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 daussaulit
Forgetful
Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 2,894
Loc: Earth
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 Immigrants hurting the economy? 
#1936192 - 09/20/03 06:36 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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I've always wondered this, in the US I can guess there are thousands people that are working in this country, some legally and some not legally, and this money they make they send back to their home country to help their family or what not and its never spent here, in the US, where we need it. Does this hurt the economy?
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 shakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 16 days
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Re: Immigrants hurting the economy? [Re: daussaulit]
#1936197 - 09/20/03 06:38 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes, yes it does. The thing that really hurts it is the fact that they on average take 5 times as much from the system as the put in.
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barfightlard
tales of theinexpressible
Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 8,670
Loc: Canoodia
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
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Re: Immigrants hurting the economy? [Re: shakta]
#1936369 - 09/20/03 08:23 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
shakta said:
Yes, yes it does. The thing that really hurts it is the fact that they on average take 5 times as much from the system as the put in.
Oh and where did you get this number from? I think it came out of your ass, unless you can provide a link.
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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks
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shakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 16 days
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Re: Immigrants hurting the economy? [Re: barfightlard]
#1936440 - 09/20/03 09:14 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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I heard it on the radio the other day. The show was discussing this very subject. I don't care if you believe it or not to be honest. This link does illustrate the impact to the economy and also the impact on each of us pretty well.
http://www.fairus.org/html/04144710.htm
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: Immigrants hurting the economy? [Re: daussaulit]
#1936568 - 09/20/03 10:21 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Dont even get me started on this one.
I'll let Jim Hightower address the part that directly fucks up my personal life and made me have to move from a state I love, away from friends I adore and family that is obviously irreplacable. Close the fucking corporate borders.
http://www.jimhightower.com/air/read.asp?id=11192
And for once, I agree with shakta.
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land
Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
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Re: Immigrants hurting the economy? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1941008 - 09/22/03 02:07 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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The question that you have asked is not as well defined as it appears. To answer this question, you must first determine how much wealth a person deserves for a certain amount of work. I don't know that there is a concrete answer to this question.
I am therefore not going to say that we americans are taking more than we deserve (because who knows how much someone deserves. This is a philosophical question). What I am going to say is that we are taking more than we deserve when COMPARED to most other countries in the world.
I realise that we have invented technology and whatnot to help us and there's nothing wrong with that. But many people on the other side of the globe work way, way harder than the averagem american and they get payed peanuts.
Shatka your probably right about that stat. But that argument is still full of shit because the US is more than 5 times richer per capita than any third world country, and we're just lucky to be born here.
I can't remember the actual numbers, but I think that about 20% of the world's population uses 80% of the resources. People that are born in first world countries often want to find ways to prove that they are intitled to use this many resourcees. But imagine if you were were born in a third world country. You would feel entitled to some of the wealth.
So yes, immigrants are probably taking more than they put in. People always like to bash the poor folks for taking too much out of the economy. But what about Bill Gates? Or the CEO of Nike? They take way, way, way more than they deserve for the amount of work that they do.
I realise that immigrants often do not have proper education but some do and many of them are working in parking lots or driving taxis because their english is not all that refined. Well, all the more reason to let them into our schools. The immigrant thing is often a form of subtle racism. Not always, but often. Think about these things and think about the bigger picture when discussing immigrants.
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"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land
Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
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Re: Immigrants hurting the economy? [Re: clam_dude]
#1941041 - 09/22/03 02:12 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Psilo, I understand your position. I don't think that a company should be able to replace its workers with cheap labor provided by immigrants. Instead of not allowing immigrants into the coutry, however, we should just treat them fairly and pay them the same as ourselves. There should be laws so that companies cannot do this. But also, if there are skilled immigrants, we should give them good jobs.
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"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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shakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 16 days
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Re: Immigrants hurting the economy? [Re: clam_dude]
#1941145 - 09/22/03 02:42 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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I should have clarified. We should be talking specifically about illegal immigrants here. This country is as great and successful as it is because of immigrants. My number of 5 to 1 was supposed to be for illegal immigrants. They are most definately a drain on the economy, especially border states. Legal immigrants deserve every opportunity and type of assistance that is afforded to citizens. Illegals do not. While I know many of you have no use for laws, our immigration laws exist for a reason. Someone that ignores them has no right to be given the goose just because they managed to get here. I feel sorry for them, just like everyone else does, but this country cannot take on every single downtrodden person in the world. I understand why they want to come here as well, but again that does not mean we can afford to feed, house, and take care of them.
I think the following things should be done to take care of the problem.
1. Close the fucking borders!
2. Once the borders are under control, create a registration process and grant amnesty to all that are here. Give them green cards or whatever so they can legally work and contribute like everyone else.
3. Have a six month grace period for registrations. Anyone that comes up as a criminal gets kicked out.
4. After the grace period is over, any illegals that are caught get 10 years in prison. Make them work to pay for their incarceration. Street works, and other public service type jobs. After they are done serving their time, they get kicked out permanently. I know this sounds cold and harsh. Think about this though. They had six months to register. So they either managed to get here after the grace period, or they are criminals trying to avoid deportation. If we make it a criminal offense that has a severe consequence to enter our country illegally, people will think twice before they do. As it is now, they are basically rewarded for making it.
Solving the illegal migrant crisis in this country would have numerous positive effects. The various social service systems would not be getting bankrupted from individuals who have paid nothing in. Border security itself has a multitude of benefits. Immigrants will not be allowed to be taken advantage of by employers as they are now. Human smugglers and other lowlifes will not be able to harm them, or blackmail them any longer either. Legal immigration could be stepped up to allow more immigrants, because we would not have illegals flooding across our borders on a daily basis.
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land
Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
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Re: Immigrants hurting the economy? [Re: shakta]
#1941232 - 09/22/03 03:05 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Putting illegal immigrants in prison for ten years would be a huge drain on society. Do you know how much it costs to keep someone in prison? Neither do I but its damn lot of dough. I agree that illegal immigrants are often a drain on society, but perhaps the US should change the laws that determine who is an illegal immigrant.
I am from Canada and the immigration laws are way more relaxed. We let more immigrants in than the US, despite the fact that we are 10 times smaller. The economy in Ontario is great and as a result the city of Toronto is one of, if not the most, multicultural city in the world. There are many international music festivals and whatnot (all over Canada.) What I am saying is that the economy is only one aspect of the bigger picture.
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"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land
Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
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Re: Immigrants hurting the economy? [Re: clam_dude]
#1941238 - 09/22/03 03:07 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Also, Canada has really good foriegn relations. It is more respected internationally than the US and is more respectful of other cultures. This is of course a generalisation.
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"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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shakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 16 days
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Re: Immigrants hurting the economy? [Re: clam_dude]
#1941264 - 09/22/03 03:15 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Of course it is a complete generalization. I don't want to get into a Canada/US argument with you. Your immigration laws have actually become quite ridiculous. For example, I could come to Canada, and claim that I am a refugee from America, and sponge off of your system. The problem here is that we don't enforce the laws we already have on the books.
As for prison costs for the illegals that don't register goes, I have a solution. Again, you make them work for their housing. Street works, and other public services. You keep them in tent cities instead of these expensive prisons with cable TV. Remember the only way you end up in this situation is if you fail to register or manage to get in after these actions are taken. I think it would be a pretty strong deterrent personally. I am not against immigration, I just want it done legally.
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land
Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
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Re: Immigrants hurting the economy? [Re: shakta]
#1941320 - 09/22/03 03:28 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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I too think it should be done legally, but the laws should be more relaxed. And no, keeping illegal aliens in tent cities would not be a deterent because many of them are already living in tent cities. all they want to do is escape.
I don't really see how immigrants "spong" off of the system more than, say, a high school dropout. Any work that they do, someone has hired them to do it. It's not like they are stealing.
Like I said, immigrants may sponge off of the system a bit, but if you think you are being cheated, don't take it out on people less fortunate who are also just trying to get by. Like I said, the problem is the people on the top like Bill Gates or the CEO of Nike. Look how much money they pocket for the work they do.
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"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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shakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 16 days
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Re: Immigrants hurting the economy? [Re: clam_dude]
#1941356 - 09/22/03 03:38 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
clam_dude said:
I too think it should be done legally, but the laws should be more relaxed. And no, keeping illegal aliens in tent cities would not be a deterent because many of them are already living in tent cities. all they want to do is escape.
Why should America have to take in every person that wants to come here. Try that shit in France and see how far it gets you. If they still come here or don't register then we get real cheap labor to build that new highway we need. Once they get caught, their chances of living in this country go out the window. I think it would be a strong deterrent.
Quote:
I don't really see how immigrants "spong" off of the system more than, say, a high school dropout. Any work that they do, someone has hired them to do it. It's not like they are stealing.
The difference is the high school dropout is a citizen, not a criminal immigrant. The whole point is they are here ILLEGALLY! You as a Canadian citizen don't have to worry about paying for these people. How about we ship them all to you?
Quote:
Like I said, immigrants may sponge off of the system a bit, but if you think you are being cheated, don't take it out on people less fortunate who are also just trying to get by. Like I said, the problem is the people on the top like Bill Gates or the CEO of Nike. Look how much money they pocket for the work they do.
WTF are you talking about? Why would I take it out on the people that put more into the system and take less than anyone else? You think it is easy becoming the CEO of a major corporation? Why do you see rich people as the enemy? Again, I have no problem with legal immigration. This argument makes no sense whatsoever.
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monoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)
Registered: 09/06/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
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Re: Immigrants hurting the economy? [Re: clam_dude]
#1941365 - 09/22/03 03:39 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm not trying to stereotype,and I know that most of the "righties" on this board probably aren't anything like this,but in my experience the people that I've seen bitch the most about immigration taking there jobs and whatnot were drunk ass,barely literate,rednecks and racist yuppies.
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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams
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shakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 16 days
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Re: Immigrants hurting the economy? [Re: monoamine]
#1941371 - 09/22/03 03:40 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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I have a professional job, so there goes that one. If you are content to give away your money to these people that is your problem. Come to Texas sometime buddy.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Immigrants hurting the economy? [Re: daussaulit]
#1941480 - 09/22/03 04:14 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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I've always wondered this, in the US I can guess there are thousands people(immigrants) that are working in this country, some legally and some not legally
Millions actually.
and this money they make they send back to their home country to help their family or what not and its never spent here, in the US, where we need it. Does this hurt the economy?
When immigrants send most of their money home, they do hurt our
economy some, but not terribly much. I am more concerned about
illegal immigrants coming to country and mooching off of our public
services. Often they come here and get fake identification
papers and apply for welfare and send their kids to our schools,
all the while paying no taxes.
Granted, there are some positive things about illegal immigrants...
they do all the shit work that we don't feel like doing. But, I
feel that any country should be allowed to regulate who crosses
their borders. And, if a country doesn't want you there...then you
shouldn't be there.
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monoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)
Registered: 09/06/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
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Re: Immigrants hurting the economy? [Re: shakta]
#1941494 - 09/22/03 04:18 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Read it again buddy. I wasn't directing it at anyone on this board-don't be so full of yourself.
And I live in Florida.Gee,I must have imagined all those immigrants.
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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Immigrants hurting the economy? [Re: monoamine]
#1941523 - 09/22/03 04:26 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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but in my experience the people that I've seen bitch the most about
immigration taking there jobs and whatnot were drunk ass,barely
literate,rednecks and racist yuppies.
I believe that the government of a country has a right to determine
who or who doesn't get into its borders. Excessive and uncontrolled
immigration can hurt a country in many ways. It can cause
overpopulation and all of the problems that are associated with
that. A lot of illegal immigrants are "undesirables"(drug
smugglers, people running from the law in their own country, etc..).
Unchecked immigration means that anybody can come to our country and
cause problems. If that attitude makes me a redneck...then I guess
I am a redneck.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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 Re: Immigrants hurting the economy? [Re: daussaulit]
#1941540 - 09/22/03 04:32 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think everyone except the Native Americans should be expelled from the country. Damn immigrants! 
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land
Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
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Re: Immigrants hurting the economy? [Re: silversoul7]
#1942014 - 09/22/03 06:40 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Shatka, you seem to be obsessed about the "illegal" thing. Well, I assume that you smoke weed or do mushrooms on the rare ocasion, seeing that you are in fact on the shroomery. Maybe you should stop smoking weed because it is illegal.
And how the hell can you say that CEO of Nike takes less out of the system than anyone else? I understand that his fucked up little corporation creates jobs. And I understand that he proably had to work his ass off to get to where he is today. But people in the third world are also working their asses off for pennies. You cannot honestly tell me that the CEO of nike works harder than these people.
I don't see rich people as the enemy. I don't believe there is really an "enemy." We're all just trying to get by. Many people, however, do have a compultion to create an enemy. And these enemies often end up being poor people, immigrants, or people of other races who are potential terrorists (don't get me started on that one).
What I am saying is that if you are really worried someone trying to cheat you out of your money and the things that you work for, than take a hard look at some of the people who on the top. I know that they are hard workers, but do they deserve THAT much money.
Someone in the third world may work just as hard, they just started with less.
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"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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