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Offlineimachavel
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thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting
    #19460878 - 01/23/14 03:27 AM (10 years, 6 days ago)

So Ive made beer a few times and was impressed by the results meaning the alcohol and carbonation of fermenting yeast but the flavor to me is always off I always get tannins when washing the malted grains even if just slightly, it drastically effects the flavor of the beer.

Now obviously besides the pain of washing beer grain at a perfect temperature between 155 and 165 f the point isnt just dissolving starches from grain but activating amylase enzyme which breaks down starches into sugars to ferment.

BUT because I dont want to do a partial wash I was thinking of washing rolled oats basically steeping them in a grain bag to dissolve all the starch then pitching yeast after the wort has cooled but prior adding some hops and a little honey to boil all the flavors together. Why honey? I hear it contains a similar enzyme to amylase that breaks down starch perhaps from bee saliva? Then I wouldnt have to do a partial grain wash.

Is this educated or not? I dont know much about honey but just need that enzyme to break down the starches in the rolled oats. Or perhaps ginger root? Doing a wash with rolled oats and ginger root should work, since for some reason ginger root contains amylase, Im wondering if ginger root would fuck up the flavor? Probably not after a lengthy fermentation Id imagine the flavors would all mix


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Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: imachavel]
    #19460970 - 01/23/14 04:42 AM (10 years, 6 days ago)

I have been making meads and ciders and some of the meads I have made I used malt/hops that I mashed and sparged. The malt was crystal malt and I read that crystal malt does not have sufficeient sugars to ferment, but I had a shitload of honey since it was mead anyway. It turned out pretty good. I don't know if this helps you at but I thought I would post it anyway


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Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: imachavel]
    #19461050 - 01/23/14 05:50 AM (10 years, 6 days ago)

I don't think the honey will do what mashing of grain would.  Of course it will ferment but just not break down the starches to sugar? 

Maybe you just need to make a nice oatmeal stout and detail your procedures.  Perhaps you can avoid those tannins with better techniques...


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19461842 - 01/23/14 10:23 AM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
I have been making meads and ciders and some of the meads I have made I used malt/hops that I mashed and sparged. The malt was crystal malt and I read that crystal malt does not have sufficeient sugars to ferment, but I had a shitload of honey since it was mead anyway. It turned out pretty good. I don't know if this helps you at but I thought I would post it anyway




crystal malt definitely has sufficient sugars to ferment, but they are in starch, so you have to sparge it to release the enzymes that break down the starches, which clearly you did :tongue:

I made some mead, and it came out good, but un carbonated for some reason. It was pretty simple and tasted like wine. I never made it again because it was too sweet it was sweeter then any wine I ever drank, but I have since used a little honey in all my beer fermentation’s considering it is good to start the yeast and also not to mention I read online about antibacterial properties honey has. Of course it's anti bacterial properties are due to the fact that it's dehydrated sugar and therefore can't ferment or become infected and decompose from other bacteria, which putting in water should remove these properties. HOWEVER, I read also it has other anti bacterial properties from enzymes in the bees stomachs when the beer is made, so the yeast basically gets a full feast on it un bothered when it's pitched and the honey is suspended in water. Of course if you use the water to sparge and it is above 155 f and even closer to 200 f when you use it to sparge, everything should be sanitized anyway


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #19461853 - 01/23/14 10:27 AM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
I don't think the honey will do what mashing of grain would.  Of course it will ferment but just not break down the starches to sugar? 

Maybe you just need to make a nice oatmeal stout and detail your procedures.  Perhaps you can avoid those tannins with better techniques...




hopefully, and I'm going to grind up a ginger root and sparge it with the oatmeal as well, since online sources say it contains enzymes that will break down starches. I was just wondering if anyone else had done this. Well I'll do the experiment then come discuss if it works or not if you can sparge rolling oats with ginger root then pitch yeast and ferment the whole thing or if you are required to do a partial mash with 2 row malt barley or what not

I'll go with 155 F but I probably can go ahead and just sparge as high as I want considering I'm not doing a grain wash and worrying about all the tannins.


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Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: imachavel]
    #19463013 - 01/23/14 02:59 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
I have been making meads and ciders and some of the meads I have made I used malt/hops that I mashed and sparged. The malt was crystal malt and I read that crystal malt does not have sufficeient sugars to ferment, but I had a shitload of honey since it was mead anyway. It turned out pretty good. I don't know if this helps you at but I thought I would post it anyway




crystal malt definitely has sufficient sugars to ferment, but they are in starch, so you have to sparge it to release the enzymes that break down the starches, which clearly you did :tongue:

I made some mead, and it came out good, but un carbonated for some reason. It was pretty simple and tasted like wine. I never made it again because it was too sweet it was sweeter then any wine I ever drank, but I have since used a little honey in all my beer fermentation’s considering it is good to start the yeast and also not to mention I read online about antibacterial properties honey has. Of course it's anti bacterial properties are due to the fact that it's dehydrated sugar and therefore can't ferment or become infected and decompose from other bacteria, which putting in water should remove these properties. HOWEVER, I read also it has other anti bacterial properties from enzymes in the bees stomachs when the beer is made, so the yeast basically gets a full feast on it un bothered when it's pitched and the honey is suspended in water. Of course if you use the water to sparge and it is above 155 f and even closer to 200 f when you use it to sparge, everything should be sanitized anyway





I read on a brewing website, dont remember which on I read so many, that crystal malt toasted at 120 lovibond had no sugars to ferment because it was so toasted

I will try to find the link

I have made several meads and none of them have been sweet. I even make hard ciders that are not sweet. I do not know if it is because I use yeasts with high alcohol tolerance and it uses all the sugar available or what, but they are usually around 12-15%

And they are always un-carbonated until bottling, you add 1/4 cup of honey per gallon right before bottling and the slight fermentation of the added sugar will carbonate it


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19463086 - 01/23/14 03:14 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

that's very cool, the mead I made was WAY too sweet. I probably used too much honey and not all of it could ferment since I used an ale beer top feeding yeast instead of a turbo yeast and beer yeasts can only survive in I think max 15% alcohol content

I'd like to know the ratio of honey to liquid you used. I don't like that turbo yeast though, it's great for fermenting the shit out of something and getting a strong alcohol content, but it smells and tastes like shit like a whole gallon full of yeasty dirty socks to me it's only good for making a strong mash that you plan to distill the alcohol out of, and although I did make a successful home distiller once funny enough that I got the idea from this thread on google:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14009207

I am by no means a master distiller. My concept was a little different I took a metal copper tube and a pressure cooker, put them together and distilled a lot of liquid out of the copper tube. Although the liquid did taste like a shit load of alcohol it still tasted too watery. I know of course to get 190 proof you are supposed to distill two or three times, and I didn't even try setting the current liquid I got out on fire. But none the less I hear there is an inch or so of methanol that comes out of the tube because methanol evaporates at an even lower temperature then ethanol, and eventually it just became kind of a pain in the ass and I realized distilling wasn't for me. Anyway sorry to change the subject I was just discussing different yeasts I've only used basic ale yeast like wyeast except not that brand because I don't like the liquid when I can use one yeast packet bag to pitch and ferment like 5 different batches, a lager yeast a bottom feeder and I ended up ruining that beer because I fermented it at 62 and lagers need colder temperature to ferment evenly, and one time the turbo yeast I used to make the mash I distilled later

I suppose if you were really good at temperature and fermenting etc. you could take that turbo yeast and make a really good beer but to me I wouldn't be able to figure out flavor/temperature/ingredient ratio to get a good flavour from the turbo yeast it to me was just disgusting like a mountain of yeast fermenting roughly a gallon of sugars


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

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OfflineNizzyJones
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Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: imachavel]
    #19463123 - 01/23/14 03:22 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

You don't need a turbo yeast for mead,most any wine yeast will do, but yeah, beer yeast isn't gonna get anywhere near even 15% unless it's some diesel, high tolerance stuff.

Your typical dry mead is around 12-13%, which takes about 2.5 lb honey / Gal.


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Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19463207 - 01/23/14 03:37 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Crystal malt has plenty of sugars dude. they're literally baked onto the grains during the process. what you're thinking of tha it lacks is the enzymes to convert any starches in any other grains you may want to use. basically, the kilning process makes it void of enzymes but it definitely contains fermentable sugars.

The sweetness of mead is largely determinened by the yeast strain and its given attenuation tendencies. 
  If you were to use champagne yeast, you'd have extremely dry, thin bodied high alcohol mead.
If you were to use one like say, pasteur red, you'd have a reasonably sweet mead.

Ginger will definitely alter the flavor of your oatmeal beer man, but I'm having trouble understanding how oats are giving you an issue with tannic flavors... I've used plenty of oats and never had a flavor I'd describe as tannic...  just smooth, creamy, oaty...ect

I like to argue that sparge temps aren't too critical. aside from the blatant fact that warm water rinses sugars marginally better than cold, and the temp raise to 170 will kill wild yeasts ect. hell, ive made raw ales never past 155 with full ice water sparge. (For curiosity's sake) and with probable luck, they all worked out... Also I wouldn't trust raw oats to be converted by either ginger or honey but I don't have much knowledge of their possible enzyme content.

Personaly I'd recommend using 2, or 6 row barley to do the conversion.
    For a diagnosis of where exactly your tannic flavors are coming from, we'll need details on brew process, recipe, and anything else you feel would help pinpoint it.


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Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: Oeric McKenna]
    #19463340 - 01/23/14 04:12 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Oeric McKenna said:
Crystal malt has plenty of sugars dude. they're literally baked onto the grains during the process. what you're thinking of tha it lacks is the enzymes to convert any starches in any other grains you may want to use. basically, the kilning process makes it void of enzymes but it definitely contains fermentable sugars.








It sounds like you are implying that they add sugar to crystal malt? They don't.

Quote:

Crystal malts are prepared separately from pale malts. They are high-nitrogen malts that are wetted and roasted in a rotating drum before kilning. They produce strongly sweet toffee-like flavors and are sufficiently converted that they can be steeped without mashing to extract their flavor. Crystal malts are available in a range of colors, with darker-colored crystal malts kilned at higher temperatures producing stronger, more caramel-like overtones. Some of the sugars in crystal malts caramelize during kilning and become unfermentable; hence, addition of crystal malt will increase the final sweetness of a beer. They contain no enzymes. ASBC 50-165/EBC 90–320; the typical British crystal malt used in pale ale and bitter is around ASBC 70–80.






The original piece I read it in is no longer up but I found this:

Quote:

Crystal malt[edit]


A paler example of Crystal malt
Crystal malts are prepared separately from pale malts. They are high-nitrogen malts that are wetted and roasted in a rotating drum before kilning. They produce strongly sweet toffee-like flavors and are sufficiently converted that they can be steeped without mashing to extract their flavor. Crystal malts are available in a range of colors, with darker-colored crystal malts kilned at higher temperatures producing stronger, more caramel-like overtones. Some of the sugars in crystal malts caramelize during kilning and become unfermentable; hence, addition of crystal malt will increase the final sweetness of a beer. They contain no enzymes. ASBC 50-165/EBC 90–320; the typical British crystal malt used in pale ale and bitter is around ASBC 70–80.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mash_ingredients#Crystal_malt




It does have fermentable sugars, just less


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InvisibleOeric McKenna
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Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19463380 - 01/23/14 04:22 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Nope definitely not implying that my man. its sugars from the very grain itself.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: Oeric McKenna]
    #19463752 - 01/23/14 05:42 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Oeric McKenna said:
Crystal malt has plenty of sugars dude. they're literally baked onto the grains during the process. what you're thinking of tha it lacks is the enzymes to convert any starches in any other grains you may want to use. basically, the kilning process makes it void of enzymes but it definitely contains fermentable sugars.

The sweetness of mead is largely determinened by the yeast strain and its given attenuation tendencies. 
  If you were to use champagne yeast, you'd have extremely dry, thin bodied high alcohol mead.
If you were to use one like say, pasteur red, you'd have a reasonably sweet mead.

Ginger will definitely alter the flavor of your oatmeal beer man, but I'm having trouble understanding how oats are giving you an issue with tannic flavors... I've used plenty of oats and never had a flavor I'd describe as tannic...  just smooth, creamy, oaty...ect

I like to argue that sparge temps aren't too critical. aside from the blatant fact that warm water rinses sugars marginally better than cold, and the temp raise to 170 will kill wild yeasts ect. hell, ive made raw ales never past 155 with full ice water sparge. (For curiosity's sake) and with probable luck, they all worked out... Also I wouldn't trust raw oats to be converted by either ginger or honey but I don't have much knowledge of their possible enzyme content.

Personaly I'd recommend using 2, or 6 row barley to do the conversion.
    For a diagnosis of where exactly your tannic flavors are coming from, we'll need details on brew process, recipe, and anything else you feel would help pinpoint it.




I'll come up with details in the future. Maybe in a entirely separate thread. I appreciate the help, but mostly was just asking in this thread if anyone had knowledge about other things containing enzymes that break down starch into sugar besides malted grains. I heard someone once malted cannabis seeds and made a beer of it, but it wasn't extremely high quality beer, none the less it was better then absolute crap

I do of course have some sources saying that a-amylase is within root ginger:

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3737&start=0

although I have no idea why to be 100% honest, does root ginger need specific starches converted to sugar? Well I guess so, but then why does a root like ginger need that but a root like potato doesn't?


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


Edited by imachavel (01/23/14 05:44 PM)


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InvisibleOeric McKenna
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Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: imachavel]
    #19464031 - 01/23/14 06:30 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Yeah its neat stuff. I'm not overly familiar with what else may have the enzymes.
I always thought it was cool to experiment with small amounts of barley and large adjuncts like whole pumpkins and things like that.
I think ginger also contains some kind of either yeast or bacteria that can ferment certain sugars what are unfermentable by beer yeasts causing exploded or overcarbonated bottles over time. 
 
Brewing is so cool. right?


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Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: Oeric McKenna]
    #19464226 - 01/23/14 07:11 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Oeric McKenna said:

Brewing is so cool. right?





:nodofunderstanding:


It is fucking amazing, I love just sitting there watching the yeast fart out all that co2 and all the bubbles rising


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Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19466401 - 01/24/14 07:27 AM (10 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

Oeric McKenna said:

Brewing is so cool. right?





:nodofunderstanding:


It is fucking amazing, I love just sitting there watching the yeast fart out all that co2 and all the bubbles rising




Very cool to watch, BUT I cover the beer even during ferment as much as possible.  Light is the enemy!  Well one enemy.


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Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #19466763 - 01/24/14 09:46 AM (10 years, 5 days ago)

Yup.
I remember my first batch and in hindsight I'm glad it came out so good.
"Wow this tastes really good...I CANT BELIEVE THIS"
Followed by
" Wow its strong too, I got myself drunk with my own product, yesssss"

  So that first one inspired me but most future failures came from curiosity, like "hey I wonder how much real chocolate I could get away with" only to learn that 5 lbs was too much...

I think most of my other personal flops were from beer souring bacteria allowed by low gravity ales in summer heat. still hitting the mark about 99% of the time tho even with the wild experimentation which hopefully will never end.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: Oeric McKenna]
    #19467242 - 01/24/14 11:54 AM (10 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Oeric McKenna said:
Yeah its neat stuff. I'm not overly familiar with what else may have the enzymes.
I always thought it was cool to experiment with small amounts of barley and large adjuncts like whole pumpkins and things like that.
I think ginger also contains some kind of either yeast or bacteria that can ferment certain sugars what are unfermentable by beer yeasts causing exploded or overcarbonated bottles over time. 
 
Brewing is so cool. right?




It IS so cool! But also very frusterating! It takes weeks of patience, but yeah it IS fascinating. I made wine in two weeks and while not the best wine in the world, it was VERY drinkable. Beer isnt necessarily hard to ferment, Ive gotten alcohol and carbonation a billion times, but very often with beer Ive fucked up the flavor a million times with sour grain tannins or other. Wine to me is MUCH easier, although aging drastically helps the flavor.

But yes its ASTOUNDINGLY fascinating. One day when I rig up a good distiller and try out the turbo yeast again Ill give making liquor another shot and do up some moon shine


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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InvisibleOeric McKenna
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Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: imachavel]
    #19468022 - 01/24/14 02:42 PM (10 years, 5 days ago)

Don't give up on the art of good beer my man.  lots of help for you around brother


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Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #19468262 - 01/24/14 03:48 PM (10 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

Oeric McKenna said:

Brewing is so cool. right?





:nodofunderstanding:


It is fucking amazing, I love just sitting there watching the yeast fart out all that co2 and all the bubbles rising




Very cool to watch, BUT I cover the beer even during ferment as much as possible.  Light is the enemy!  Well one enemy.





I keep it covered as well and take off the cover to watch it sometimes, only at night in dim lighting of course


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Re: thinking of brewing oatmeal beer and a few questions about fermenting [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19468698 - 01/24/14 05:38 PM (10 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

Oeric McKenna said:

Brewing is so cool. right?





:nodofunderstanding:


It is fucking amazing, I love just sitting there watching the yeast fart out all that co2 and all the bubbles rising




Very cool to watch, BUT I cover the beer even during ferment as much as possible.  Light is the enemy!  Well one enemy.





I keep it covered as well and take off the cover to watch it sometimes, only at night in dim lighting of course




Of course lol.


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* I need to eat food when I'm camping mr_kite 2,492 16 05/30/04 03:18 PM
by Mixomatosis

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