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Offlinepsilynut
aka Patchraper

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 1,244
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
Re: Does the US Govenrment Need More Regulations? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19561715 - 02/13/14 01:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


This is nonsense the chinese workers are more than fairly compensated for there labor and american consumers get to pay for a cheaper good.


when it comes to tools I only buy American made shit, especially for work. Can't have cheap , poorly made Chinese horseshit breaking on me in the middle of the day. Cheaper sucks sometimes. It's not something I value.

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InvisibleGilgamesh18
Herbivore Man

Registered: 03/01/12
Posts: 11,671
Re: Does the US Govenrment Need More Regulations? [Re: psilynut]
    #19561729 - 02/13/14 01:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psilynut said:
Quote:


This is nonsense the chinese workers are more than fairly compensated for there labor and american consumers get to pay for a cheaper good.


when it comes to tools I only buy American made shit, especially for work. Can't have cheap , poorly made Chinese horseshit breaking on me in the middle of the day. Cheaper sucks sometimes. It's not something I value.



Thats fine I am not trying to say the Chinese make a better product just that they are not exploited wage slaves and other nonsensical hyperbole about how free markets actually function.


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Offlinesytar
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Registered: 09/01/13
Posts: 381
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Does the US Govenrment Need More Regulations? [Re: Enlil]
    #19561808 - 02/13/14 02:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Your positions aren't very clearly expressed but I suppose I could clarify as well. Wen I say you are "okay" with something I mean you are not in favor of using the legal and political system to combat it.

Anyway, you're basically saying you wouldn't be advocating against slavery if we were back in the 1700s. You know, cause that's what the majority wants.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Does the US Govenrment Need More Regulations? [Re: psilynut]
    #19561840 - 02/13/14 02:27 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psilynut said:
Quote:


This is nonsense the chinese workers are more than fairly compensated for there labor and american consumers get to pay for a cheaper good.


when it comes to tools I only buy American made shit, especially for work. Can't have cheap , poorly made Chinese horseshit breaking on me in the middle of the day. Cheaper sucks sometimes. It's not something I value.




German tools are excellent as well.

There seems to be a massive presumption that low wages mean slavery by some of the more ignorant posters.  If the weren't cheap they wouldn't be employed at all.  Do not forget that beyond the desire for consumers, many of whom work low paying jobs themselves, there are also massive transportation costs involved in manufacturing off shore.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Does the US Govenrment Need More Regulations? [Re: sytar]
    #19561846 - 02/13/14 02:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Feel free to continue putting words in my mouth.  It's your primary rhetorical tool, after all.

For the more rational readers, however, I'll state my position as clearly as I can:

It is NOT the place of the United States to set or change china's policy...whether by military force or market pressure.  Each individual is free to choose whether he/she wants to support what China is doing.  If I had my druthers, that choice would remain one that each individual can make for himself/herself based on his/her priorities. 

If, however, the public wanted a law prohibiting people from supporting certain behaviors, then of course that law should pass despite the fact that I would not be in favor of that law.

As far as the 1700's that's a different situation altogether.  This nation was founded in reaction to social injustice.  Each of us, as citizens, have a duty to keep this nation as free from social injustice as possible.  Slavery had to be abolished here because it is antithetical to the goals and purpose of this nation.

If social injustice exists in china, the Chinese have a duty to deal with that in whatever way they deem necessary.


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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
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Re: Does the US Govenrment Need More Regulations? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #19561864 - 02/13/14 02:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
This is a question of what laws should and should not be on the books.  Here is my basic answer to that question:  Laws that have the support of the people should be on the books.  Laws that do not, shouldn't be.

The specific question in this discussion is whether the people in the U.S. (as determined by the majority of adults) support limiting trade in a way that increases the cost of consumer goods.  I believe that the public does not support such a limitation on trade at this time.  As a result, there should be no law limiting trade in that fashion.

I don't see why this is so hard for you to understand.




"I believe that the public does not support such a limitation on trade at this time"

Really, and when was the last time trade deals were a political debate or discussion?  20-25 years ago?


The public has NOTHING to do with globalization or trade deals, the corporate interests and lobbyists make the deals that they profit from, Joe Six-Pack is not involved with this process.

Do you think the public approved of losing tens of millions of jobs to cheap labor in other countries?  How has that worked out?  The economy has been structurally damaged the past 20 years and most of the "public" has no clue why it has happened.

So if you think the "public" has anything to do with cheap goods coming into the US, or jobs leaving to foreign nations, I would say you are incorrect.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Does the US Govenrment Need More Regulations? [Re: qman]
    #19561879 - 02/13/14 02:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not sure what you're arguing.  It appears that you're either saying that the public has no control over policy decisions or that the public is too dumb to know what they want.

I disagree with both generally, but the latter is at least a defensible argument.  In either case, I have to ask...What is the remedy?


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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: Does the US Govenrment Need More Regulations? [Re: Enlil]
    #19561914 - 02/13/14 02:43 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I'm not sure what you're arguing.  It appears that you're either saying that the public has no control over policy decisions or that the public is too dumb to know what they want.

I disagree with both generally, but the latter is at least a defensible argument.




The public has no control over trade policy, that's been quite obvious the past twenty years.

"the public is too dumb to know what they want"

The political parties simply refuse to the discuss the issue, it's a subject matter they would rather sweep under the rug, keep the public in the dark.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Does the US Govenrment Need More Regulations? [Re: qman]
    #19561916 - 02/13/14 02:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

So again I ask:  What is the remedy?


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OfflineAnarchoV
Revolutionary
Male


Registered: 09/01/13
Posts: 225
Loc: Missouri
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: Does the US Govenrment Need More Regulations? [Re: Enlil]
    #19562049 - 02/13/14 03:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)


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OfflineAnarchoV
Revolutionary
Male


Registered: 09/01/13
Posts: 225
Loc: Missouri
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: Does the US Govenrment Need More Regulations? [Re: AnarchoV]
    #19562057 - 02/13/14 03:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

This is the essay that Gary Chartier referred to-
http://c4ss.org/content/13751

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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: Does the US Govenrment Need More Regulations? [Re: AnarchoV]
    #19562299 - 02/13/14 04:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

AnarchoV said:


http://radgeek.com/gt/2011/10/Markets-Not-Capitalism-2011-Chartier-and-Johnson.pdf



that was great. Thank you for that


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Offlinesytar
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Registered: 09/01/13
Posts: 381
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Does the US Govenrment Need More Regulations? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19562438 - 02/13/14 05:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Wait, wait what is wrong with using market pressure on China?

Enlil, you seem to either have great difficulty in clearly stating your position or are simply not consistent. Is your position that you are simply in favor of whatever the majority of people want? Or are you just pointlessly reiterating that you support the general concept of Dempcracy? If it is the latter it seems to merely be a tool you are using to obscure your actual position and more importantly your reasoning for holding it. If your position is the former then your rebuttal against the "you'd not speak out against slavery" accusation appears simply inconsistent.


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I post from my phone. Excuse the typos and autocorrects.

Edited by sytar (02/13/14 05:11 PM)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Does the US Govenrment Need More Regulations? [Re: sytar]
    #19562483 - 02/13/14 05:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Nothing is "wrong" or "right with it.  It's not the place of the U.S. to use market pressure to encourage social change in China.  What part of that is hard to understand?


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
Free sVs!
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Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
Re: Does the US Govenrment Need More Regulations? [Re: sytar]
    #19562550 - 02/13/14 05:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sytar said:
Wait, wait what is wrong with using market pressure on China?

Enlil, you seem to either have great difficulty in clearly stating your position or are simply not consistent. Is your position that you are simply in favor of whatever the majority of people want? Or are you just pointlessly reiterating that you support the general concept of Dempcracy? If it is the latter it seems to merely be a tool you are using to obscure your actual position and more importantly your reasoning for holding it. If your position is the former then your rebuttal against the "you'd not speak out against slavery" accusation appears simply inconsistent.




He doesn't speak out against slavery. He is unconcerned by it. I think he's made that abundantly clear throughout the thread.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Does the US Govenrment Need More Regulations? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #19562583 - 02/13/14 05:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Frankly, it's become apparent that neither you nor sytar has the first clue what my position is.  Whether that's a failure in my communication or a lack of education or effort on your part, the end result is the same.  I feel like I'm trying to explain an internal combustion engine to a couple of five year olds.

I'm not sure it's worth continuing.  Even if we got past the communication issues, I don't see much point in the discussion.  Besides, it's pretty childish the way you keep putting words in my mouth.


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Offlinesytar
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Re: Does the US Govenrment Need More Regulations? [Re: Enlil]
    #19562659 - 02/13/14 05:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You don't make your points clearly and seem to intentionally confuse the issue with irrelevant nonsense. If you are incoherent and inarticulate it doesn't matter if you're talking to a five year old or a Harvard professor. Seeing as I actually teach college students I have a feeling it isn't a lack of education on my part. I still have no idea what your position might be. I've tried to faithfully represent your position as best I could.


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I post from my phone. Excuse the typos and autocorrects.

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
Free sVs!
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Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
Re: Does the US Govenrment Need More Regulations? [Re: Enlil]
    #19562665 - 02/13/14 06:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I do think I understand your position, I just don't see how it isn't moral relativism. You don't like slavery, but since there isn't currently a majority of Americans who want greater taxation on goods manufactured in abusive labor environments, you don't think it "should" be done. Am I clear on that?

I'm not advocating the bypassing of the legal system based upon my interpretation of morality, and I do not live under the delusion that this forum is a legislative body. I just think that not enough people are bothered by the current situation, so I bother people about it. :shrug:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Sophistic Radiance (02/13/14 06:05 PM)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Does the US Govenrment Need More Regulations? [Re: sytar]
    #19562669 - 02/13/14 06:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I taught classes at a university before I had a BA.  I don't think your tutoring is much of an indication of educational level


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Offlinesytar
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Re: Does the US Govenrment Need More Regulations? [Re: Enlil]
    #19562701 - 02/13/14 06:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Not going to argue my education with you. Don't try to blame your inability to communicate on everyone around you simply not being intelligent enough to understand. Frankly, doing so is childish. You don't impress me in anything but your arrogance.


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I post from my phone. Excuse the typos and autocorrects.

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