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Anonymous

crime & punishment.
    #1945892 - 09/23/03 09:58 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

i was doing some thinking... and i don't think that punishment for crimes is right. what's the point of punishment? why is it justice? how is punishment ethical? i don't think that it should be a part of our system.

prisons should be a place where inmates are removed from society and forced to work until they've paid some meaningful restitution to the victims of their crime. they should also be forced to work so as to pay for their lodging while in prison. prison should be a place of hard labor.

once they've paid off their debt, and appear to be rehabilitated enough to be safe to let back into society, they should be let free.

i suppose the bulk of what i'm really wondering is about punishment. what is it? is it not the same as vengeance? what's the point of it? how is it ethical? shouldn't our justice system have more rational ends in mind?

... just some musings and wanderings of mine.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: crime & punishment. [Re: ]
    #1945977 - 09/23/03 10:30 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

deterrence?


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Anonymous

Re: crime & punishment. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1946013 - 09/23/03 10:38 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

yeah that's what i was thinking... but who are they deterring?

if the point is to deter the convict himself, then that's one thing.

but i think we're talking about other people. why should you have to spend more time in jail to deter other people from commiting criminal acts?

once you've paid your debt, and appear to be safe in society... you're just in jail as an example to others? doesn't seem right.


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: crime & punishment. [Re: ]
    #1946064 - 09/23/03 10:55 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I'm with you on this. The primary purpose of incarceration should be to protect the innocent from any further harm. The secondary purpose should be to make restitution to those harmed. The tertiary purpose should be rehabilitation.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: crime & punishment. [Re: ]
    #1947054 - 09/24/03 07:27 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I agree. Punishment of some kind can be useful for children and young animals, for negative imprinting. Adults on the other hand have already formed their imprints. Most adults don't need deterrents in order to abstain from stealing and murdering. And of those who don't abstain, many are psychopaths who aren't deterred either.


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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 691
Last seen: 13 years, 4 days
Re: crime & punishment. [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1947506 - 09/24/03 12:36 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The court system has a few purposes. First of all, it provides an objective "legal" manner fo rwhich the victims can get "revenge". Secondly, the manner of punishment (should) serve as a deterrant

When a person commits a crime against another, or against society, society demands retribution. It would be pandemonem if each person that was wronged decided when, how and what their retribution against the criminal would be. So, we create a system where an impartial judge and jury make teh decision. That way the family of the victim (or the victim, if they are still alive) can get justice, while not having to go out and seek revenge against the criminal themselves.

Secondly, the form of punishment for a crime should match the crimes severity, and thus, be a deterrant for that crime. If the criminals actually thought about their crime (or if the justice system wasn't so oriented on making criminals feel good) and the ramifications of their crime, they wouldn't commit the crimes. Sadly, that doesn't work as much as it should.

eliminating punishment would do no good whatsoever. The reason that murders are on the rise (as a trend, in the past 100 years) is beacuse murderers no longer fear the police or the justice system. A few public hangings / beheadings could quickly change that.


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
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Re: crime & punishment. [Re: lysergic]
    #1947510 - 09/24/03 12:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Also, I'd like to ask my almost famous question I ask to those that critizie the norm...


what
should
we
do?


In lieu of punishment? Maybe we should give the person a gold star and a super fun group hug! yay teddybears and rainbows. Of course, thats bullshit thought up by people who don't live in reality.


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Anonymous

Re: crime & punishment. [Re: lysergic]
    #1947562 - 09/24/03 12:59 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

fo rwhich the victims can get "revenge".

and what is revenge? how is it justice? how is it ethical?

Secondly, the manner of punishment (should) serve as a deterrant

for whom? some people should, after they've repaid their debt and appear safe to allow back into society, remain behind bars for no other reason than to serve as an example to others?

When a person commits a crime against another, or against society, society demands retribution.

how can one commit a crime against "society"? aren't the victims of any criminal act certain specific individuals? and isn't restitution more important, logical, and just than retribution?

It would be pandemonem if each person that was wronged decided when, how and what their retribution against the criminal would be. So, we create a system where an impartial judge and jury make teh decision.

why should there be retribution at all? how is revenge ethical? again... doesn't it make more sense to force convicts to pay restitution and work for their cell until they seem to be safe to let back into society?... once they've finished that, keeping them in prison is pointless.

That way the family of the victim (or the victim, if they are still alive) can get justice, while not having to go out and seek revenge against the criminal themselves.

same fundamental question. what justice is there in revenge?

if someone wrongs you, they should have to repay you for what they've done. they should also be removed from society so they aren't a threat to anyone else.

simply harming them back does you no good at all.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: crime & punishment. [Re: lysergic]
    #1947580 - 09/24/03 01:06 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

what
should
we
do?




If the criminal is dangerous, lock him up, without any time limit. Release should only be considered when the criminal is judged to be non-dangerous.

And for both dangerous and non-dangerous criminals, they owe economic restitution to the victims of their crime. For crimes that have no victims the payment will be zero of course, so such crimes can be automatically removed from the books right away.


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Offlineuneasyone
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Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 299
Loc: SE united states
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Re: crime & punishment. [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1953556 - 09/26/03 08:03 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

i only have one question how do you pay restitution for murder,rape, or child molestation? in those kinds of situations i think that the good old public execution approach would be the best coarse of action. as for crimes such as theft i think you are right they should have to pay for it with hard labor but this country is so fucked up someone with a personal supply of controled substance's can be punished more severly than rapist or child molestor.


--------------------
anything i might say is just something i heard from the voices in my head
uneasy1


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Anonymous

Re: crime & punishment. [Re: uneasyone]
    #1953750 - 09/26/03 09:59 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

i only have one question how do you pay restitution for murder,rape, or child molestation?

with a hell of alot of hard labor. if the victim is dead, restitution goes to next of kin.


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Offlineuneasyone
tokin theMacGyver bong

Registered: 06/12/03
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Re: crime & punishment. [Re: ]
    #1953912 - 09/26/03 11:35 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

is any amount of money equal to a human life i don't think so. they should pay with the only thing they have of equal value their own life.


--------------------
anything i might say is just something i heard from the voices in my head
uneasy1


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Anonymous

Re: crime & punishment. [Re: uneasyone]
    #1953922 - 09/26/03 11:40 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

who are they paying?

it's not as though they die and their life force magically leaves them to go reanimate their dead victim.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: crime & punishment. [Re: ]
    #1953949 - 09/26/03 11:59 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

it's not as though they die and their life force magically leaves them to go reanimate their dead victim.



Right. If the criminal is killed he certainly won't be able to pay anything to anyone. As long as he's alive there is at least some hope of this happening.


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
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Re: crime & punishment. [Re: ]
    #1953955 - 09/26/03 12:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

They are repaying society I guess. To me executing viscous murderers is kind of like putting down a rabid dog. It is meant to protect society more than anything.


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Offlineuneasyone
tokin theMacGyver bong

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 299
Loc: SE united states
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Re: crime & punishment. [Re: shakta]
    #1954039 - 09/26/03 12:49 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

i beleive it's to make an example to let people know that there are some things you just don't do if you kill someone you are taking everything they have and everything they ever going to have so if you do that to someone you deserve to have all taken from you


--------------------
anything i might say is just something i heard from the voices in my head
uneasy1


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Anonymous

Re: crime & punishment. [Re: uneasyone]
    #1954061 - 09/26/03 01:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

no offense dude, but learn some punctuation....

i beleive it's to make an example to let people know that there are some things you just don't do if you kill someone you are taking everything they have and everything they ever going to have so if you do that to someone you deserve to have all taken from you

why? how does it help anyone?

as far as being an example to others... after you've made restitution, and are deemed safe to let back into society, you should not have to remain incarcerated simply as a deterrent to other people.

if a person spends the rest of their life working inside a jail, paying restitution to the loved ones of the person they murdered, isn't this a hell of alot better than executing them?


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
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Re: crime & punishment. [Re: ]
    #1954200 - 09/26/03 01:52 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

For your idea to work, prisons would have to be money makers. As we all know they are not. If they were, then anything prisoners maid could be given as restitution.


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Offlineuneasyone
tokin theMacGyver bong

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 299
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Re: crime & punishment. [Re: shakta]
    #1956762 - 09/27/03 10:02 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

just how much money do you think someone who has commited murder should pay to the family of the victim. $100,000-$1,000,000 in a prison system where most people don't even know how to read how do you expect someone to make that kind of money.


--------------------
anything i might say is just something i heard from the voices in my head
uneasy1


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: crime & punishment. [Re: ]
    #1956806 - 09/27/03 11:06 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

with a hell of alot of hard labor. if the victim is dead, restitution goes to next of kin.

I can't really see many parents wanting a cheque for $50 a month falling through their door in "restitution" from the guy who murdered their child.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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