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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: Grapefruit]
    #19414927 - 01/13/14 10:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
So only kids who have parents that want to pay for it should be able to get an education? Or the tax payer should pay for kids privately?





I know plenty of kids that didn't have money who worked in the school to get money.  Saying you don't have money is a sorry ass excuse.  I didn't have money when I went, I worked in a factory at night until 1am and then went to school at 7am.  Talk about a bitch of a time, but i did it.


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Offlinesytar
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19416643 - 01/14/14 10:09 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Libertarianism was originally a leftist ideology. Everywhere else in the world besides the United States, libertarianism is associated with the left. In the USA, when somebody says 'libertarian' they are typically referring to right-libertarians. Someone like Chomsky is a left-libertarian. Libertarians have one thing in common and that is that they are anti-authoritarian. However, I've also noticed a trend of what I'd call 'conservatarians' along the lines of Glenn Beck and Alex Jones. This is the ideological area where conspiracy theorists tend to breed. IMO, ZappaisGod and Starfire are more on the conservatarian side that strict, pure libertarians.

I think the defining factor which you can use to separate out libertarian imposters is by identifying some important motivational factors which conservatarians have and that real libertarians lack. Conservatarians are far more likely to use rhetoric about the government taking their money at the point of a gun than actual libertarians. While libertarians might believe this is true in some sense, this is not a rhetorical tactic that they'd resort to because they are not focused on the personal financial impact statism has on their finances. Conservatarians are also prone to complaining about welfare 'moochers', have derisive attitudes towards minimum wage workers, worrying about paying for 'lazy' people, and displaying hierarchical thinking about society.

Libertarians are concerned with meritocracy, for sure, but for the good of society as a whole. Real libertarians view their philosophy as deeply compassionate and see it as a vehicle for the prosperity of all people now and in the future, not just in their country but the world over. A sterling example of a REAL libertarian is Cato Fellow Roderick Long. John Brennan is also a fantastic example. Real libertarians are bleeding-hearts that are primarily concerned with the welfare of the least of us, not selfish assholes preoccupied with their personal oppression by the IRS.

For my part, I have a left-libertarian, individualist anarchist streak to me. I would be more than willing to live in a stateless society if it could work for the disadvantaged, protect the environment, and function as well as a society with a state. However, I must admit I'm not totally sure. It is an experiment I would like to try, but one that I would like to see gradually implemented. My personal philosophy at this point is closest to Kevin Carson. I'm a mututalist who doesn't believe in marginalism or the labor theory of value and would like to see market socialism, the abolition of all taxes except for a LVT, the FED destroyed, full-reserve banking, and a monetary authority which spends money into existence while yielding a stable inflation target. From there I would be willing to experiment with increasing degrees of statelessness, but I don't feel comfortable just plunging into it.


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I post from my phone. Excuse the typos and autocorrects.


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InvisibleEchro
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: sytar]
    #19416722 - 01/14/14 10:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Kinda like how Liberalism is still used elsewhere in the world to describe it's original sense, support of free markets.
I wasn't expecting Long or Carson to be name dropped here. I knew not to take this thread seriously when David Friedman is used as an example of libertarianism in one sentence & then anarchism is written off the next:rofl: Probably half of the literature has an anarchist slant. It's just the most publicly accessible facets of libertarianism in the U.S., the party, think tanks, magazines, etc are all trying to appeal to minarchists. It makes sense from a strategic standpoint, but the real interesting shit is in the anti-statist literature, political & economic theory, etc. This forum isn't too receptive to it though. PM me if you want to discuss this shit more in depth, I have questions about some of your positions.


--------------------
"People who take Life seriously are going to find it slipping through their fingers in a very maddening fashion." ~ Terence McKenna

"You still want to go on living on your knees. But I have understood life.
And anyone who understands life cannot live on his knees." ~ Renzo Novatore


Edited by Echro (01/14/14 10:35 AM)


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: sytar]
    #19420254 - 01/14/14 11:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sytar said:
Libertarianism was originally a leftist ideology. Everywhere else in the world besides the United States, libertarianism is associated with the left. In the USA, when somebody says 'libertarian' they are typically referring to right-libertarians. Someone like Chomsky is a left-libertarian. Libertarians have one thing in common and that is that they are anti-authoritarian. However, I've also noticed a trend of what I'd call 'conservatarians' along the lines of Glenn Beck and Alex Jones. This is the ideological area where conspiracy theorists tend to breed. IMO, ZappaisGod and Starfire are more on the conservatarian side that strict, pure libertarians.

I think the defining factor which you can use to separate out libertarian imposters is by identifying some important motivational factors which conservatarians have and that real libertarians lack. Conservatarians are far more likely to use rhetoric about the government taking their money at the point of a gun than actual libertarians. While libertarians might believe this is true in some sense, this is not a rhetorical tactic that they'd resort to because they are not focused on the personal financial impact statism has on their finances. Conservatarians are also prone to complaining about welfare 'moochers', have derisive attitudes towards minimum wage workers, worrying about paying for 'lazy' people, and displaying hierarchical thinking about society.

Libertarians are concerned with meritocracy, for sure, but for the good of society as a whole. Real libertarians view their philosophy as deeply compassionate and see it as a vehicle for the prosperity of all people now and in the future, not just in their country but the world over. A sterling example of a REAL libertarian is Cato Fellow Roderick Long. John Brennan is also a fantastic example. Real libertarians are bleeding-hearts that are primarily concerned with the welfare of the least of us, not selfish assholes preoccupied with their personal oppression by the IRS.

For my part, I have a left-libertarian, individualist anarchist streak to me. I would be more than willing to live in a stateless society if it could work for the disadvantaged, protect the environment, and function as well as a society with a state. However, I must admit I'm not totally sure. It is an experiment I would like to try, but one that I would like to see gradually implemented. My personal philosophy at this point is closest to Kevin Carson. I'm a mututalist who doesn't believe in marginalism or the labor theory of value and would like to see market socialism, the abolition of all taxes except for a LVT, the FED destroyed, full-reserve banking, and a monetary authority which spends money into existence while yielding a stable inflation target. From there I would be willing to experiment with increasing degrees of statelessness, but I don't feel comfortable just plunging into it.




NONSENSE.  Learn what a constitutional libertarian is, then you will correctly describe what I am. 

'Left Libertarians' as you put it might more aptly be described as 'progressive libertarians' 

There are people who are statists and for the government, and people who are Federalists and for THE PEOPLE. 

The main difference between a 'leftist libertarian' and a 'constitutional libertarian' is that a constitutional doesn't fall to his knees and suck the federal governments cock just because they are the federal government.

You are either for the People or for the government.  From what I've seen of the 'left libertarians' they are more than happy to squat when the government says shit.


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Offlinesytar
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19427121 - 01/16/14 09:56 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Libertarian conservatism is a conservative political philosophy & ideology that combine right-libertarian politics and conservative values.




Seems like the essence of what I called a 'conservatarian'. Isn't strictly what I'm talking about since I've seen libertarians of all stripes including AnCaps who clearly qualify as 'conservatarian' by my criteria.


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I post from my phone. Excuse the typos and autocorrects.


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InvisibleEchro
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: sytar]
    #19427380 - 01/16/14 10:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I don't even know how you reconcile libertarianism with conservatism. Classical liberal thought was a rejection of the authoritarian conservatism prevalent at that time. Conservatism's basic definition is; "belief in the value of established and traditional practices in politics and society." In practice it's an ideological stasis that empowers Statism. Libertarianism is about radical changes in a society's power structure, less centralization of power in a few hands & more spread out, decentralized power in the distributed hands of many. I don't see a lot of that currently in our society, so how are we conserving it? Unless we're talking about cultural conservatism, i.e. the principles this country was founded on, The Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, & The Constitution, but at that point you might as well identify as a Classical Liberal or just simply libertarian. Most "Conservatives" I know proclaim their love for the principles this country was founded on, while at the same time supporting nanny statist entitlement programs, jingoistic foreign policy, respect for established power, etc etc. Why lump yourself in with that?


--------------------
"People who take Life seriously are going to find it slipping through their fingers in a very maddening fashion." ~ Terence McKenna

"You still want to go on living on your knees. But I have understood life.
And anyone who understands life cannot live on his knees." ~ Renzo Novatore


Edited by Echro (01/16/14 12:50 PM)


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: Echro]
    #19429953 - 01/16/14 07:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Both the mainstream democrat and republican parties are big-government, big spending, in-your-face authoritarian statist systems that are the anti-thesis of libertarianism.

The differences are really superficial, they are just social things that define the ideologies of the parties. 

And the other difference is who they want to give your money too.  The government has become a corrupt, useless good-old boy network of crony capitalists who make laws for their favored industries and then use the little guys money to pay for it.

And that's why Im always saying Obama is such an ass and he has people in starry-eyed hypnotic trances because he is just another of the fucking tools that this country has placed in a leadership position in the last 60 years and he is looting the people and giving it to his buddies just like all the rest of them.

The difference is for some reason people don't see through his horseshit.

Libertarians are the party that wants to stop crony capitalism.  yet for some reason people seem to think libertarians want to make rules and regulations and give handouts to companies.  They don't.  they want companies and people to do or die by their own efforts.

One last thing to think about.  Why should banks and companies change their risky behavior that puts other peoples money at risk when they know Uncle is there to bail them out?


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Offlinelsdkiwi
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19435240 - 01/17/14 09:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Quote:

What do you think? Are you a Leftists Libertarian…




Contradiction in terms.




I absolutely hate when people say left libertarianism "can't exist".  This is often the ignorant opinion of a rightist feigning as a libertarian.

Being a leftist libertarian is NOT a contradiction of terms.  This is the closest to a political identity I have.  I am socially libertarian (plain and simple) but economically centrist.  I tend to be more libertarian towards smaller business (providing the consumer is not lied to), but more regulatory towards large corporations.

I endorse high taxes on big business profits and the "1%".  Big business creates jobs.  However, most large businesses give a disproportionate amount of money to those in power.  There is nothing wrong with taxing a successful man who does not give back or a corporation which greedily hordes profit or creates wealth using immoral tactics.  For example Tyson uses extremely questionable practices with their animals and the government should step in and regulate the greedy fucks.  However, unfortunately the government is in the pocket of these companies so this will never happen

I identify more with liberals than conservatives, but neither accurately describes my beliefs. I do not associate with any single political ideology, as I believe allegiance to any one way of thinking is the definition of narrow-mindedness.


--------------------
"lsdkiwi ignored every person that gave him advice that conflicted with what he wanted to hear.
He's the type of person who blames all his problems on others, and refuses to accept any sort of responsibility for things that take place in his life. This thread was a complete waste of time."

"They hate us 'cause they ain't us" - Kim Jong Un

One day we'll look back on these times and wonder how people could have been so discriminatory against pot smokers during the prohibition era.  This is a fight for the right to explore altered consciousness at will for both spiritual and recreational purposes.

:leaf: :leaf: :leaf:


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OfflineHorizon
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: rougescientist]
    #19435468 - 01/17/14 10:20 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I am basically a Libertarian, however I have doubts that it could work.


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Stanhope is right :drunk:


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: lsdkiwi]
    #19435520 - 01/17/14 10:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

lsdkiwi said:
Quote:

Quote:

What do you think? Are you a Leftists Libertarian…




Contradiction in terms.




I am socially libertarian (plain and simple) but economically centrist.  I tend to be more libertarian towards smaller business (providing the consumer is not lied to), but more regulatory towards large corporations.

I endorse high taxes on big business profits and the "1%".  Big business creates jobs.  However, most large businesses give a disproportionate amount of money to those in power.  There is nothing wrong with taxing a successful man who does not give back or a corporation which greedily hordes profit or creates wealth using immoral tactics. 





The fact that you are socially libertarian and economically not, and what you postd about taxing and greedy corporations, etc, shows that you have swallowed the marx-lenin class struggle bullshit hook, line and sinker.

And if you support a big expanding goverment, tax the greedy rich centralized government you are more apporpriately labeled a progressive.  Which is code for soft marxist. 

sorry, but you aren't any libertarian.  Not with those values you have.


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Offlinelsdkiwi
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19435592 - 01/17/14 10:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The fact that you are socially libertarian and economically not, and what you postd about taxing and greedy corporations, etc, shows that you have swallowed the marx-lenin class struggle bullshit hook, line and sinker.

And if you support a big expanding goverment, tax the greedy rich centralized government you are more apporpriately labeled a progressive.  Which is code for soft marxist.

sorry, but you aren't any libertarian.  Not with those values you have.




Oh dear lord, this is why I don't discuss politics with people.  Really I'm a marxist now smh...

I am pretty much a libertarian, if you had an open mind and a less aggressive political stance maybe you would see this.  Libertarianism is not defined by your beliefs.  Where the fuck did I say "tax the greedy rich centralized government".... wtf?  I do NOT support a "big expanding government".  Maybe you should stop putting words in my mouth and relying on pointless insults and actually form a constructive thought.

That being said: if you don't think greed is an issue in American corporations and the political system perhaps you need to open your eyes and enlighten yourself with a few documentaries.  I am an aspiring entrepreneur.  I am not against big business.  Not all rich people or heads of big business are greedy. It just needs some regulation.  I also believe in progressive tax, this is not a radical nor marxist idea.  Right now, we pretty much have a REGRESSIVE tax, due to the length and loopholes of the tax code, which is pretty much the dumbest thing ever (this is pretty much undeniable from an actual economic perspective).


--------------------
"lsdkiwi ignored every person that gave him advice that conflicted with what he wanted to hear.
He's the type of person who blames all his problems on others, and refuses to accept any sort of responsibility for things that take place in his life. This thread was a complete waste of time."

"They hate us 'cause they ain't us" - Kim Jong Un

One day we'll look back on these times and wonder how people could have been so discriminatory against pot smokers during the prohibition era.  This is a fight for the right to explore altered consciousness at will for both spiritual and recreational purposes.

:leaf: :leaf: :leaf:


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: lsdkiwi]
    #19435676 - 01/17/14 11:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Oh dear lord.  You can't read.  I said 'if' not that you were.  Maybe if you don't like the way corporations get away with shit you should blame the government.  they are the ones who write the rules.

And maybe if the government would stop spending so fucking much money we wouldn't need to tax the shit out of 'the wealthy'

Its the government that is greedy.  Case in point:  The government makes more revenue from Exxon's Oil and Gas/Refined products profits than Exxon does. 

Amd there are a lot of 'greedy businessmen' especially in the banking industry.  After the recent wall street fiasco's you would think someone would go to prison but what happened?

Obama gets elected and he makes a tax cheat, Timothy Geithner (who was a big Goldman sachs guy) the secretary of the treasury.

Now, don't jump on me for blaming Obama.  Goldman sachs people have been the core of the last 3 or 4 administrations, including Bush and Clinton.  But the 'I won't have lobbyists in my administration' Obama administration was riddled with Goldman shills.

Don't blame the skin that's rotting away from the cancer (the businesses) blame the cancer that's causing it (corrupt government)


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InvisibleEchro
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19435768 - 01/17/14 11:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The Big Corporations run the Regulatory State. They want more regulations, They can afford them. Little guys can't. This is simple economics here. There is no simpler way to cartelize the economy than to erect artificial barriers to entry that prevent poor & disempowered parties from competing on the open market.


--------------------
"People who take Life seriously are going to find it slipping through their fingers in a very maddening fashion." ~ Terence McKenna

"You still want to go on living on your knees. But I have understood life.
And anyone who understands life cannot live on his knees." ~ Renzo Novatore


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Offlinelsdkiwi
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19435773 - 01/18/14 12:00 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah...  I agree with you everything you just said starfire!

A couple things I would add:  Many companies, such as Exxon make large profits, but do not pay very many taxes at all (sometimes none, or even "negative" tax if they receive subsidies and bail outs that are usually not even needed).  If we simply taxed the profits of many of these large corporations at a reasonable amount, our debt would be significantly decreased.  However, we allow them them to get away with shady tax evasion strategies.  The immorality we see in the banking and food industries (as well as others) is a direct result of them essentially being allowed to get away with breaking the law.

And I did miss that crucial "if" in your comment.  My bad.


--------------------
"lsdkiwi ignored every person that gave him advice that conflicted with what he wanted to hear.
He's the type of person who blames all his problems on others, and refuses to accept any sort of responsibility for things that take place in his life. This thread was a complete waste of time."

"They hate us 'cause they ain't us" - Kim Jong Un

One day we'll look back on these times and wonder how people could have been so discriminatory against pot smokers during the prohibition era.  This is a fight for the right to explore altered consciousness at will for both spiritual and recreational purposes.

:leaf: :leaf: :leaf:


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: lsdkiwi]
    #19435796 - 01/18/14 12:08 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

lsdkiwi said:
Yeah...  I agree with you everything you just said starfire!

A couple things I would add:  Many companies, such as Exxon make large profits, but do not pay very many taxes at all (sometimes none, or even "negative" tax if they receive subsidies and bail outs that are usually not even needed).  If we simply taxed the profits of many of these large corporations at a reasonable amount, our debt would be significantly decreased.  However, we allow them them to get away with shady tax evasion strategies.  The immorality we see in the banking and food industries (as well as others) is a direct result of them essentially being allowed to get away with breaking the law.

And I did miss that crucial "if" in your comment.  My bad.





I have to disagree to a point.  The reason some companies appear to get 'tax breaks' is because they pay sometimes up to 85% of all net profit in taxes to foreign governments where they are getting oil. 

And think about a 'subsidy'  Lack of taxation is NOT a subsidy.  And profits for oil companies are a good thing.  And subsidies for drilling can be good.  Why?  Because quite often the subsidy is given so that when the oil company hits paydirt, they pay large royalties to the federal government, as well as taxes on the profit.  that is why the government tolerates it. 

The 'evil oil companies profits' argument is nonsense.  Take a look at one example--North Dakota.  Their goverment is flush with money from oil, and the people there are shitting in high cotton with low unemployment rates and low taxes

All because the oil companies are making money hand over fist in the Bakken.  It's a win-win for everyone.


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Offlinelsdkiwi
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Re: Lets talk about Libertarians [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19435855 - 01/18/14 12:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

If what you say is factually true (don't believe everything you read on the internet :wink:), then I definitely would agree.  I do understand subsidies, but admittedly, the oil industry is something I have never studied so I certainly don't want to claim I know a lot about it.  My comment was more general though, and applied to other industries (specifically the banking industry which I understand at a basic level).

I totally get what you mean by saying the "evil oil companies profits" argument is stupid, because it is.  I prefer to use.... logic (lol).

That isn't what I was trying to say, I hope you can see that I'm just trying to convey that corruption and greed near the top exists and is a problem.  I also believe that some at the top are good people.  I try to avoid generalizations.

See?  We are relatively like-minded and can get along!  My political opinions adapt as I get older and learn more.


--------------------
"lsdkiwi ignored every person that gave him advice that conflicted with what he wanted to hear.
He's the type of person who blames all his problems on others, and refuses to accept any sort of responsibility for things that take place in his life. This thread was a complete waste of time."

"They hate us 'cause they ain't us" - Kim Jong Un

One day we'll look back on these times and wonder how people could have been so discriminatory against pot smokers during the prohibition era.  This is a fight for the right to explore altered consciousness at will for both spiritual and recreational purposes.

:leaf: :leaf: :leaf:


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