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Enlil's Official Story Registered: 10/31/04 Posts: 21,407 Loc: Building 7 |
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Quote: You need to buy grains locally shipping will cost you more than the grain otherwise... -------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: Yes you avoid shipping costs. I was just wondering if anyone ever got whole sale deals of grain but never mind grain I guess by itself isn't too expensive mixed with the price of yeast and hops of course it's a bit more -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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Enlil's Official Story Registered: 10/31/04 Posts: 21,407 Loc: Building 7 |
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Quote: The bulk grains 2 row barley if you go domestic is under a buck a pound. Maybe even 70 cents a pound. For imported around a buck a pound. Comes in 50 lb. bags or 55 lb. bags. Worth buying that in bulk. Or pils malt. Something you will use up. -------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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part-time Ninja Registered: 08/17/06 Posts: 2,735 Loc: Loc:Loc:Loc:Loc: Last seen: 5 years, 2 months |
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Quote: Seriously go to your local micro/craft brewery and tell them you're a homebrewer. 99% of the time they're willing to sell you 20-30lbs of grain at cost. I literally crush and mash 4,000-8,000 lbs of pilsner malt every single day, a homebrewer needing 22lbs for his belgian tripel isn't going to affect us at all. Bonus points, at that purchase quantity, we only pay about 35 cents per pound. Quote: http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/s "Ingredients: Malted rye typically constitutes 50% or greater of the grist (some versions have 60-65% rye)." I can't believe you've never heard of roggenbier.
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: I never even thought about that. We have a few here. Plus as it is if I want to make a really strong Barley wine this guy will charge me over $40 for ingredients. And most of the time I bring him a recipe I find online, he gives me one of his recipes and says "try this." Its not that his beers are bad, but they are all very hop dependent and with gravitys around 6%. Not my style Plus he sometimes gives me different advice, for example he says some mashes should be done at 155 F, some at 152 F, and some at 148 F. Well thats not BAD advice, Im looking for something less general and more specific. Not to mention I dont want to buy grain bags but collanders with micro thin holes. A lot of what he gears towards are home brewers but even as a home brewer Id rather buy it cheap enough I can throw it out and go back and buy more. I dont want a very hoppy and malty beer I need to pay $60 for. Fair enough -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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meat popsicle Registered: 10/26/13 Posts: 1,039 Loc: Eastern Canadia Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: ...what? A higher mash temp (closer to 155) will result in a fuller bodied, maltier, sweeter final beer with a higher final gravity. Mashing lower will give you less body, more fermentable sugars and a drier final beer. He WAS giving you specific, and not general, advice... -------------------- Cluster Headache sufferer? Cluster Busting Veil Tear GIF Flower Pot Grow GIF Mini Mono Tub GIFS "All mushrooms are edible, but some only once." -- Croatian Proverb
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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He should have explained it the way you explained it then, he left out a lot of details. You just said it, way more specifically
Anyway nevermind -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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meat popsicle Registered: 10/26/13 Posts: 1,039 Loc: Eastern Canadia Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: Haha great - well as long as we are parting the mist then it's a good direction. A lot of brew store owners like to tell you to brew the beer they like and make - I hear ya. These days I just walk into the store, mill up my recipe and walk back out the door. You can make beer for quite a small amount of money. I just paid $18 at the brew store for an all grain version of the recipe I posted above scaled down. I've been getting cluster headaches (see my sig) and the alcohol is a trigger, so I brewed a 3% alcohol stout. But, I wanted a full flavoured 3% beer so I added some munich malt to the ordinary 2-row. This makes it a big fuller bodied, darker in colour, maltier in taste and is less "grainy" than the Canadian 2-row. Then I used the same amount of flaked barley and roasted barley as I would in a 5% stout, and as such they make up much larger percentages of the total fermentables giving a bigger malt umph to this beer while scaling back the alcohol content to about the threshold. You don't want to go much lower than 3% or you run into major loss of full flavour complexity. The most important things are: 1) learn the principles - just the big important pieces (usually included in a step by step guide) 2) learn YOUR system, and get really good on it 3) figure out what YOU like to drink and then make nothing else unless you want to I have a buddy who got challenged by his fiancé when they met to make a peanut butter chocolate beer. He made this porter that I swear tasted like the beer version of Reese's PB cups with peanut extract, peanut butter, roasted chocolate nibs, coco powder and a full robust porter malt bill to back it up. If you can dream it, you can brew it. And remember the old home brewer adage coined by the father of american home brewing (Charlie Papazzian) RDWHAHB or... Relax Don't Worry Have A Home Brew. Your beer is gonna be fine I wish we had a saying like that for the Mushroom Cultivation forum ![]() Good luck with the bulk buys man! Hope it works out. I put out about 150 gallons of home-brew on my 5 gallon system on a kitchen stove every year walking the grains home from the brew shop batch by batch. You can make a lot on a small scale system! -------------------- Cluster Headache sufferer? Cluster Busting Veil Tear GIF Flower Pot Grow GIF Mini Mono Tub GIFS "All mushrooms are edible, but some only once." -- Croatian Proverb
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Enlil's Official Story Registered: 10/31/04 Posts: 21,407 Loc: Building 7 |
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Quote: Dude of course I have. I just think the OP isn't ready for a 50% rye mash. -------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: feel free to post a recipe if you want. I am all about trying with new ingredients, although I probably won't be making the next one for two weeks, as I have my primary and secondary keg both filled, and I need to drink(or give away) everything in my secondary before I dump my primary now into the secondary container. Which do you prefer to mash at by the way? I assume 155 is the best temperature to get a really malty sweet beer, but I still prefer 148 even if it's supposed to make a drier beer, I can always add honey or other sugars to make it sweeter. The only reason I try and go as low as possible is, I'm still going to boil the beer after I remove the grains with the hops, so the temperatures DEFINITELY get high enough to activate the enzymes. Also, sometimes I have a hard time controlling the temperature on the gas stove, I've tried to mash before at 155 and it went up to 162. If I mash at 148 and the temperature goes up a bit, it most likely goes up to 154 or 155 before I notice it and control it. To me once a beer is washed above 160, it gets all these really other nasty flavours out of the brew grain tannins and sugar chains probably unfermentable by yeast but will be eaten by other micro biotic life forms and the flavors that it can create are disgusting and can ruin a really good beer. I've done it a time or two, and nothing is more frustrating then having a beer that starts out tasting very nice, and ends up tasting like shit when something goes wrong in fermentation. The worst mistakes I've made besides infection so far are doing mash temperatures too high, using wrong ingredients ratios in the grain bill when coming up with the recipe e.g. not enough 2 row too much oatmeal etc., and last but not least I've dranken some beer from primary before with the pressure on the yeast cake that the beer filters out a pretty sour flavor, that of course is easily fixed by syphoning into secondary. But so far the largest mistake I've made is heating the grains in the wash above 160, very disgusting results. It's good I've made the mistake so much though, after all after making the mistake over 6 times, I'll probably never make it ever again and it's a very easily identifiable mistake. And of course as said really tasting the beer before at least 14 days of fermentation doesn't give a very accurate idea of what the final product will be, but if it tastes like dog puke then you definitely know you did something wrong. To me unfinished beer just tastes like hoppy yeasty boring carbonated water with an emphasis that the carbon is a very over powering taste and I don't want to drink soda water if I'm trying to make beer. But definitely a sweet un finished flavor is very distinct from a nasty sour taste. The internet is no help of course. I found a site tech one time that said to do all washes at 175 degrees. Jesus Christ that sounds like a disaster if I'm ruined beer at 165 I don't want to know what beer at 175 is supposed to taste like. The washing itself to me is a very delicate procedure. I hear in France it's so easy to make wine because the natural wild yeast of the area is a wine making yeast, unlike most areas of the United States that has a wild yeast that is basically just an equivalent of a bacterial infection if it ferments your beer. Well, it's fun to experiment, getting down a very good all grain technique to me is hard. At least when you aren't used to doing it all the time. It's easy to cook chicken if you've made it over 1000 times, if you've only made it 10 times you might not know if you are burning it or adding wrong spices etc. At least I feel that's a good analogy when looking at all this. And please, feel free to post all the recipes you want -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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meat popsicle Registered: 10/26/13 Posts: 1,039 Loc: Eastern Canadia Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: I mash at the temp that makes sense for the beer I am making. Backsweetening - adding sugar after fermentation - is tricky business and not likely to be successful. Fermentable sugars will kick the yeast up again and will last only until they ferment it upping the alcohol. Using a non-fermentable like lactose in a milk stout is an option... but not widely for other styles. Best to use that mash temp as a design control parameter in your recipe to get what you want as a taste profile in your beer. If you want a sweeter beer, mash at 155. If you want a dry beer, mash at 148. But remember you can still have a malty, dry beer. Sweetness and maltiness are different... honey is sweet, a dry stout is malty as hell but dry enough to quench a mighty thirst. Quote: Actually soon after 155 df the enzymes denature completely stopping their action. The temperature difference (148-155) actually favours one amylase enzyme over the other. At 155 you get more short chain sugars that are unfermentable and hence sweeten the finished product. At 148 you get more simple sugars like maltose that yeast loves to om nom nom. Quote: Heat your strike water (around 3 gallons for a typical 5 gallon batch) to 168 degrees and turn off the stove. Mix in your grain. Wrap your pot up in a blanket and let it sit for one hour. Voila. 155 df mash temp. Better yet build a real mash tun with an insulated cooler and you'll hit your temp every time. You should not need to add heat to your mash. Especially with grains in the mash - this leads to grain scorching and off flavours. Quote: It's called sparging. Sparge water should be 180 df and you can drain your grains entirely one time, then dump in your sparge water (typically another 3-4 gallons for a 5 gallon batch due to absorption into the grain). Stir vigorously and drain again. Some people take extra measures here to limit the cloudiness of their beer. I just dump and drain. I think you are having a different problem, probably from cooking your grains on an active heat source which you should NEVER EVER DO. Also don't squeeze your grains if you are. Quote: Secondary isn't actually necessary and is a misnomer. Secondary fermentation occurs when you add more sugar, for example fruit to a simple beer post-fermentation to make a fruit beer. What you are calling a secondary is really just another opportunity for contamination, although most people do it... I put 5 gallons in a carboy, add yeast and let is sit for 4 weeks. It goes right into the keg after that. Single stage fermentation is the bomb. Quote: I taste my beer at all points in it's cycle and I learn a lot from doing so. Always have. Quote: lol sorry bud, the internet is spot on. You are the one who is wrong. Completely. Try a site like www.brews-bros.com - I learned everything I know there. Keep learning but keep an open mind, you are still making very incorrect assumptions despite having found the real info (the site that said sparge at 175 df is correct, again.) -------------------- Cluster Headache sufferer? Cluster Busting Veil Tear GIF Flower Pot Grow GIF Mini Mono Tub GIFS "All mushrooms are edible, but some only once." -- Croatian Proverb Edited by urthtown (02/04/14 04:37 PM)
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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Quote: You are missing the part where breweries that sparge with very hot water in the grains have a false bottom filter and have a tube that pulls the beer back up into the same container, and they can filter the water 100 times if they want. I don't have anything that fancy. Now I understand what you are saying, having the water heated with the heat source directly beneath it. I've messed some shit up a few times like that. Makes a lot of sense actually, the water at the top near the thermostat is at 155 but the water at the very bottom with the grains touching the bottom of the pan separated only by a bag keeping the grains and the water separate, is basically touching metal that is over 212, so those grains at the bottom are being boiled and the flavor is mixing in with the rest of the pot. I have basically done just what you are saying, I heat the water to 160, pour it into a container with the grains and cover the container and leave it in there for an hour. After about an hour the water is at 125 F(5 gallons takes awhile to cool), and I then remove the grains and assume(yes that word again) that the grains were in the water at 155 for a good bit. Now you might start saying "well most of the grains washed below 150 so you'd have a very dry beer" let's not get into all those details right now. Dry or sweet, whatever, the enzymes should be active and most of the sugar washes out of the grains. I know most of the sugar washes out of the grains, because at that point I can taste the water and it tastes super sweet as shit. From here I pour the water back into the pot and add hops and boil for one hour. I then try and cool the water as quickly as possibly, and when the temp drops below 90 F I go ahead and pitch the yeast. So far this has worked fine, the only times I've ran into problems was washing the grains above 160 F. As I've said I don't have a false bottom and a filter that filters the beer as many times as I want pumping it back into the same container. Perhaps those times I mashed the beer above 160 F I did something else wrong as well. I can't tell you what The biggest mistakes I've made so far have been 1) washing the beer at too high a temp 2) using wrong ingredients, a grain bill incorrectly measured, as an example not a mistake I've made personally but as an example you stated yourself if I had made a rye beer with over 50% rye grains. 3) infection, not boiling the after wash beer with hops at a long enough temperature, not sanitizing the equipment enough 4) last but not least, opening the container, pouring the beer early, syphoning too early, and as you said syphoning isn't entirely necessary. I didn't think so, I know yeast is sour, but the yeast cake practically seals itself to the bottom of the container, so I can't imagine how that could mix with the beer anyway It's not as though I'm trying to blow smoke up your ass. I appreciate the help and the advice, and I wish I understood more things I could look for that could isolate the answer for you. Perhaps it's not something I'm doing during the wash, as I've made beers that I tried right after I pitched the yeast, and although it didn't taste wonderful, it just tasted like sweet grainy water with a slight yeasteyness, it tasted quite alright and then later when the fermentation was finished it tasted like shit. Upon the facts and information I've given you so far, what else could I look for in terms of different variables that might further isolate bad batches in the future? I've had no problems making wine, though it wasn't always at the quality of a $50 bottle from a vintage chateau aged in an oak barrel for 4 years, it didn't taste as though it had any problems to me. Perhaps I am making a serious critical mistake. I thought it had to do with incorrect ingredient ratios when I prepared the grain bill, and incorrectly made washes at temps too high. I've had NO problems with fermentation, other then some beers fermenting in like 8 days and others taking 28 days, but I figured that this was due to different yeast strains and temperature variations during fermentation although all fermentation’s have been between 68 and 77 degrees. But it's always filled up with tons of C02 and had alcohol. I've had some strange gravity readings where some beers with the same 2 row ratio for the grain bill came out at 3% and others at 7%, I just figured that was from using different recipes with different grains that provided different ratios of ferment able sugars. Are there any other variables I can play around with that could give you a definite answer of what I'm doing wrong? Perhaps you are right and I should skip syphoning into a secondary fermentor all together, I can just go right from primary into the keg. I want to nail down any mistakes I might make to correct them in the future but I'm telling you so far my only changed variables have been the wash temperature and I've gotten drastically different results from each wash I've done just altering the temperature 5 degrees or so -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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I've heard other advice is that you cannot over pitch yeast. If you want to pitch 15 billion cells, go for it! This helps ensure a healthier beer fermentation with less chance of other bacteria spoiling the fermentation and competing with the yeast. Along with a longer boil, that helps as well right?
For example I could try one way where I wash the grains at 165 F and then boil for 45 minutes. Now another way I could wash for the grains at 148 F and then boil for an hour and 45 minutes right? Perhaps as you said, the huge difference between 148 F and 165 F might not be as big a difference except for a drier or sweeter beer, but the length of time I boil at might effect the finished product. Less time boiling = greater chance for infection and from what I've read boiling actually helps the enzymes break down the sugars faster(at least from what I've read.) The 148 temp begins the active the enzymes, but even with the starches broken down and the yeasts eating the remaining sugars, (once again, from what I've read), the longer that you boil the more likely more longer sugar chains will be broken down, and the more sugar chains not broken down, the greater the chance other micro biotics will eat the sugars the yeast can't eat and contaminate the beer, right? Of course the main reason I read not the mash in the 178 range and to stay in the 148 to 155 range is to not take chances that you will wash out unwanted enzymes and grain tannins as well as un necessary sugars. In fact I thought you yourself said that, that washing above 160 will activate a different range of enzymes, and those enzymes will create un wanted flavors. Now you are saying sparging at 178 is no big deal? How can both these facts not be contradictory? Sorry if I'm confused but I could have sworn you said those two things together -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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meat popsicle Registered: 10/26/13 Posts: 1,039 Loc: Eastern Canadia Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: Honestly man. Listen. It's called sparging. SPARGING. Not washing. You sparge the grain, not wash. AND YOU ARE WRONG. You need to sparge at 180 degrees because you want to STOP the enzymes after the hour mark and the hot water helps flush out sugars. There is NO off flavour from sparging with water that is "too hot" (180df). Your off flavours must be coming from cooking your grain. As you say, when the grain at the bottom contacts a 212 degree pot it will cause all kinds of off flavours. NEVER HEAT THE MASH. People often add boiling water to the mash right at the end in a step called a "mash out" where you rapidly increase the temperature of the mash by adding boiling water to stop the enzymes. If you have a very good control over your system and you say want a dry beer, but not too dry and you don't want those enzymes continuing to chew away throughout there sparge and while you heat the boil you could mash out to stop enzymatic activity, then sparge and boil. Hot water is NOT the issue. I'm trying to be clear on this - can you tell? Also, you don't need a mash tun with a false bottom. I happen to use a stainless steel braid in the bottom of mine but I don't filter it 100's of times "like the breweries" (says the guy who's learning how to brew...). You can mash in a pot, just use the method I said before. Heat strike water to 168 df, add grains, insulate and wait. Then pour off the liquid, add 180 df sparge water and pour off. Additionally, by heating the mash directly you are destroying the very enzymes that were converting starch to sugar for you by overheating. This is your big mistake, everything else should be fine. Stop blaming "too hot" sparge water - it's not the problem I guarantee you. Dude... your last post... sparging at 148 bad idea... boiling for 45 minutes will throw off your bitterness... don't pitch a ton of yeast... one pack of dry yeast is more than enough..... YOU DON"T MASH OUTSIDE THE 148-155 RANGE. READ man. You take 168 degree water and add your grain, this cools the water to 155 df. Then you hold it there and SPARGE at 180 DF. For fuck sake.... This has been done literally for thousands of years to develop this process. I'm not trying to trick you, you are just wrong and seemingly unwilling to learn. I've tried but I think I'll stop - it takes so long to correct all your bad info and assumptions
Edited by urthtown (02/05/14 05:59 AM)
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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See, you are not even understanding what the fuck I am saying, so it's making it literally impossible for me to speak to you, and I'm not understanding why I'm continuing to do so
I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT TEMPERATURES TOO HOT IN A SPARGE, I AM TALKING ABOUT TEMPERATURES TOO HOT DURING A MASH, DID YOU READ ANYTHING I FUCKING SAID????????? Ok, now that that is out of the way, hopefully we can move on from the conversation. WHILE THE GRAINS AND THE HOT WATER ARE TOGETHER (not touching a heat source) It is a good idea not to bring the temperature over 155. In fact as I was saying, to me it's better to heat the water to 160, remove the heat source, pour the water over the grains with something such as a grain bag separating the water and grains, and allow the hot water and grains to wash at 155. AFTER WARDS DURING A SPARGE YES I COULDN'T CARE LESS HOW HOT IT IS As I've said at that point once I filter out the grains, I pretty much just pour the water back into a huge pot on the heat source, and boil for one hour. I'm not even sure WHY you'd stop the enzymes from doing their job, it seems to me the enzymes couldn't break down too much sugars. BUT either way this is accomplished when I boil the remaining beer mix with hops for one hour AFTER THE WASH Ok, we got that out of the way? No more confusing my high temp cautioning with sparge temperatures when I'm speaking of MASH temperatures? And the web site I found didn't say to sparge at 175 it said to mash at 175, which is why I thought it was extremely retarded. And there IS extremely retarded advice on the web, there is no need to argue that, I'm not saying which sources are or aren't anymore, but some web sites give a ton of just really bad fucking information. Much better to avoid sites that you can't cross reference the info provided about 100 times. Fair enough? No more advice saying "you should sparge at 178!" right? Please, don't confuse I said not to WASH over 155, I didn't say don't SPARGE over 178. Not sure at all where you are confusing what I'm saying here, but hopefully this ends the confusion
-------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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Glass Blower Registered: 07/08/12 Posts: 5,288 Loc: Pee En Double You |
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Quote: Quote: Quote: Dude you said wash ![]() IF you were talking about a mash, you should have said mash. When you sparge you are basically "washing" the grains with hot water. So you see where the confusion could come into play. Take a yoHe is just trying to help you -------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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I loved and lost but I loved-ftw Registered: 06/06/07 Posts: 31,372 Loc: You get banned for saying that Last seen: 19 hours, 37 minutes |
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oops
right, mash. mash wash turn the m upside down. Mistake mistakes -------------------- I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties! I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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meat popsicle Registered: 10/26/13 Posts: 1,039 Loc: Eastern Canadia Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: RDWHAHB Quote: We all make em. I mistook "wash" for sparge. As sparging is essentially rinsing or washing the grains I assumed that's what you were talking about. Sorry, but just underscores why terminology is important when communicating! There is an amazing resource in online forums like this and the one I posted the link to. They are wealths of knowledge if you are willing to take the time to search out sound information that works with where you are coming from. -------------------- Cluster Headache sufferer? Cluster Busting Veil Tear GIF Flower Pot Grow GIF Mini Mono Tub GIFS "All mushrooms are edible, but some only once." -- Croatian Proverb
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Enlil's Official Story Registered: 10/31/04 Posts: 21,407 Loc: Building 7 |
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Quote: The confusion, is you seem to keep wanting to use the term WASH. No real brewer would do that. So, at least right now, hopefully this ends the confusion. I mean WTF bro? Are you serious? No, methinks you may be trolling on the river. Hate to say that, but this is getting silly. GO fucking WASH your hair, then brew a batch with some fucking SPARGE water. Easy, right? -------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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part-time Ninja Registered: 08/17/06 Posts: 2,735 Loc: Loc:Loc:Loc:Loc: Last seen: 5 years, 2 months |
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Quote: This is not true. Higher temps favor longer chain sugars (which are less fermentable, as you said.). Additionally, the enzymes don't fully denature until around 165 degrees fahrenheit. I've mashed beers at 160 with no issues whatsoever (this is the strategy of Pliny the Elder and nearly all beers by Lagunitas). Also, the recent issue from the American Society of Brewing Chemists had a very convincing, peer reviewed article that demonstrated higher mash temps don't actually impact the fermentability of the wort, or the potential finishing gravity of the beer. I'm not fully sold on that yet since it flies in the face of 100's of years of brewing tradition, but it made some interesting points.
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I know so little about this stuff but that's cool I didn't know you could buy the unprocessed hops online without being a grower yourself. 
I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
unless you want to 
yo