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OfflineHannibal88
Aryan Psychonaut
Registered: 07/03/03
Posts: 71
Loc: farfromvalhalla
Last seen: 18 years, 25 days
MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING * 1
    #1945207 - 09/23/03 06:44 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Rapid Mycelial Pinning Response Via Temperature Cycling: A Prelude
By C. Thomas
cheatsman43@yahoo.com
9/23/03

Bottom Line: With this method, you can get your casing to pin whenever you want it to, regardless of how much the mycelium has grown in. Read: No more waiting 2+ weeks for pinning. I?m eager for someone else to try this to see if they have the same success.

Background:
I generally let my casing pans grow at 86 degrees for four days to speed up mycelial colonization of the soil, and then subsequently cold-shock the pan and leave it at 75 degrees until pinning begins.

But recently, I had one pan with which I did this, but I was not satisfied with its colonization level. So I decided to put the pan back at 86 degrees overnight, in hopes that it would grow in a bit more.

The next day, I pulled the pan out again, figuring it was sufficiently colonized, since it would grow in a bit more anyway (though it was not well colonized for pinning). This time, I didn?t bother to cold shock it the pan, but instead just put it back out at 75 degrees and left it there

What happened next was startling. Within 24 hours, the relatively un-colonized pan had started to initiate pinning, even though the casing wasn?t nearly as colonized as pans I had previously prepared.

At this point, a signal went off in my mind. This process had previously taken two weeks (give or take) of waiting and hoping that the soil didn?t get overlay. Now, I suddenly had a 5-day-old, semi-colonized pan shooting up mushrooms at a very predictable time. The temperature cycles were key.

The Cycle:
Here?s what I did in the first trial:

The substrate was inoculated, colonized at 86 degrees, and subsequently broken up and made into casing. Casing was kept at 86 degrees for two days, after which additional casing soil was applied over whatever mycelium that had popped through the soil. The pan was placed back at 86 degrees for two more days (so 4 days total at 86F). It was then removed and cold-shocked in the refrigerator overnight. The pan was put at 75 degrees for 1-2 days, and then placed back into 86 degree conditions overnight. Finally, it was removed, and once again placed at 75 degrees.

The result was that pins began to form within about 24 hours. Keep in mind that this first trial was not intentional, and was rather early, since the mycelium had not spread to the surface very extensively.

My Recommendations:
Put at 86 degrees for 2 days. Check pan, cover mycelium over with casing. Keep at 86 for 3 more days. Cold shock overnight. Place at 75 degrees for 2 days. Place at 86 degrees overnight. Place at 75, and wait.

This will come out to approximately 5-6 days of preparation, and a day or so of waiting, for a total of no more than a week to pinning. This is far superior to simply leaving it at 75 degrees and being forced to wait for up to two weeks and run the risk of overlay and contamination.

Why It?s Not Just a Theory:
While the first trial may have been due to chance, I?ve done the same thing intentionally with two other pans and gotten the same results. In addition, each pan has been colonized to a different degree than the others, but has still pinned.

Speculations on Mechanism:
As somewhat of a junior science expert, as it were, I think a good hypothesis for this phenomenon is as follows.

When the mycelial network is forming, it responds to drops in temperature, which in the natural environment, would signal the coming of cooler weather. However, I don?t the usual method of jerking the temperature down 10 degrees and leaving it there does the trick. Why?

Well, look at the situation from a biological standpoint: If you?re a fungus, you want to spread your mycelium as thoroughly as possible before pinning, so that you can sprout as many fruits, and thus spread as many spores, as possible. On the other hand, you don?t want to wait too long to produce fruits, or you?ll lose your chance. So you use a temperature drop as a signal to start pinning.

But here?s where things get tricky: Seasons can also change quickly, so a large temperature drop can also signify that it?s too late to pin. So it?s not in the best interest of the fungus to sprout fruits if they?re only going to die and the new spores aren?t going to take hold.

From the fungus? standpoint, the key to maximizing growth and survival is to ensure that growth conditions are favorable while simultaneously waiting for as long as possible, so that growth can be maximized.

So why doesn?t the traditional growth method ? that is, changing from 86 to 75 degrees and nothing else (except cold-shocking) ? work very efficiently? Because the mycelium thinks the temperatures are going to stay cold, so it holds off until it?s sure it?s safe to go ahead with pinning (e.g., 2 weeks later when nothing has changed).

So how do you get a mushroom to pin when you want it to? You give it confirmation of cooler temperatures, but also give it some warmth in the process, so that it knows the world hasn?t frozen over already. In other words, you create a trend from hot to cool, but in a cyclical pattern.

A temperature reduction from 86 degrees starts off the process by giving the mycelium a warning that cooler days are coming. But subsequently raising the temperature to 86, and then dropping it back to 75 again, gives confirmation that it?s still warm enough, and not too late to produce fruits. But it sends the signal that the window of opportunity for the fungus to proliferate itself is shrinking.

The end result? An immediate, ?panic? response, if you will, to send off spores as quickly as possible while it?s still got the chance.

Obviously, this is all theoretical, but the genetic code is amazingly complicated, and such a hypothesis is not unreasonable. In any case, the subject warrants further research.

Disclaimer:
All aforementioned experiments are imaginary and have never been performed by myself or anyone else, with the exception of the space alien Sorlag that came to my window last night. I have never seen or experienced a psychedelic mushroom of any species; nor do I even know the definition of ?mycology.?

Contact:
If you want to share experiences personally, give feedback (be it good or bad), etc., you can email me at:
cheatsman43@yahoo.com


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Offlinepheyelo
pheyelo
Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 82
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Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: Hannibal88]
    #1945238 - 09/23/03 06:49 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

that's a facinating point of veiw in this subject matter. I'm going to have to imagine myself giving it a try someday. thanks.


--------------------
Suspended in the darkness of
The cool and still Boulder Creek Night
I hear the song of the cricket
And locusts and frogs
And I wonder,
Is this the life of a Mushroom

-Barbara E. Hanson


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InvisibleSolarFlare
Lady Flare

Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 194
Loc: LaLa Land
Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: pheyelo]
    #1945244 - 09/23/03 06:51 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Delete one of your double posts fool!


--------------------
Im just a photographer for a foaf :wink:


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Invisibleund3rw0rld

Registered: 09/02/03
Posts: 50
Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: pheyelo]
    #1945256 - 09/23/03 06:53 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

very interesting...must have taken you a long time to type all that...good job


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Offlinefungulus
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Registered: 08/17/03
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Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: und3rw0rld]
    #1945311 - 09/23/03 07:13 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I had a thought about that since I just started doing bulk casings. I'm using 16.5 gallon rubbermaid caontainers in a modified neglect tech using incubators. My PC can hold 20 pints, so I figured PC 20 jars, make 2 casings. The problem: I need a million huge incubators! So I thought, "Why not use 1 for jars and 1 for casings and just switch around the 2 casings 1 in the inc. and 1 stacked on top every 12 hrs. It seems to me that this will give the shrooms temp stimulation similar to the temp drop at night. Simple and effective, but from what you say maybe it can make all the difference. I figure the temp will drop maybe 8-10 degrees F. I will post again with results since I am still doing casings the same way, but will have another incubator in a month or so. And anyone else who has done similar stuff, please post! I'm still quite the novice and would LOVE to hear what other people are doing, especially if I'm trying it. Peace, Pot, and SROOMZ!


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OfflineHannibal88
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Registered: 07/03/03
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Last seen: 18 years, 25 days
Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: fungulus]
    #1945315 - 09/23/03 07:15 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I'm trying this now with a pan that's already gone through a flush, to see if I can kick off the second flush extra fast. It seems pretty dormant right now, so I've got it back at 86F until tomorrow. We shall see.


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Invisiblegeorge castanzaM
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Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: Hannibal88]
    #1945321 - 09/23/03 07:16 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

what strain or strains are you using?


--------------------
KRAMER CAKES




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OfflineHannibal88
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Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: george castanza]
    #1945504 - 09/23/03 08:07 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

george castanza said:
what strain or strains are you using?




Z-Strain, Treasure Coast, and Ecuadorian at this point.


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OfflineTold
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Registered: 03/09/03
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Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: Hannibal88]
    #1945957 - 09/23/03 10:24 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

ha. i did this too. ecept i misted my cakes aswel...


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OfflineSJR
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Registered: 09/09/03
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Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: Told]
    #1945989 - 09/23/03 10:33 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Sound like a good theory you got going there.


--------------------
Jihad Is a Joke


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Offlineatomic1
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Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: SJR]
    #1946018 - 09/23/03 10:40 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

that is really a fascinating thought, think i'll give it a whirl right now, i've did almost the exact same thing with my casing so far by coincidence. wish me luck


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OfflineDemiurge
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Registered: 04/11/03
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Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: atomic1]
    #1946137 - 09/23/03 11:22 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I'd like to hear some expert opinion on this. I'm really interested in trying it when my friends casinigs are ready to fruit in a few days. My props to you Hannibal!


--------------------
Just another animal embeded in a technological coral reef extruded psychic objects...


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Anonymous

Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: Hannibal88]
    #1946642 - 09/24/03 02:30 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

have you tried going directly from the cold shock back to 86? this may speed things up even more


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: Hannibal88]
    #1947117 - 09/24/03 08:29 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Very interesting. I have thought that with temperature, you need it low enough to tell the mycelium its time to fruit, but lowering the temperature will slow cell division, thus slow growth.

Cycling the temp. seems to been an interesting way of getting the best of both worlds, hell, its what happens in the wild with night and day :smile:
 


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OfflineJaester
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Registered: 05/13/03
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Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: psilomonkey]
    #1947150 - 09/24/03 08:53 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I would say that that is an excellent hypothesis. Have anyone here tried getting a book on the subject and see if there is any info that supports that. I'm in my first try, too early to move my ass to that.

Jaester


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Offlinefloridaboi101
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Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: Jaester]
    #1947221 - 09/24/03 09:52 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Holy shit....Ive accidentally dont the same exact thing...without the cold shock...but the temp cycle definitely happens. It fluctuates between 86 and 76 where i incubate at. When I awoke to check on my KS casing this morning theres a fatty ass pin in it. Sadly I'm out of fruiting space so it looks like im gettin another today. Excellent discovery dude...i just figured since ive noticed that KS is a very aggressive strain that it was just ready a lil earlier than the others...ill definitely have to try this again.


--------------------
Got weed?


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OfflinePooPs
What's thisfor???

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Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: floridaboi101]
    #1947294 - 09/24/03 10:42 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

how's the pinset on that?

do you get a nice even pinset? or just a few random pins?

i think weight wise.. the 2 weeks might be worth the while if you get double the yield per flush!

if you do get a good pinset tho... cudos!


--------------------


-----------
Sniff, Sniff... What's that smell???... ohhhhh.!!
------------------


Pot Free for another : nevermind.. never made it..


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OfflineBatFly
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Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: PooPs]
    #1947455 - 09/24/03 12:11 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

wow, awsome theory! to make things simpler, think you could just put a fish tank heater in the chamber and raise and lower the temperature for cakes?

hmmmmmmmmmm, maybe i'll see if this works with cakes also. it's mycelium right?


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
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Registered: 08/08/03
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Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: BatFly]
    #1947469 - 09/24/03 12:19 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

BatFly said:
think you could just put a fish tank heater in the chamber and raise and lower the temperature for cakes?

hmmmmmmmmmm, maybe i'll see if this works with cakes also. it's mycelium right?




Thanks for the idea, I have a batch coming up soon, I have two terrariums so I will try that with my heater and a timer on one and see if it makes much of a difference. Of course that may be a bit much and it could make the shrooms 'bolt', producing long spindle shrooms with little weight, but I guess I will find out.

As for cakes, I don't see any reason why they should be any different, as you say its all mycelium.


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Offlineatomic1
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Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: psilomonkey]
    #1947651 - 09/24/03 01:29 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I just returned my casing, which also happens to be KS, to the terrarium. I'll keep you guys posted on the situation. This was the first trip to the fridge. It's been at 86, fridge,78(present)


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InvisibleCureKat
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Registered: 09/13/03
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Loc: Pacific NW
Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: atomic1]
    #1948911 - 09/24/03 07:37 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Very clean and logical post. I think this one is my favorite. It seems like this system would be harsher though (although less likely to get contaminated); does/would it negatively impact the number of flushes you can get out of the mycelium?


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OfflinePooPs
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Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: CureKat]
    #1950626 - 09/25/03 10:41 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

DUDE!

i still wana know what these flushed give out!!! good pinset or not?


--------------------


-----------
Sniff, Sniff... What's that smell???... ohhhhh.!!
------------------


Pot Free for another : nevermind.. never made it..


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OfflineHannibal88
Aryan Psychonaut
Registered: 07/03/03
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Loc: farfromvalhalla
Last seen: 18 years, 25 days
Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: CureKat]
    #1977008 - 10/03/03 06:20 PM (18 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

CureKat said:
Very clean and logical post. I think this one is my favorite. It seems like this system would be harsher though (although less likely to get contaminated); does/would it negatively impact the number of flushes you can get out of the mycelium?





Since I posted that, I've made some more observations. I've had more problems with contaminants than problems with pinning.

As a follow-up, I have had success with this system with about 10 pans. While the cycling hasn't always resulted in pinning one day later, the pinning *has* begun within three days.

I personally recommend buying the White Rabbit (www.triplehelixshroomery.com), so that you can control your temperature without removing pans. I'm planning on buying some of them soon, so I'll be posting more on this in a while.


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OfflineHannibal88
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Registered: 07/03/03
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Last seen: 18 years, 25 days
Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: PooPs]
    #1977022 - 10/03/03 06:23 PM (18 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

PooPs said:
how's the pinset on that?

do you get a nice even pinset? or just a few random pins?

i think weight wise.. the 2 weeks might be worth the while if you get double the yield per flush!

if you do get a good pinset tho... cudos!




Aside from a couple of contaminated pans, I generally get very good pinsets. My observation has been that the more mycelium there is on the surface, the more complete a flush you'll get. You obviously don't want overlay, but letting the pan sit at high temp for an extra day or so might help the mycelium grow in.

Basically, bottom line:
Everything pins at about the same time, but the size of the flush seems to depend on how well colonized the mycelium is. This makes sense, since it's the condensing of mycelium fibers that forms mushrooms, so the more mycelium, the more efficiently it's going to grow.


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Invisiblew. murderface
7/7/07


Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 36
Loc: mi
Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: atomic1]
    #7145665 - 07/08/07 11:24 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

im defiantley gonna try that, but i was waiting on my first ever grow and i got anxious plus i saw some blue in the mix which i now know as bruising in the myc. but anyways i just flushed it before it ever pinned for only a half hour under the faucet and in lonly two days i started to see pins and my dads are still not pinned so idk if what i did was good or not but it definatley seems like it was a good thing ill see for my second flush and how much i get outta it. this is fricken awsome. Cheesey Frickenbit im out


--------------------
Eat right stay fit DIE anyways.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH - FASTER PINNING VIA TEMPERATURE CYCLING [Re: Hannibal88]
    #7145679 - 07/08/07 11:29 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
Please don't bump four year old failed threads. Sometimes, cubes pin in spite of what we do, rather than because of it. Follow proper procedures and you'll have success. Cubes are NOT a cold weather species that benefit from temp cycling. They fruit in the wild in spring-summer-fall, therefore temp cycling is irrelevant. Provide the proper humidity and air exchange and they'll fruit, even if you colonize at temps in the 60's and fruit at temps in the 90's. That's a fact.
RR


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