Home | Community | Message Board

World Seed Supply
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: North Spore Bulk Substrate   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next >  [ show all ]
Offlineurthtown
meat popsicle
Male


Registered: 10/26/13
Posts: 1,039
Loc: Eastern Canadia Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: ApJunkie]
    #19535620 - 02/07/14 02:53 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ApJunkie said:
Quote:

urthtown said:

Actually soon after 155 df the enzymes denature completely stopping their action. The temperature difference (148-155) actually favours one amylase enzyme over the other. At 155 you get more short chain sugars that are unfermentable and hence sweeten the finished product. At 148 you get more simple sugars like maltose that yeast loves to om nom nom.






This is not true. Higher temps favor longer chain sugars (which are less fermentable, as you said.). Additionally, the enzymes don't fully denature until around 165 degrees fahrenheit. I've mashed beers at 160 with no issues whatsoever (this is the strategy of Pliny the Elder and nearly all beers by Lagunitas).

Also, the recent issue from the American Society of Brewing Chemists had a very convincing, peer reviewed article that demonstrated higher mash temps don't actually impact the fermentability of the wort, or the potential finishing gravity of the beer. I'm not fully sold on that yet since it flies in the face of 100's of years of brewing tradition, but it made some interesting points.





By "soon after 155" I meant that the denaturing temp was close to that temp... in the context of the conversation there was mash/sparge confusion and we were talking about 180 degrees which is past the denaturing temp. Hence my "soon after 155" comment. Not incorrect, just not specific.

That last bit is interesting, but I know I've made the same beer, same ingredients, system and process with just a different mash temp and noticed a change in the overall character of the beer so it must be doing something. Maybe just not as much as was thought? :shrug:

Anyway thanks for being specific, but as far as I'm concerned 165 is "soon after 155" :P


--------------------
Cluster Headache sufferer? Cluster Busting :thumbup:
Veil Tear GIF
Flower Pot Grow GIF
Mini Mono Tub GIFS

"All mushrooms are edible, but some only once."
-- Croatian Proverb



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: urthtown]
    #19539642 - 02/08/14 12:59 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

AP knows everything about everything when it comes to brewing.  He mashes 20,000 pounds of pils a day at 35 cents a pound and turns it into god knows what.  But you can god damn bet that shit is tasty just ask the junkie!


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineApJunkie
part-time Ninja
Male


Registered: 08/17/06
Posts: 2,735
Loc: Loc:Loc:Loc:Loc:Loc:
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #19540352 - 02/08/14 04:06 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

urthtown said:
Quote:

ApJunkie said:
Quote:

urthtown said:

Actually soon after 155 df the enzymes denature completely stopping their action. The temperature difference (148-155) actually favours one amylase enzyme over the other. At 155 you get more short chain sugars that are unfermentable and hence sweeten the finished product. At 148 you get more simple sugars like maltose that yeast loves to om nom nom.






This is not true. Higher temps favor longer chain sugars (which are less fermentable, as you said.). Additionally, the enzymes don't fully denature until around 165 degrees fahrenheit. I've mashed beers at 160 with no issues whatsoever (this is the strategy of Pliny the Elder and nearly all beers by Lagunitas).

Also, the recent issue from the American Society of Brewing Chemists had a very convincing, peer reviewed article that demonstrated higher mash temps don't actually impact the fermentability of the wort, or the potential finishing gravity of the beer. I'm not fully sold on that yet since it flies in the face of 100's of years of brewing tradition, but it made some interesting points.





By "soon after 155" I meant that the denaturing temp was close to that temp... in the context of the conversation there was mash/sparge confusion and we were talking about 180 degrees which is past the denaturing temp. Hence my "soon after 155" comment. Not incorrect, just not specific.

That last bit is interesting, but I know I've made the same beer, same ingredients, system and process with just a different mash temp and noticed a change in the overall character of the beer so it must be doing something. Maybe just not as much as was thought? :shrug:

Anyway thanks for being specific, but as far as I'm concerned 165 is "soon after 155" :P




Haha yeah I guess that's fair. I thought you meant like 157 and that was silly, but I can agree that in the grand scheme of things 165 is close enough :tongue:

It is still important to note that higher mash temps do produce LESS fermentable worts than lower mash temps. I figure you know that and maybe just said it backwards but I want to reiterate to avoid confusion.


Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
AP knows everything about everything when it comes to brewing.  He mashes 20,000 pounds of pils a day at 35 cents a pound and turns it into god knows what.  But you can god damn bet that shit is tasty just ask the junkie!





It's funny that you're the most arrogant poster I've ever met on this subject until someone else with knowledge comes along and then you instantly get combative and butthurt.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,372
Loc: You get banned for saying that Flag
Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: ApJunkie]
    #19540718 - 02/08/14 05:18 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Fermentation temps matter quite a bit as well. If your air condition temp reads at 73 F that doesnt mean the room at the furthest end of the house isnt 76 F.

68 F is PERFECT I recently got a thermal bag to put the fermenter in with containers of ice I can replace daily

73 F is probably ok but 75 is too high, especially depending if you are using extremely temperature resistant yeast or if you want more IPAish or wheat ale type beer etc.

And obviously bottom feeding lager yeast doesnt like anything above 58


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineApJunkie
part-time Ninja
Male


Registered: 08/17/06
Posts: 2,735
Loc: Loc:Loc:Loc:Loc:Loc:
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: imachavel]
    #19541671 - 02/08/14 09:04 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Really depends on your yeast strain and beer style. Belgians would love 80 degrees for fermentation, but an altbier yeast (while technically still considered an ale strain) loves to be in the low 60's. I personally love even WLP001 around 75 because it's so clean that faster fermentation is wonderful.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,372
Loc: You get banned for saying that Flag
Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: ApJunkie]
    #19542391 - 02/09/14 01:52 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

I see Belgian Ales and barley wines ferment well at 75 F or above

https://byo.com/stories/item/1084-make-me-sweat-cool-tips-for-hot-weather-brewing

but can you make a really great IPA at 75 F with a specific type of yeast? I love sweet IPAs but I love IPAs in general so really to me even an english more sour type IPA would be great. I have a hard time controlling the temperature at my place without racking up a HUGE electricity bill, while 75 F is the general temperature of my place, I think realistically the lowest I could ferment at would be 72 F

then again, I have an insulated bag I could throw ice in, but I'm cautious of throwing too much ice and cooling the fermenter down below 63 F. Not to mention that it's difficult to keep replenishing the ice, if I leave for 8 hours the ice might all melt and the temp will go RIGHT back up

but I don't see why a 74 F temp can't be adjusted and still ferment some really sweet beers even though it seems beers that really like those high temps are made with yeast that generally make really dry beers


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: imachavel]
    #19542633 - 02/09/14 05:53 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
I see Belgian Ales and barley wines ferment well at 75 F or above

https://byo.com/stories/item/1084-make-me-sweat-cool-tips-for-hot-weather-brewing

but can you make a really great IPA at 75 F with a specific type of yeast? I love sweet IPAs but I love IPAs in general so really to me even an english more sour type IPA would be great. I have a hard time controlling the temperature at my place without racking up a HUGE electricity bill, while 75 F is the general temperature of my place, I think realistically the lowest I could ferment at would be 72 F

then again, I have an insulated bag I could throw ice in, but I'm cautious of throwing too much ice and cooling the fermenter down below 63 F. Not to mention that it's difficult to keep replenishing the ice, if I leave for 8 hours the ice might all melt and the temp will go RIGHT back up

but I don't see why a 74 F temp can't be adjusted and still ferment some really sweet beers even though it seems beers that really like those high temps are made with yeast that generally make really dry beers




Your use of the terms "sweet" and "sour" IPA is unusual.  If you are getting sour flavors you may have an infection.  Or could you give us a couple of commercial examples of "sweet" and "sour" IPAs?

Not all Belgian yeasts finish "really dry" although some do such as Wyeast 3711 French Saison.  Adding candi sugar in that style will make it finish even drier, which is counter intuitive.

I think a good choice for you would be the Westmalle strain, Wyeast 3787.  Your problem will likely be to keep if from fermenting too vigorously, and increasing in temperature on it's own, and too fast.  You can start it out at 70 F and let it free rise which it will do up to 80 F and above, if kept in an insulated container.  This is actually desirable, and to style for that yeast.

It's a very flavorful yeast, lots of clove and banana and phenols.  You really don't have to brew it to a Belgian style, I made a rye IPA with it, not super hoppy, no candi sugar, and it came out really great. It would work well with your fermentation temperature considerations without having to do any cooling.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,372
Loc: You get banned for saying that Flag
Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #19542952 - 02/09/14 08:54 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
I see Belgian Ales and barley wines ferment well at 75 F or above

https://byo.com/stories/item/1084-make-me-sweat-cool-tips-for-hot-weather-brewing

but can you make a really great IPA at 75 F with a specific type of yeast? I love sweet IPAs but I love IPAs in general so really to me even an english more sour type IPA would be great. I have a hard time controlling the temperature at my place without racking up a HUGE electricity bill, while 75 F is the general temperature of my place, I think realistically the lowest I could ferment at would be 72 F

then again, I have an insulated bag I could throw ice in, but I'm cautious of throwing too much ice and cooling the fermenter down below 63 F. Not to mention that it's difficult to keep replenishing the ice, if I leave for 8 hours the ice might all melt and the temp will go RIGHT back up

but I don't see why a 74 F temp can't be adjusted and still ferment some really sweet beers even though it seems beers that really like those high temps are made with yeast that generally make really dry beers




Your use of the terms "sweet" and "sour" IPA is unusual.  If you are getting sour flavors you may have an infection.  Or could you give us a couple of commercial examples of "sweet" and "sour" IPAs?

Not all Belgian yeasts finish "really dry" although some do such as Wyeast 3711 French Saison.  Adding candi sugar in that style will make it finish even drier, which is counter intuitive.

I think a good choice for you would be the Westmalle strain, Wyeast 3787.  Your problem will likely be to keep if from fermenting too vigorously, and increasing in temperature on it's own, and too fast.  You can start it out at 70 F and let it free rise which it will do up to 80 F and above, if kept in an insulated container.  This is actually desirable, and to style for that yeast.

It's a very flavorful yeast, lots of clove and banana and phenols.  You really don't have to brew it to a Belgian style, I made a rye IPA with it, not super hoppy, no candi sugar, and it came out really great. It would work well with your fermentation temperature considerations without having to do any cooling.




I'll keep that in mind, wyeast 3787

here is a "commercial example" of a sour english IPA

http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/33/80818/

the one I had(not this one) wasn't actually that sour, it was just wasn't the sweetest bodied IPA I ever had. It was quite great actually, I'd like to try more english style IPAs. the one in the picture I've never had so I can't vouch it's not too hoppy, but the one I had wasn't overly hoppy, which to me is pretty signature of IPAs, which was nice. Thanks


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: imachavel]
    #19542971 - 02/09/14 09:05 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
I see Belgian Ales and barley wines ferment well at 75 F or above

https://byo.com/stories/item/1084-make-me-sweat-cool-tips-for-hot-weather-brewing

but can you make a really great IPA at 75 F with a specific type of yeast? I love sweet IPAs but I love IPAs in general so really to me even an english more sour type IPA would be great. I have a hard time controlling the temperature at my place without racking up a HUGE electricity bill, while 75 F is the general temperature of my place, I think realistically the lowest I could ferment at would be 72 F

then again, I have an insulated bag I could throw ice in, but I'm cautious of throwing too much ice and cooling the fermenter down below 63 F. Not to mention that it's difficult to keep replenishing the ice, if I leave for 8 hours the ice might all melt and the temp will go RIGHT back up

but I don't see why a 74 F temp can't be adjusted and still ferment some really sweet beers even though it seems beers that really like those high temps are made with yeast that generally make really dry beers




Your use of the terms "sweet" and "sour" IPA is unusual.  If you are getting sour flavors you may have an infection.  Or could you give us a couple of commercial examples of "sweet" and "sour" IPAs?

Not all Belgian yeasts finish "really dry" although some do such as Wyeast 3711 French Saison.  Adding candi sugar in that style will make it finish even drier, which is counter intuitive.

I think a good choice for you would be the Westmalle strain, Wyeast 3787.  Your problem will likely be to keep if from fermenting too vigorously, and increasing in temperature on it's own, and too fast.  You can start it out at 70 F and let it free rise which it will do up to 80 F and above, if kept in an insulated container.  This is actually desirable, and to style for that yeast.

It's a very flavorful yeast, lots of clove and banana and phenols.  You really don't have to brew it to a Belgian style, I made a rye IPA with it, not super hoppy, no candi sugar, and it came out really great. It would work well with your fermentation temperature considerations without having to do any cooling.




I'll keep that in mind, wyeast 3787

here is a "commercial example" of a sour english IPA

http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/33/80818/

the one I had(not this one) wasn't actually that sour, it was just wasn't the sweetest bodied IPA I ever had. It was quite great actually, I'd like to try more english style IPAs. the one in the picture I've never had so I can't vouch it's not too hoppy, but the one I had wasn't overly hoppy, which to me is pretty signature of IPAs, which was nice. Thanks




I entered a few month old hops fading English IPA in a contest a while back.  Should have done it as and English Pale Ale, got dinged a bit for not enough hops.  Still scored a 39 and a 35, average 37.

Well that barrel aged sour mash IPA seems a horse of a different color than your typical IPA.

I like your idea of getting away from the American IPA, the citrus hops are nice but after a while get a bit much.  Willamette hops are nice, Goldings.  The US Goldings I used in that English IPA and were well received.  That and Fuggles but Goldings are a more popular hop.  Some folks really detest Fuggles.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,372
Loc: You get banned for saying that Flag
Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #19544865 - 02/09/14 05:36 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
I see Belgian Ales and barley wines ferment well at 75 F or above

https://byo.com/stories/item/1084-make-me-sweat-cool-tips-for-hot-weather-brewing

but can you make a really great IPA at 75 F with a specific type of yeast? I love sweet IPAs but I love IPAs in general so really to me even an english more sour type IPA would be great. I have a hard time controlling the temperature at my place without racking up a HUGE electricity bill, while 75 F is the general temperature of my place, I think realistically the lowest I could ferment at would be 72 F

then again, I have an insulated bag I could throw ice in, but I'm cautious of throwing too much ice and cooling the fermenter down below 63 F. Not to mention that it's difficult to keep replenishing the ice, if I leave for 8 hours the ice might all melt and the temp will go RIGHT back up

but I don't see why a 74 F temp can't be adjusted and still ferment some really sweet beers even though it seems beers that really like those high temps are made with yeast that generally make really dry beers




Your use of the terms "sweet" and "sour" IPA is unusual.  If you are getting sour flavors you may have an infection.  Or could you give us a couple of commercial examples of "sweet" and "sour" IPAs?

Not all Belgian yeasts finish "really dry" although some do such as Wyeast 3711 French Saison.  Adding candi sugar in that style will make it finish even drier, which is counter intuitive.

I think a good choice for you would be the Westmalle strain, Wyeast 3787.  Your problem will likely be to keep if from fermenting too vigorously, and increasing in temperature on it's own, and too fast.  You can start it out at 70 F and let it free rise which it will do up to 80 F and above, if kept in an insulated container.  This is actually desirable, and to style for that yeast.

It's a very flavorful yeast, lots of clove and banana and phenols.  You really don't have to brew it to a Belgian style, I made a rye IPA with it, not super hoppy, no candi sugar, and it came out really great. It would work well with your fermentation temperature considerations without having to do any cooling.




I'll keep that in mind, wyeast 3787

here is a "commercial example" of a sour english IPA

http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/33/80818/

the one I had(not this one) wasn't actually that sour, it was just wasn't the sweetest bodied IPA I ever had. It was quite great actually, I'd like to try more english style IPAs. the one in the picture I've never had so I can't vouch it's not too hoppy, but the one I had wasn't overly hoppy, which to me is pretty signature of IPAs, which was nice. Thanks




I entered a few month old hops fading English IPA in a contest a while back.  Should have done it as and English Pale Ale, got dinged a bit for not enough hops.  Still scored a 39 and a 35, average 37.

Well that barrel aged sour mash IPA seems a horse of a different color than your typical IPA.

I like your idea of getting away from the American IPA, the citrus hops are nice but after a while get a bit much.  Willamette hops are nice, Goldings.  The US Goldings I used in that English IPA and were well received.  That and Fuggles but Goldings are a more popular hop.  Some folks really detest Fuggles.




yeah the citrus and sentential are delicious but do get a bit much after awhile. I've used goldings, good stuff, they will hop the shit out of your beer but won't be too over powering.

I like simcoe hops as well, although in moderation mixed with other hops. A beer with primarily simcoe hops to me is just plain sour and boring at that, not even a good sour, they mix well though in small amounts.

I have no idea how to brew that barrel aged sour ipa, I just know I've tried one(not that brand) and it is delicious. I'd love to try a recipe but I'm a little new to brewing and fermenting I just recently started fermenting some really bad ass beers getting the temperatures just right and everything and don't know if I'm up for a complex recipe like an aged beer. My beers so far have come out great fermented between 10 and 14 days. I'm good at fermenting beers that ferment quickly, probably because they require a stronger yeast and more sugar to ferment so have a higher gravity and sterilize the environment more quickly. Tried a lager one time and FAILED, and can't imagine trying to age a beer. But I'd LOVE the recipe for a sour aged ipa I could try it, get good at it without it being aged, then later learn to age it and perfect it.





By the way I'm currently using safbrew t-58 it's a pretty hard core yeast as well, I'm wondering how many different types of beer love this yeast. I know I won't be able to make any really sweet beers because of the vigorousness of this yeast, but that's ok I wouldn't mind making a very light ale either, one for a recipe meant to be sweet but fermented with a more vigorous yeast, and made into an almost clean light beer ale. It won't be as clean as a lager of course, but that's no problem lagers aren't my favourite. I'm really with the idea that recipes can be changed around as long as you stick with proper mash/ferment temperatures and yeasts appropriate for the type of beer you are making.


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


Edited by imachavel (02/09/14 07:27 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: imachavel]
    #19564931 - 02/14/14 06:29 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

I notice I have a pack of about 3 year old T58 in my fridge.  May have to see how many hard core buggers survived.  Do a big oatmeal stout with it.  Start the ferment at 58 F.  Just to be mean.  Oh yeah T58 now what you got??  Take it out to the cold garage and now what??


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,372
Loc: You get banned for saying that Flag
Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #19566276 - 02/14/14 01:08 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

I thought t-58 preferred warmer ferment temps in the mid 70s? Or maybe it's just a real rugged yeast good for broader ferment temps. Does it make good IPA? I personally love aggressive yeasts, I have no idea what all the blab about aggressive yeasts creating too strong beer flavors and not making good light beers with delicate flavors is about.

To be fair, most light beers are lagers, and lagers have yeasts that eat more sugars. While they take longer to eat more sugars, they do indeed eat more sugars, and yet there are still tons of varieties in the ranges of sweet lagers. I guess when people start discussing beer they tend to get a little over picky about flavor variations. 149 F versus 156 F mash temps etc. I think most of the reason for beer type is based on ingredients, yeast type, ferment temp and ferment times, etc. sure mash temps do have an impact but I can't imagine a very sweet beer made with a low alcohol tolerance yeast mashed at 149 being very dry, likewise I can't imagine a beer fermented longer with a yeast that has a stronger tolerance to alcohol mashed at 156 being a very sweet beer.

And then of course with recipes and fermentation periods there are always fluctuations, one can add ingredients towards the very end of the fermentation, berries, honey, molasses, hell maybe even cannabis. I've never had a cannabis beer I'm curious to the flavor I'd imagine the alcohol would do a very good job extracting the flavors


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: imachavel]
    #19569068 - 02/15/14 05:44 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
I thought t-58 preferred warmer ferment temps in the mid 70s? Or maybe it's just a real rugged yeast good for broader ferment temps. Does it make good IPA? I personally love aggressive yeasts, I have no idea what all the blab about aggressive yeasts creating too strong beer flavors and not making good light beers with delicate flavors is about.

To be fair, most light beers are lagers, and lagers have yeasts that eat more sugars. While they take longer to eat more sugars, they do indeed eat more sugars, and yet there are still tons of varieties in the ranges of sweet lagers. I guess when people start discussing beer they tend to get a little over picky about flavor variations. 149 F versus 156 F mash temps etc. I think most of the reason for beer type is based on ingredients, yeast type, ferment temp and ferment times, etc. sure mash temps do have an impact but I can't imagine a very sweet beer made with a low alcohol tolerance yeast mashed at 149 being very dry, likewise I can't imagine a beer fermented longer with a yeast that has a stronger tolerance to alcohol mashed at 156 being a very sweet beer.

And then of course with recipes and fermentation periods there are always fluctuations, one can add ingredients towards the very end of the fermentation, berries, honey, molasses, hell maybe even cannabis. I've never had a cannabis beer I'm curious to the flavor I'd imagine the alcohol would do a very good job extracting the flavors




Dude, I was joking.

Wow I read your post, and honestly have no clue how to respond to it.  And I've brewed probably 200 batches!  Ya stumped me...


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineurthtown
meat popsicle
Male


Registered: 10/26/13
Posts: 1,039
Loc: Eastern Canadia Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #19569254 - 02/15/14 07:39 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
I thought t-58 preferred warmer ferment temps in the mid 70s? Or maybe it's just a real rugged yeast good for broader ferment temps. Does it make good IPA? I personally love aggressive yeasts, I have no idea what all the blab about aggressive yeasts creating too strong beer flavors and not making good light beers with delicate flavors is about.

To be fair, most light beers are lagers, and lagers have yeasts that eat more sugars. While they take longer to eat more sugars, they do indeed eat more sugars, and yet there are still tons of varieties in the ranges of sweet lagers. I guess when people start discussing beer they tend to get a little over picky about flavor variations. 149 F versus 156 F mash temps etc. I think most of the reason for beer type is based on ingredients, yeast type, ferment temp and ferment times, etc. sure mash temps do have an impact but I can't imagine a very sweet beer made with a low alcohol tolerance yeast mashed at 149 being very dry, likewise I can't imagine a beer fermented longer with a yeast that has a stronger tolerance to alcohol mashed at 156 being a very sweet beer.

And then of course with recipes and fermentation periods there are always fluctuations, one can add ingredients towards the very end of the fermentation, berries, honey, molasses, hell maybe even cannabis. I've never had a cannabis beer I'm curious to the flavor I'd imagine the alcohol would do a very good job extracting the flavors





Wow I read your post, and honestly have no clue how to respond to it.  And I've brewed probably 200 batches!  Ya stumped me...




:whathesaid:

and also...

:lolwut:

Man, OP. You have no idea what you are talking about. None of what you said made any sense at all. You talk about brewing as if everything you say is correct and you know it to be true, but trust me that was mostly gibberish.

Here LunarEclipse I'll try again... though I'm giving up hope:

Aggressive yeasts don't "create too strong flavours" and there is no "blab" about it... US-05 is a highly aggressive yeast but most people who don't like it usually state its lack of yeast character, its completely clean palate as the drawback - they want something they can taste. But a pack or two of US-05 can crush through a 11% ABV barley wine like it ain't no thang.

"To be fair, most light beers are lagers, and lagers have yeasts that eat more sugars." - said no brewer, ever. This is a false statement... so false it hurts me. There are tons of light ales out there.... anyway I've already given you the link to the BJCP style guide. Lagers don't have yeasts that eat more sugars. WTF does that even mean?

Dude, every parameter changes the beer's flavour. If you can't get your mash temp right, you'll never be a consistent or effective brewer even at a home brew scale. Stop pretending the thing you keep fucking up doesn't matter and instead believe us that it is part of controlling the outcome of your brewing process.

"I can't imagine a very sweet beer made with a low alcohol tolerance yeast mashed at 149 being very dry"

lol because you don't understand brewing at all. That statement alone proves it. It is about reciprocity. If you don't have the malt backbone to give you a sweet balanced beer, you can fine tune your flavour profile with mash temps, stiffness (the water to grain ratio), etc. If you have a big grain bill and it will be a struggle to crunch through all that sugar you can mash low and thin to encourage fermentability of the wort.

It's like you are saying it doesn't matter when you add the hops. Of course you can still make beer if you ignore a parameter, but the whole point is to control the process so you don't make shit beer with the off flavours you complain about earlier.

I was looking for the "dense mutherfucker" image but couldn't find it. Dude, go buy anything by Charlie Papazzian and read until you don't sound like you are speaking tongues when asking questions of fellow brewers! Anyone newbie who reads your posts, written as if you know what you are talking about would be very misled as to the brewing process and what is important. :thumbdown:


--------------------
Cluster Headache sufferer? Cluster Busting :thumbup:
Veil Tear GIF
Flower Pot Grow GIF
Mini Mono Tub GIFS

"All mushrooms are edible, but some only once."
-- Croatian Proverb



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,372
Loc: You get banned for saying that Flag
Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: urthtown]
    #19583786 - 02/18/14 03:07 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

urthtown said:
Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
I thought t-58 preferred warmer ferment temps in the mid 70s? Or maybe it's just a real rugged yeast good for broader ferment temps. Does it make good IPA? I personally love aggressive yeasts, I have no idea what all the blab about aggressive yeasts creating too strong beer flavors and not making good light beers with delicate flavors is about.

To be fair, most light beers are lagers, and lagers have yeasts that eat more sugars. While they take longer to eat more sugars, they do indeed eat more sugars, and yet there are still tons of varieties in the ranges of sweet lagers. I guess when people start discussing beer they tend to get a little over picky about flavor variations. 149 F versus 156 F mash temps etc. I think most of the reason for beer type is based on ingredients, yeast type, ferment temp and ferment times, etc. sure mash temps do have an impact but I can't imagine a very sweet beer made with a low alcohol tolerance yeast mashed at 149 being very dry, likewise I can't imagine a beer fermented longer with a yeast that has a stronger tolerance to alcohol mashed at 156 being a very sweet beer.

And then of course with recipes and fermentation periods there are always fluctuations, one can add ingredients towards the very end of the fermentation, berries, honey, molasses, hell maybe even cannabis. I've never had a cannabis beer I'm curious to the flavor I'd imagine the alcohol would do a very good job extracting the flavors





Wow I read your post, and honestly have no clue how to respond to it.  And I've brewed probably 200 batches!  Ya stumped me...




:whathesaid:

and also...

:lolwut:

Man, OP. You have no idea what you are talking about. None of what you said made any sense at all. You talk about brewing as if everything you say is correct and you know it to be true, but trust me that was mostly gibberish.






once again, this is the most uneducated statement I've ever heard. If this whole conversation is going to be geared towards "there is one way of doing things and only one way" in a snobbish brewing competitive sort of way, I'm just avoiding the entire discussion.

Some people like lagers, some like ales, and I can't remember one single line I made saying "everything I say is correct and I know it to be true"

I've said several times I think a home brewer doesn't have advantages that a brewery has:

1) insulated fermenters with controlled thermostats
2) more expensive filters
3) more advanced syphoning
4) an airlock that releases c02 based on how much is detected

etc.

have I said "it's impossible to brew good beer in your home"? No I haven't, I've said it's difficult. We have established that a mash temperature must be maintained between 148 F and 155 F to brew a good beer, that a solid boil must be maintained with hops, that there is something called a "wash" that is not even associated with a "mash" even if the process is to obtain enzymes and the sugars broken by them in the process. We have established that if a recipe says to ferment a beer between 68 F and 72 F, that fermenting at 64 F or 74 F might entirely ruin the beer.

Here is another thing that is not often spoken of in this thread, since we are discussing leaving things out. How about yeast that stalls? Yes this is a factor, I can't imagine throwing in TOO MUCH yeast when fermenting. Fermenting is a process in which the yeast simply has to propagate not only for the purpose of creating a good flavor and fermenting the beverage itself, but because there must be a high enough alcohol content simply to sterilize the environment around it. What happens if you do everything else perfect, and don't pitch enough yeast? It doesn't get enough of a head start to propagate fast enough. Sure it COULD just take longer to ferment, and possibly have even more flavor over a longer fermentation, BUT it's now going to stall, and stalling means more chance of other bacteria/microbiology getting in and eating sugars and totally screwing up not only the flavor and head retention of the beer, but the ph and other factors as well.

Well we are at it, what is "too much carbonation"? Are we talking about a bottle or a keg? Why is a keg supposed to be cold crashed but bottling is supposed to be done at room temperature? Who says an airlock is best? Why not a carboy where you create your own airlock and set it to release pressure at a certain amount of pressure?

So far I've discussed mostly the temperature and filtering aspect of brewing, and barely even mentioned the fermentation process, aside from different yeasts and temperature preferences, and yet you say "I say things as though I know them certainly"


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,372
Loc: You get banned for saying that Flag
Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: urthtown]
    #19583817 - 02/18/14 03:35 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

urthtown said:
Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
I thought t-58 preferred warmer ferment temps in the mid 70s? Or maybe it's just a real rugged yeast good for broader ferment temps. Does it make good IPA? I personally love aggressive yeasts, I have no idea what all the blab about aggressive yeasts creating too strong beer flavors and not making good light beers with delicate flavors is about.

To be fair, most light beers are lagers, and lagers have yeasts that eat more sugars. While they take longer to eat more sugars, they do indeed eat more sugars, and yet there are still tons of varieties in the ranges of sweet lagers. I guess when people start discussing beer they tend to get a little over picky about flavor variations. 149 F versus 156 F mash temps etc. I think most of the reason for beer type is based on ingredients, yeast type, ferment temp and ferment times, etc. sure mash temps do have an impact but I can't imagine a very sweet beer made with a low alcohol tolerance yeast mashed at 149 being very dry, likewise I can't imagine a beer fermented longer with a yeast that has a stronger tolerance to alcohol mashed at 156 being a very sweet beer.

And then of course with recipes and fermentation periods there are always fluctuations, one can add ingredients towards the very end of the fermentation, berries, honey, molasses, hell maybe even cannabis. I've never had a cannabis beer I'm curious to the flavor I'd imagine the alcohol would do a very good job extracting the flavors





Wow I read your post, and honestly have no clue how to respond to it.  And I've brewed probably 200 batches!  Ya stumped me...




Lagers don't have yeasts that eat more sugars. WTF does that even mean?





that's funny:

"Lager yeast varieties have the ability to work at much cooler temperatures than ale yeasts. They lack the fruity esters produced by warm fermentation and instead leave a crisp, clean flavor. Lager yeast work slowly, but they are very thorough. They consume a wider variety of sugars than ale yeasts do, which helps produce that characteristic dry finish."

http://drinks.seriouseats.com/2011/07/homebrewing-how-to-brew-lager.html

it's almost as though you were perfect and never made any mistakes in any of the things you say :smirk:

now since you are so specific in saying a mash temp shouldn't be 149 or 154 if you want a specific head and retention and profile and you are aiming at 152 it has to be exactly 152, why don't you explain how you will keep 152 exactly for 45 minutes? On a propane burner? Didn't you say earlier "the equipment you use doesn't have to be fancy." Well good luck using a propane burner and keeping it below 180 F with the thing barely on at all.

Also you contradict yourself. Earlier you said "I don't think your problem is in the mash, but what you are doing later on in the fermentation"

But now suddenly a minor few degrees is extremely important. Well then I definitely better not agree that any beer "can be fermented at 78 F with a certain type of yeast"

:rolleyes: yeah right if you don't mind it tasting like banana peels. I can't imagine a decent beer even at 76 F beer is a cold temperature fermented beverage, even if cold means 69 F it's still not a warm beverage. And as far as "temperature does not effect sugar consumption" clearly that's uneducated. Even with wine yeast a colder fermentation is used for white wine to leave more sugar and a higher temperature for red wine to limit fruity flavor. But while we are being specific, I wouldn't even care about mash temperature if a fermentation temperature can't be controlled.

If you mash between 148 and 155 what so ever, you will still have enzymes and convertible starches are now sugars. Your flavor profile may be effected by a few degrees, but the profile of the beer will not be changed from an IPA to a bitter sour wheat because you did a mash at 152 instead of 149. Not saying you indicated this, but how much profile differentiation are you talking about? According to the spectrum of beer, the difference between a lager and an ale is almost entirely dependent on ingredients, yeast and fermentation temps.

How dry vs sweet can a beer be if one is made with 2-row malt and the other wheat? Now all the sudden is a difference between 150 F and 153 F mash going to change the entire flavor profile of your beer? Am I saying it won't make a difference? No I never said that, in fact since you are quoting me quote this. I never said it won't make a difference. I think what I said or at least what I was trying to say is that the profile of the beer will be effected the LEAST by 3 degrees mash temperature then it will by many other factors. Note that I am arguing a difference of about 3 degrees, and not 10 degrees. I am not arguing that a mash of 147 versus 157 won't have ENTIRELY different results.


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineApJunkie
part-time Ninja
Male


Registered: 08/17/06
Posts: 2,735
Loc: Loc:Loc:Loc:Loc:Loc:
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: imachavel]
    #19584795 - 02/18/14 11:50 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:

once again, this is the most uneducated statement I've ever heard. If this whole conversation is going to be geared towards "there is one way of doing things and only one way" in a snobbish brewing competitive sort of way, I'm just avoiding the entire discussion.

Some people like lagers, some like ales, and I can't remember one single line I made saying "everything I say is correct and I know it to be true"

I've said several times I think a home brewer doesn't have advantages that a brewery has:

1) insulated fermenters with controlled thermostats
2) more expensive filters
3) more advanced syphoning
4) an airlock that releases c02 based on how much is detected

etc.

have I said "it's impossible to brew good beer in your home"? No I haven't, I've said it's difficult. We have established that a mash temperature must be maintained between 148 F and 155 F to brew a good beer, that a solid boil must be maintained with hops, that there is something called a "wash" that is not even associated with a "mash" even if the process is to obtain enzymes and the sugars broken by them in the process. We have established that if a recipe says to ferment a beer between 68 F and 72 F, that fermenting at 64 F or 74 F might entirely ruin the beer.

Here is another thing that is not often spoken of in this thread, since we are discussing leaving things out. How about yeast that stalls? Yes this is a factor, I can't imagine throwing in TOO MUCH yeast when fermenting. Fermenting is a process in which the yeast simply has to propagate not only for the purpose of creating a good flavor and fermenting the beverage itself, but because there must be a high enough alcohol content simply to sterilize the environment around it. What happens if you do everything else perfect, and don't pitch enough yeast? It doesn't get enough of a head start to propagate fast enough. Sure it COULD just take longer to ferment, and possibly have even more flavor over a longer fermentation, BUT it's now going to stall, and stalling means more chance of other bacteria/microbiology getting in and eating sugars and totally screwing up not only the flavor and head retention of the beer, but the ph and other factors as well.

Well we are at it, what is "too much carbonation"? Are we talking about a bottle or a keg? Why is a keg supposed to be cold crashed but bottling is supposed to be done at room temperature? Who says an airlock is best? Why not a carboy where you create your own airlock and set it to release pressure at a certain amount of pressure?

So far I've discussed mostly the temperature and filtering aspect of brewing, and barely even mentioned the fermentation process, aside from different yeasts and temperature preferences, and yet you say "I say things as though I know them certainly"




Yikes man, I really wanted to be on your side but you really said some weird shit there.

Quote:

1) insulated fermenters with controlled thermostats
2) more expensive filters
3) more advanced syphoning
4) an airlock that releases c02 based on how much is detected




1) I have a thermostatically controlled fermentation chamber at home. It's called a fridge with a Johnson Controls regulator. It cost me about $100 and I can control my fermentations +/- 1 degree F at HOME.

2) You don't need to filter homebrew and it has nothing to do with the quality of the finished product.

3) Commercial breweries don't siphon. The thought of siphoning a 4,000 gallon fermenter has me laughing my ass off. We use pumps. Once again, no impact on beer quality with either method.

4) WTF. You know what an airlock on a commercial vessel looks like? It's a fucking tube, just like a blowoff hose on a 6 gallon carboy. Some breweries will cap the fermenters during diacetyl rest to naturally carbonate the beer a bit, but the pressure regulators have nothing to do with CO2, it's just PSI. Once again, totally available for homebrewers as well and has no impact on finished beer quality, it's a financial thing at a commercial scale (because using bottled CO2 to force carb 120bbl of beer is fiscally retarded).

Quote:

We have established that if a recipe says to ferment a beer between 68 F and 72 F, that fermenting at 64 F or 74 F might entirely ruin the beer.




I completely disagree.  100% absolutely.

Quote:

I can't imagine throwing in TOO MUCH yeast when fermenting.




Overpitching is just as bad as underpitching. When too many viable cells are available at the start of fermentation, the reproduction process is reduced, leading to too many mother cells and not enough fresh daughter cells. This can overstress the secondary anaerobic metabolic cycle of the yeast and leads to release of non-desirable flavor compounds such as Acetaldehyde and fusel alcohols.

Quote:

Fermenting is a process in which the yeast simply has to propagate not only for the purpose of creating a good flavor and fermenting the beverage itself, but because there must be a high enough alcohol content simply to sterilize the environment around it.




Also wrong. Yeast out competes other organisms through pH modification (they take your beer down to around a pH of 4.1), the alcohol is byproduct of metabolism and does very little to sanitize the wort.

Quote:

What happens if you do everything else perfect, and don't pitch enough yeast? It doesn't get enough of a head start to propagate fast enough. Sure it COULD just take longer to ferment, and possibly have even more flavor over a longer fermentation, BUT it's now going to stall,




Holy fuck dude. First off, longer ferments don't mean more flavor. Christ. 95% of flavor compounds (esters and phenolics, primarily) are produced in the first 72 hours of fermentation. After that it's pretty much just turning sugar into alcohol. Pitching too little is just like pitching too much (as I said above), the cell division stage happens too aggressively, leading to massive scarring on the mother-cell's cell walls and poor permeability for compound uptake and utilization. This can also cause horrendous off flavors in beer such as acetaldehyde. Stalling from an underpitch is very unlikely, usually that's a result of poor oxygenation.


Quote:

Well we are at it, what is "too much carbonation"? Are we talking about a bottle or a keg? Why is a keg supposed to be cold crashed but bottling is supposed to be done at room temperature? Who says an airlock is best? Why not a carboy where you create your own airlock and set it to release pressure at a certain amount of pressure?




fuckityfuckityfuckfuck. I don't even want to respond to any of those, just use google. Those are like first month of homebrewing questions, and you're posing them like it's a philosophical revelation.  I will tell you however, that doing primary fermentation under pressure is a very good way to make disgusting beer. Yeast does not like high CO2 pressure (it once again reduces cell wall permeability for compound absorption and release).

Ok I'm tired now. I have no desire to even touch your second post. Hopefully someone else will chime in.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRedSnapper
nuerosonic
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 3,107
Loc: Endless marshlands
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: ApJunkie]
    #19585187 - 02/18/14 01:29 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

I think this has been one long troll thread, personally..


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineurthtown
meat popsicle
Male


Registered: 10/26/13
Posts: 1,039
Loc: Eastern Canadia Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: RedSnapper]
    #19585727 - 02/18/14 03:31 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

RedSnapper said:
I think this has been one long troll thread, personally..




:whathesaid: :smbfacepalm:


--------------------
Cluster Headache sufferer? Cluster Busting :thumbup:
Veil Tear GIF
Flower Pot Grow GIF
Mini Mono Tub GIFS

"All mushrooms are edible, but some only once."
-- Croatian Proverb



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,372
Loc: You get banned for saying that Flag
Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes
Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: ApJunkie]
    #19587633 - 02/18/14 10:19 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ApJunkie said:
Quote:

imachavel said:

We have established that if a recipe says to ferment a beer between 68 F and 72 F, that fermenting at 64 F or 74 F might entirely ruin the beer.




I completely disagree.  100% absolutely.






what does this mean? 100% absolutely it will? Or 100% absolutely you disagree? Am I supposed to read this as if it's not just sarcasm? :facepalm:

while we are on the subject, why do you feel over carbonation will ruin a beer if the carbonation can be released? Did I say "seal a container so no c02 will escape?"

second, what is "over pitching yeast"? Adding 2 or 3 yeast packets instead of 1? Or are you assuming I'm talking about adding 40 yeast packets?











You know what, never mind. Forget I asked ever. I get the feeling most people here have made this a career, or very much thought about it. A simple discussion turned into "you think you know everything and just keep saying shit that means nothing." You are right, I do know everything, which was why I created a thread asking questions. Well, this is pretty much every shroomery discussion, there is no point in asking something unless you have 99% of all the facts together and are just curious about the smallest most insignificant detail.


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: North Spore Bulk Substrate   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Oatmeal Recipes? LeViTY 1,069 5 08/20/04 12:00 AM
by sporgasm
* Chocolate Drop Cookies "ROCKS" ShroomismM 946 3 06/25/04 02:44 PM
by Shroomism
* Warm fucking berries and cheese looner2 545 1 04/19/05 05:01 AM
by Anonymous
* high energy just add water foods? kadakuda 1,856 18 10/27/04 03:33 AM
by kadakuda
* super cheap/nutritious meals
( 1 2 3 all )
JonnyOnTheSpot 8,365 41 04/01/05 11:08 AM
by Baby_Hitler
* Hiking / Backpacking food suggestions needed phreedom420 1,190 7 07/22/05 06:33 AM
by ummikko
* Anyone who enjoys good beer
( 1 2 all )
mr_kite 5,216 20 09/16/03 08:16 AM
by shroomergurl
* I need to eat food when I'm camping mr_kite 2,492 16 05/30/04 03:18 PM
by Mixomatosis

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: trendal, geokills, feevers
11,129 topic views. 0 members, 5 guests and 2 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.037 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 15 queries.