is high and the h20 content is too low for bacteria to exist without enough hydration.

3) creating a yeast starter the wrong way will kill the yeast, so why are you obsessed with creating a more powerful starter?



Well should no yeast starter be made? Is pitching one packet of dry yeast enough each and every time? There is more then just Wyeast you know I'm sure. If we aren't going to be as careful about fermentation temperature etc. then wouldn't it be wise to create a high yeast cell count so propagation goes healthy without a hitch? I have seen starters where you mix some sugar in a bowl with some water and stir the yeast in and leave the bowl of water there to propagate yeast cells vigorously for a few hours while you do your mash and boil and cooling and prepare a good yeast starter for pitching. Sure, if you put it in a blender and leave it on for two hours yes your yeast will die. But I've never heard anyone not recommend yeast starters this way, you are the first I've heard. In fact that is basically what Wyeast does, it contains a sugar packet that you puncture and the yeast and the water mix together and it creates a healthy starter. In fact Wyeast is supposed to be refrigerated until opened and mixed, isn't that so the yeast isn't incubating in warm water with other micro bacteria that enjoy to incubate as well?

So on that note, no I'm not saying that vigorous bacteria ONLY propagates itself in warm water in the mid 70s, and not in colder water in the mid 60s. But I figured it's safe to assume a recipe for beer saying to ferment in the mid 60s and not high 70s means the yeast SHOULD perform better in the mid 60s, and I was under the general impression that some of the most vigorous micro bacteria prefers high temperatures. I was under the impression that this is the reason food is kept in cold storage, a bacteria that decomposes food would surely love to do it in 90 F as opposed to 52 F, or am I wrong? And if temperature is not as necessary to fermenting as you say, then I'd imagine creating a healthy yeast starter to ensure a vigorous and healthy fermentation would be even more important.

I am not trying to sound sarcastic, I'm simply addressing these issues as you have said them. I feel you are arguing that "these factors are not as important as you make them." But is that saying they are not important at all?

If a chicken egg incubates at 95 F(random example I don't know what exact temp they incubate at), but let's say they do, and you have chicken eggs next to some grains, and you want the grains to sit in a sauce and get flavor, and you don't want the chicken eggs hatching and the chickens eating the grain, wouldn't it be smart to keep the eggs and grain at 68 F and not get too high up there? I doubt you'd ever put chicken eggs and grains soaking in a sauce for flavor next to each other :lol: as the chicken eggs are an unwanted variable, but surely if it was and un controllable variable in the slightest bit, keeping the proper fermentation temps sure wouldn't hurt would they? :shrug: best I could do, but still seems appropriate


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


Edited by imachavel (02/21/14 01:49 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,372
Loc: You get banned for saying that Flag
Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19598773 - 02/21/14 09:40 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
I do not know much about brewing, but reading this thread, it appears you are making yourself look severely foolish and ignorant




:stoned: what a sound statement

:tongue: I do not know much about converting lysergic acid to lsd, but after reading this thread:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19568212#19568212

it would appear your just randomly pop into threads and say things that would make you look severely foolish and ignorant





Well I do happen to know much about synthesizing LSD so your argument here is pretty irrelevant LMFAO  And it really has nothing to do with this thread.

A good sign of when someone lost the argument is when they stop arguing their point and start trying to make personal attacks

There is not one person in this thread who agrees with you. that should tell you something  :shrug:

Good troll post though lol  :thumbup:




hate to address another thread but:

"Also, anyone who is actually making or planning on making LSD would definitely not be posting about it on an internet drug forum and if you are, sorry to say but you are fucking retarded"

sure doesn't seem like a statement that justifies you winning an argument. There are probably people all the time who plan to make lsd, and ask questions on a drug forum. Is it smart? No. Are those chemicals under watch lists by the government? Yes. Do you need to break off the amide from lysergic acid amide, then attach diethylamide to lysergic acid amide in synthesis which should slightly change the ph of what was previously lysergic acid amide? It's irrelevant. Does insulting someone saying they are fucking retarded push your point across? No it certainly doesn't.

But I'm not trying to make lsd and don't want to bring it into the conversation. What I would appreciate, is not coming into the thread and arguing over who is right and wrong, then saying "I don't know much about the topic you guys are discussing." It would be about as un fair as me coming into another thread and arguing that Sandoz is not illegal, you can't obtain the chemicals they obtained easily because they are on a government watch list, and trying to explain you are wrong about making lsd or ald-52 and explaining you are wrong about the ph of each molecule, and the ph of each pre cursor molecule, and that you know nothing about indole molecular chemistry and bio chemistry, and then claiming I have no idea how those things work myself, but I'm just here to tell you that you sound like an ignorant retard making no point, I can just tell. That is all, thanks


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineurthtown
meat popsicle
Male


Registered: 10/26/13
Posts: 1,039
Loc: Eastern Canadia Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: imachavel]
    #19600317 - 02/21/14 04:05 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Look. In the time since I first tried to help you (feb 1st) I made this:



--------------------
Cluster Headache sufferer? Cluster Busting :thumbup:
Veil Tear GIF
Flower Pot Grow GIF
Mini Mono Tub GIFS

"All mushrooms are edible, but some only once."
-- Croatian Proverb



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLiquidGlass
Glass Blower
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
Loc: Pee En Double You
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: imachavel]
    #19601189 - 02/21/14 06:54 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
I do not know much about brewing, but reading this thread, it appears you are making yourself look severely foolish and ignorant




:stoned: what a sound statement

:tongue: I do not know much about converting lysergic acid to lsd, but after reading this thread:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19568212#19568212

it would appear your just randomly pop into threads and say things that would make you look severely foolish and ignorant





Well I do happen to know much about synthesizing LSD so your argument here is pretty irrelevant LMFAO  And it really has nothing to do with this thread.

A good sign of when someone lost the argument is when they stop arguing their point and start trying to make personal attacks

There is not one person in this thread who agrees with you. that should tell you something  :shrug:

Good troll post though lol  :thumbup:




hate to address another thread but:

"Also, anyone who is actually making or planning on making LSD would definitely not be posting about it on an internet drug forum and if you are, sorry to say but you are fucking retarded"

sure doesn't seem like a statement that justifies you winning an argument. There are probably people all the time who plan to make lsd, and ask questions on a drug forum. Is it smart? No. Are those chemicals under watch lists by the government? Yes. Do you need to break off the amide from lysergic acid amide, then attach diethylamide to lysergic acid amide in synthesis which should slightly change the ph of what was previously lysergic acid amide? It's irrelevant. Does insulting someone saying they are fucking retarded push your point across? No it certainly doesn't.

But I'm not trying to make lsd and don't want to bring it into the conversation. What I would appreciate, is not coming into the thread and arguing over who is right and wrong, then saying "I don't know much about the topic you guys are discussing." It would be about as un fair as me coming into another thread and arguing that Sandoz is not illegal, you can't obtain the chemicals they obtained easily because they are on a government watch list, and trying to explain you are wrong about making lsd or ald-52 and explaining you are wrong about the ph of each molecule, and the ph of each pre cursor molecule, and that you know nothing about indole molecular chemistry and bio chemistry, and then claiming I have no idea how those things work myself, but I'm just here to tell you that you sound like an ignorant retard making no point, I can just tell. That is all, thanks




Get a fucking life dude hahaha you have no idea my knowledge of chemistry and you know nothing about me. Assuming so just makes you look even more ignorant than you already have in this thread, which is pretty hard to do at this point.

Why are you copy and pasting shit from another thread that has nothing to do with this conversation? Because you have lost the argument and you are trying to make personal attacks to make youself look better. Grow up


:trollhide:


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineHeffy
BrauMeister
 User Gallery


Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 3,262
Loc: International Traveller
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: imachavel]
    #19601726 - 02/21/14 09:30 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

It's as if a mash was supposed to be done at 152 F and it's done at 158 F, apparently at that setting you'll get tons of unwanted ferment able sugars. This is microbiology right?




Mashing is chemistry not micro-biology. Enzymes aren't alive, they are complex protein chains.

There's lots of good advice in this thread. It's as if you are ignoring it intentionally, and then trying to argue with the people giving it. I don't understand it.


--------------------
I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineHeffy
BrauMeister
 User Gallery


Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 3,262
Loc: International Traveller
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: imachavel]
    #19601736 - 02/21/14 09:32 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

First of all, that is very surely a specific recipe made with a specific type of yeast, I can almost guarantee you, if you try to ferment a lager at 70 F you will almost surely ruin the beer.




You've never heard of steam beer?
Anchor Steam Beer.


--------------------
I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineurthtown
meat popsicle
Male


Registered: 10/26/13
Posts: 1,039
Loc: Eastern Canadia Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: Heffy]
    #19601757 - 02/21/14 09:39 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Heffy said:
Quote:

First of all, that is very surely a specific recipe made with a specific type of yeast, I can almost guarantee you, if you try to ferment a lager at 70 F you will almost surely ruin the beer.




You've never heard of steam beer?
Anchor Steam Beer.




I actually told the OP this earlier in this thread... it's just his density is too great to allow this new information in


--------------------
Cluster Headache sufferer? Cluster Busting :thumbup:
Veil Tear GIF
Flower Pot Grow GIF
Mini Mono Tub GIFS

"All mushrooms are edible, but some only once."
-- Croatian Proverb



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineHeffy
BrauMeister
 User Gallery


Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 3,262
Loc: International Traveller
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: imachavel]
    #19601821 - 02/21/14 09:56 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Of course, it will ferment, but the character and profile will be nothing to what you are used to experiencing with beer, it'll be a beerish waterish drink, and most likely infected.



Fermenting beer at a warmer temperature will not make it taste watery, or produce an infection. I don't know why you think that.

Quote:

of course there are. And the aerobic phase and anaerobic phase should happen in the correct phases they are supposed to aren't they? If not enough oxygen is obtained, then surely the yeast starts slowly, doesn't have a chance to propagate fast enough, and is prone to fighting infection right?



There is no "aerobic fermentation", this is called respiration. Yeast behaves quite differently in the presence of oxygen. Since you can't measure your oxygen it will be hard to tell how much to use. Using too much can also be a problem, as it will induce too much yeast growth. Pro-tip, dry yeasts like S-05 do not require oxygenation.

Quote:

We are on the same idea that there are other micro organisms and sugar and water will not indefinitely be a prime environment for a specific yeast that wants to make your beer and eventually these other organisms will compete for the sugar, and nutrients provided when mashing/sparging the grains right?




If you have a high bacteria cell count in your wort before you pitch your yeast then yes. However that would mean all your beers are contaminated, and you need better sanitary practices.
Quote:

In fact Wyeast is supposed to be refrigerated until opened and mixed, isn't that so the yeast isn't incubating in warm water with other micro bacteria that enjoy to incubate as well?




Wyeast is a professional laboratory. All their products are delivered to the customer completely sterile. You refrigerate the yeast to make sure it stays dormant until you are ready to use it.
Quote:

But I figured it's safe to assume a recipe for beer saying to ferment in the mid 60s and not high 70s means the yeast SHOULD perform better in the mid 60s, and I was under the general impression that some of the most vigorous micro bacteria prefers high temperatures




Yeast ALSO prefers higher temperatures. Once again, excessive yeast growth is something brewers want to avoid. Brewers ferment at colder temperatures specifically to inhibit the growth of the yeast, and prevent formation of certain flavour compounds. Outside the beverage industry yeast is propagated at much higher temperatures.


--------------------
I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineHeffy
BrauMeister
 User Gallery


Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 3,262
Loc: International Traveller
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: urthtown]
    #19601837 - 02/21/14 10:00 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

urthtown said:
Quote:

Heffy said:
Quote:

First of all, that is very surely a specific recipe made with a specific type of yeast, I can almost guarantee you, if you try to ferment a lager at 70 F you will almost surely ruin the beer.




You've never heard of steam beer?
Anchor Steam Beer.




I actually told the OP this earlier in this thread... it's just his density is too great to allow this new information in



That's sad it's a neat piece of American history.


--------------------
I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,372
Loc: You get banned for saying that Flag
Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: Heffy]
    #19602203 - 02/21/14 11:29 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Heffy said:

of course there are. And the aerobic phase and anaerobic phase should happen in the correct phases they are supposed to aren't they? If not enough oxygen is obtained, then surely the yeast starts slowly, doesn't have a chance to propagate fast enough, and is prone to fighting infection right?




There is no "aerobic fermentation", this is called respiration. Yeast behaves quite differently in the presence of oxygen. Since you can't measure your oxygen it will be hard to tell how much to use. Using too much can also be a problem, as it will induce too much yeast growth. Pro-tip, dry yeasts like S-05 do not require oxygenation.






I have no idea what this has to do with what I was addressing.



The main things I was saying had to do with

1) correct grain bill, not using a grain bill for an oatmeal beer that consists entirely of oatmeal. Covered on page 1, don't know this discussion got this far

2) not mashing too high or too low, forget dry versus sweet. And honestly arguing with me that a dry beer has nothing to do with ingredients is just plain ignorant. No such thing as a beer made with champagne yeast? Ok, riiight. It's automatically dry simply because of the active nature of the yeast used to make the beer

3) not passing up sterilization, boiling with hops I'm sure isn't simply for flavor, who would make a beer without boiling

4) correct ferment times, 2 weeks to primarily ferment then bottling versus kegging and conditioning or cold crashing etc. Fuck it don't even mention it, this is so far gone from this already, no point in even going into this since this has turned into microbiology versus chemistry

and 5) fermentation temperatures,

Finally, I'll mostly skip this, but just quote sources I've found saying that YES, IT IS INDEED IMPORTANT TO HYDRATE YEAST. This says otherwise:



"2) Proper yeast re-hydration practices (resistance to other shock factors).

As mentioned above, sterols and polyunsaturated fatty acids are important factors that the yeast need to create a strong cell membrane. When one rehydrates the yeast in water (along with yeast nutrient), the yeast metabolism is in a respiratory state (consumes oxygen) which allows it to more easily synthesize these resistance factors in its cell wall. If yeast is rehydrated in juice, the yeast are more inclined to have a fermentative metabolism from the get-go, which makes it difficult to synthesize the products necessary to strengthen its cell wall to provide protection from stress during fermentation. The initial content of these resistance factors will become diluted with each generation during the multiplication phase.

The yeast multiplication phase corresponds to the consumption of the first 30-40 grams of sugar. Once the initial population of yeast cells reaches 100 million cells/mL of must, the juice is considered completely colonized. This level of colonization does not depend on the initial population of the yeast. So, in order to arrive at 100 million cells/mL, the greater the initial population of yeast, the less they need to replicate to reach their maximum population. Thus, their resistance to stress becomes less diluted, and the yeast are more able to survive in the high alcohol environment near the end of fermentation. This isn’t to say that you should double or triple the recommended dose for yeast in your fermentation. This dilution of stress factors is only seen if the initial amount of dried yeast used is less than 300 mg/L. Thus, the recommended quantity of 400 mg/L on the package of active dry yeast accounts for this."

http://enology.umn.edu/2013/05/17/keys-to-successful-fermentation-part-1/



I edited this to remove all the opinions. :lol: Forget that I just want to address basic procedures now. :shrug: I want to leave out profile, and just address basics:

a beer can be mashed from 148 to 165 F(not preferred above 155 F). No source says a beer will be ruined unless mashed over 175 removing enzyme activity. A fermentation temperature is required for profile, and of course unless you are an expert on a recipe, I'd imagine a temperature range is beneficial simply to stay within a yeast strains preferred activity profile. Once again that is arguing profile. I would like to think profile should be considered for set and setting. I don't think swinging a pick axe in 18 degree temperature is a good idea without gloves if your hands want to optimally be at temperatures above 55 F to stay healthy. Once again let's skip this as it's causing unhealthy discussion, but then I feel the yeast hydration should be addressed. Dry yeast apparently takes a minute to wake up, and I'm sure not one person here really feels it's best to avoid proper quick 1st stage fermentation. Although this has also caused bad discussion in the realm of "you can over pitch at 700,000,000,000 yeast cells" but assuming we are not talking about cooking the yeast or creating a starter by hydrating 25 yeast packets, then I can only assume that no one would disagree to having too healthy of an initial yeast pitch could they?

I mean, the absolutes discussed here and just beyond me. It's like me saying "practically, it's just hard for a person who is starving to really eat too much, food is good" and getting a lot of replies "a persons stomach can rupture, they can go into diabetic shock, they can go into cardiac arrest from blood clots, they can suffocate if they don't swallow the food correctly"

:rolleyes: well ok, but I'm trying to argue practicality, not absolutes. Thanks ahead of time for understanding that


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


Edited by imachavel (02/22/14 12:13 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,372
Loc: You get banned for saying that Flag
Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: Heffy]
    #19602296 - 02/22/14 12:00 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Heffy said:
Quote:

First of all, that is very surely a specific recipe made with a specific type of yeast, I can almost guarantee you, if you try to ferment a lager at 70 F you will almost surely ruin the beer.




You've never heard of steam beer?
Anchor Steam Beer.




I thought it was a hybrid beer

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070727145927AA5d74N

You are saying it can only be in one category or another? It's actually called a lager? I guess it's true it's possible:

"Check with the supplier. WYeast and White Labs list preferred temperature ranges for all their strains. Most lager strains like 50° to 60° F. Many lagers also benefit from a diacetyl rest - raising the temperature to the high 60's F near the end of fermentation.

Like ales, there is much subtlety surrounding lager fermentation. Higher temperatures produce more esters, usually inappropriate in lagers. On the low end of the range the resulting beer is "cleaner"."

http://homebrew.stackexchange.com/questions/1305/at-what-temperature-should-a-lager-be-fermented

still, I never thought of anchor steam as a lager, this is probably the first I've heard of that. Not really my favourite beer so I probably know little about it. But generally I wouldn't imagine that temperature would produce a "lager" flavour profile type beer


I imagine yeast could ferment at 105 F, I'm not really bickering that yeast CAN'T survive out of it's temperature range. I'm just questioning if it's going to produce the type of character of beer you are looking for. I guess bringing infection into the discussion is un necessary. I meant to say more then anything that I wouldn't use a yeast that prefers mid 60s and ferment it at high 70s as there are tons of nutrients and sugars in the wort/fermentor that probably love to start eating something quicker then your yeast will. I can't imagine 52 F versus 64 F having a serious impact, I'm simply saying that sub tropical temperatures are going to be favourable for all sorts of wild shit.

I guess I'm just responsible for bringing this so off topic. your temp shouldn't matter as much if you don't really give a shit about your beer profile. And even less so if you really sterilize the shit out of everything, and create a healthy starter. More then anything I think a healthy starter is just really important for any fermentation you do. I wouldn't want to pitch a quarter of a tea spoon of yeast into a beer I'm fermenting at 48 F no matter how cold it is. Fair enough? I think profiles and favourable healthy conditions in general should not be mixed together and/or confused anymore, they are different topics and it's confusing to address one thing without getting really in depth on the philosophy of lactobacillus(I spell that right?) and it's formation versus the profile and condition of what you are trying to create.

I just figured in general that it's not a good idea to stray out of the realm of conditions a recipe is calling for.


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineHeffy
BrauMeister
 User Gallery


Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 3,262
Loc: International Traveller
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: imachavel]
    #19602886 - 02/22/14 06:25 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

not mashing too high or too low, forget dry versus sweet. And honestly arguing with me that a dry beer has nothing to do with ingredients is just plain ignorant. No such thing as a beer made with champagne yeast? Ok, riiight. It's automatically dry simply because of the active nature of the yeast used to make the beer



The dryness of a beer is affected by both the mashing and the fermentation. Mashing too high or too low WILL change the qualities of the beer. However it will not RUIN the beer as you claimed, unless you mash at temperatures way outside the active range of your enzymes. Someone who had excellent mashing techniques would probably start the mash at a lower temperature, to activate the glucanase and protease enzymes before raising the temperature and activating the amylase enzymes.

Champagne yeast can be used in beer, but will not "automatically be dry". In fact if you start a beer on a champagne yeast I would anticipate an extremely high final gravity(low attenuation). Champagne yeast is usually used as a "finishing yeast" to ferment the sugars not already consumed by the brewers yeast. This is largely because different yeast strains will ferment different sugars. For instance ale yeast will NOT ferment melibiose, but lager yeasts will.


Quote:

not passing up sterilization, boiling with hops I'm sure isn't simply for flavor, who would make a beer without boiling




I certainly agree that boiling is the most common practice for almost all beer. However historically beer was often fermented in the mash.

Quote:

correct ferment times, 2 weeks to primarily ferment then bottling versus kegging and conditioning or cold crashing etc. Fuck it don't even mention it, this is so far gone from this already, no point in even going into this since this has turned into microbiology versus chemistry



Why would you need to ferment for 2 weeks if your primary fermentation is complete after 4 days? Do you use a hydrometer? Do you have any idea what your % of attenuation is? Fermentation is micro-biology AND chemistry. Mashing is just chemistry.

Quote:

You are saying it can only be in one category or another? It's actually called a lager? I guess it's true it's possible:



It uses a lager yeast so yes, it is a lager. The reason it is considered a hybrid beer is because it is fermented at ale temperatures. The same is true of cream ale, which is a cold fermented ale.

Quote:

"Check with the supplier. WYeast and White Labs list preferred temperature ranges for all their strains. Most lager strains like 50° to 60° F. Many lagers also benefit from a diacetyl rest - raising the temperature to the high 60's F near the end of fermentation.





As has been stated before in this thread. Yeast prefers warm temperatures, and likes to propagate at 30C or higher. The fermentation temperatures listed on the package are recommended temperatures for getting the right flavour profile from the yeast. This is done intentionally to inhibit the yeast!

Quote:

I guess bringing infection into the discussion is un necessary.


It's not unnecessary, it's nonsense. You either prepared your wort in a sanitary way, or you didn't. If the micro count is high enough in your wort it doesn't matter what temp you ferment at, what yeast you use, or how much you pitch. Your beer WILL be contaminated.

Quote:

I just figured in general that it's not a good idea to stray out of the realm of conditions a recipe is calling for.




I agree, I'm just pointing our that you've presumed all kinds of thing which are totally wrong.


--------------------
I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,372
Loc: You get banned for saying that Flag
Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: Heffy]
    #19603233 - 02/22/14 09:05 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Heffy said:
Quote:

not mashing too high or too low, forget dry versus sweet. And honestly arguing with me that a dry beer has nothing to do with ingredients is just plain ignorant. No such thing as a beer made with champagne yeast? Ok, riiight. It's automatically dry simply because of the active nature of the yeast used to make the beer



The dryness of a beer is affected by both the mashing and the fermentation. Mashing too high or too low WILL change the qualities of the beer. However it will not RUIN the beer as you claimed, unless you mash at temperatures way outside the active range of your enzymes. Someone who had excellent mashing techniques would probably start the mash at a lower temperature, to activate the glucanase and protease enzymes before raising the temperature and activating the amylase enzymes.

Champagne yeast can be used in beer, but will not "automatically be dry". In fact if you start a beer on a champagne yeast I would anticipate an extremely high final gravity(low attenuation). Champagne yeast is usually used as a "finishing yeast" to ferment the sugars not already consumed by the brewers yeast. This is largely because different yeast strains will ferment different sugars. For instance ale yeast will NOT ferment melibiose, but lager yeasts will.







that is awesome, you could start with let's say safbrew t-58 and finish with champagne yeast huh? So you think despite pitching and temperature that if a wort is sanitized enough that no infection will occur no matter how long a beer takes to ferment? My carboy actually has a HUGE scratch in on the inside, I wonder if it never gets completely clean no matter how much I clean it now, and bugs are living in the crevice :crying:


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineHeffy
BrauMeister
 User Gallery


Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 3,262
Loc: International Traveller
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: imachavel]
    #19604995 - 02/22/14 04:29 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

Heffy said:
Quote:

not mashing too high or too low, forget dry versus sweet. And honestly arguing with me that a dry beer has nothing to do with ingredients is just plain ignorant. No such thing as a beer made with champagne yeast? Ok, riiight. It's automatically dry simply because of the active nature of the yeast used to make the beer



The dryness of a beer is affected by both the mashing and the fermentation. Mashing too high or too low WILL change the qualities of the beer. However it will not RUIN the beer as you claimed, unless you mash at temperatures way outside the active range of your enzymes. Someone who had excellent mashing techniques would probably start the mash at a lower temperature, to activate the glucanase and protease enzymes before raising the temperature and activating the amylase enzymes.

Champagne yeast can be used in beer, but will not "automatically be dry". In fact if you start a beer on a champagne yeast I would anticipate an extremely high final gravity(low attenuation). Champagne yeast is usually used as a "finishing yeast" to ferment the sugars not already consumed by the brewers yeast. This is largely because different yeast strains will ferment different sugars. For instance ale yeast will NOT ferment melibiose, but lager yeasts will.







that is awesome, you could start with let's say safbrew t-58 and finish with champagne yeast huh? So you think despite pitching and temperature that if a wort is sanitized enough that no infection will occur no matter how long a beer takes to ferment? My carboy actually has a HUGE scratch in on the inside, I wonder if it never gets completely clean no matter how much I clean it now, and bugs are living in the crevice :crying:




If you're really worried about it buy a microscope. I bet most homebrew has hundreds or thousands of yeast cells for every bacteria. Even professional breweries often have SOME bacteria in their beer. The important thing is to make sure the wort is as sanitary as possible. Then when you pitch the yeast culture it has almost no competing micro-organisms.


--------------------
I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Oatmeal Recipes? LeViTY 1,069 5 08/20/04 12:00 AM
by sporgasm
* Chocolate Drop Cookies "ROCKS" ShroomismM 946 3 06/25/04 02:44 PM
by Shroomism
* Warm fucking berries and cheese looner2 545 1 04/19/05 05:01 AM
by Anonymous
* high energy just add water foods? kadakuda 1,856 18 10/27/04 03:33 AM
by kadakuda
* super cheap/nutritious meals
( 1 2 3 all )
JonnyOnTheSpot 8,365 41 04/01/05 11:08 AM
by Baby_Hitler
* Hiking / Backpacking food suggestions needed phreedom420 1,190 7 07/22/05 06:33 AM
by ummikko
* Anyone who enjoys good beer
( 1 2 all )
mr_kite 5,216 20 09/16/03 08:16 AM
by shroomergurl
* I need to eat food when I'm camping mr_kite 2,492 16 05/30/04 03:18 PM
by Mixomatosis

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: trendal, geokills, feevers
11,129 topic views. 0 members, 6 guests and 2 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.038 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 15 queries.