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OfflineGoldenEye
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Re: Very young trichocereus peruvians [Re: KBG1977]
    #19412622 - 01/13/14 02:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

And cheap I suppose :smile:


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Re: Very young trichocereus peruvians [Re: GoldenEye]
    #19412636 - 01/13/14 02:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GoldenEye said:
And cheap I suppose :smile:




Depending on where you acquire them,yep:thumbup:


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Offlineintelligentlife
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Re: Very young trichocereus peruvians [Re: KBG1977]
    #19415328 - 01/14/14 12:28 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

By growing from seed you can have new plants, new forms, maybe mutants!

With cuttings you have same form plant, however, if you want to clone strong mescaline content cutting it's good way.

If you want to grow plants with new appearance and maybe varying mescaline contents, just grow from seed. Trichs are relatively big plants in 3 years. First year are quite "slow" but after that, trich starts to double their size in proper growing conditions.. If plants are big they can grow in one season 30-40cm relatively fast but you really need plant in strong light and it should be big shape to achieve that 30-40cm/season growth rate..

I don't see trichs are so slow to grow, if you have humid environment and moist soil just increase temperature at day time to make your plant endure over the humidity and moisture. Trichs do in moist and humid over one year it you want to keep them in humid chamber. I suggest to adjust plants to dry air more earlier and at age of 12months they should be capable to take some sun etc, filtered at first...


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Re: Very young trichocereus peruvians [Re: Rauhfasertapete]
    #19415867 - 01/14/14 05:02 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rauhfasertapete said:
trichocereus are very easy to graft on pereskiopsis when they are about 3 to 4mm in diameter. I would recommend to try that in spring, then they will grow about 3 times as fast as the selfrooted seedlings during summer. its easy.




Does this mean that if I manage to get that peireskiopsis somewhere, I can grow trichocereus to maturiry in 1 year, instead in 3 regularly?


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Re: Very young trichocereus peruvians [Re: luther7hrol]
    #19415921 - 01/14/14 05:25 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

3 years for a mature trich? That seems optimistic !


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OfflineLSoares
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Re: Very young trichocereus peruvians [Re: Mostly_Harmless]
    #19415928 - 01/14/14 05:27 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

:whathesaid:


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OfflineRauhfasertapete
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Re: Very young trichocereus peruvians [Re: luther7hrol]
    #19415957 - 01/14/14 05:44 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

hm, my selfrooted pachanoi were not mature at all after 3 years, and i doubt that with pereskiopsis this would be possible within one year, but it goes much quicker.

The thing is: Pereskipsis is not a desert plant at all, it likes more humid environments, and has roots that are well adapted to that. so you graft a cactus from a semid-arid climate onto a rootstock that delivers water and nutrients in abundance, which forces the graft into some excessive growth for some time (until the Trichocereus becomes so big and heavy that the small Pereskiopsis can not easily carry it anymore). however, this speeds up the rather slow early developmet of the seedling, but the grafts often do not have a normal and healthy development. So the best thing would be to cut them off from the pereskiopsis as soon as the advantage of accelerated growth decreases (or as soon as winter starts; Pereskiopsis are a bit tricky sometimes during winter). So the cutting can grow its own roots after that accelerated growth period, which is also healthier for it on long term (at least for tricocereus; some other slow growing desert cacti (like for example lophophora) may be grafted onto trichocereus as a long term rootstock after being cut off from pereskiopsis, because then they still grow faster than on their own roots, but have a more resistant rootstock than pereskiopsis or their own turnip would be).

However, i don´t know in what way the alkaloid levels of the plants are influenced by grafting. they usually get some different phenotype from it.


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InvisibleMostly_HarmlessM
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Re: Very young trichocereus peruvians [Re: Rauhfasertapete]
    #19415986 - 01/14/14 05:58 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rauhfasertapete said:
However, i don´t know in what way the alkaloid levels of the plants are influenced by grafting. they usually get some different phenotype from it.




There was some info on here somewhere that alkaloid levels aren't affected by grafting/stock choice.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17047609


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Offlineintelligentlife
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Re: Very young trichocereus peruvians [Re: Mostly_Harmless]
    #19416742 - 01/14/14 10:35 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)


I said "relatively big in 3 years" What means it's beginning to start to grow faster every year or so. Didn't mean from seed plant is mature in 3years.

First years they're most slowly what comes to growth rate anyway.

It's hard to say, do you or do you not keep dormancy for plants etc..

I have few 3years old trichs, only 1,5inch long.


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Edited by intelligentlife (01/14/14 10:36 AM)


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Re: Very young trichocereus peruvians [Re: intelligentlife]
    #19421166 - 01/15/14 03:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Few people told me that the Peruvian Torch can be ready for consumption after some 3 years, and then you only cut a part of it and keep the base so it can continue growing even after cutting the top, that's what I meant by maturation


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Re: Very young trichocereus peruvians [Re: luther7hrol]
    #19421237 - 01/15/14 04:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The amount of flesh after just 3 years growth won't be a substantial amount.
You could potentially push one to maybe a foot tall in 3 or 4 growing seasons, but they won't be very thick.
You would need multiple seedlings to harvest enough flesh.

These have seen 4 summers:



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OfflineRauhfasertapete
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Re: Very young trichocereus peruvians [Re: luther7hrol]
    #19421610 - 01/15/14 07:16 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

It may make sense to propagate them vegetatively for a few years, as the ones that grow on the same roots since they have germinated tend to be quite thin, only the tip gets fatter and fatter. When I sometimes cut one apart, I usually repotted the uppermost part with the biggest diameter, so that the column that grows from this one will grow thicker too.


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Offlineintelligentlife
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Re: Very young trichocereus peruvians [Re: Rauhfasertapete]
    #19422379 - 01/15/14 11:21 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Touché

You can get fast slim plants. For example at windowsill 12inch plant is relatively easy to achieve under 2 years.

However, if you want them to be fat and grow nice amount of mass, water at summer, keep dormant at winter and don't water them at winter time. I can say, after you achieve plants to size of 12-15inch(3-5years) you can easily have fast and fat growth every season.

Simple rule would be to say are just basic: Trichocereus should usually double it's mass over one growing season, in another words double their "size" in one year.

I have seen fast grown plants what basically starts to have "adult top" at 3-5years but they're not ready for harvesting the flesh.

More slim plant you have, more length you need to harvest. But I know from experience, no matter do you have slim or fat section they have relatively same amount of mescaline.. Assuming you have same clones another grown in full sun, another in shady windowsill.

I have yet not find out mescaline amount goes lower if plant is slim but you can't measure the dosage with slim trichocereus.. 12inch of slim plant can be only worth of 4-6inch think fat cactus.

Ofc if you're going to dry the flesh of cacti, there is no matter is the flesh originally from slim or fat section of plant. Assuming core is removed.

I have one example about this: I know one plant how strong it is as dried flesh from fat section. Also I have seen slim section dried and consumed similar amount and there are no difference in mescaline content. Maybe some but relatively small to be even noticed. But slim sections was from same clone, not grown from seed.

If you're growing some trichs for consumption, I would really wait them to get mass and test out potency, also you should keep some record what plant you have tested and how much..

Most reliable way to measure dosage(by dry weight) is just wait few days and dry the cactus flesh before you brew it.


--------------------


Edited by intelligentlife (01/15/14 11:33 AM)


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OfflineRauhfasertapete
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Re: Very young trichocereus peruvians [Re: intelligentlife]
    #19422414 - 01/15/14 11:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

intelligentlife said:
I have yet not find out mescaline amount goes lower if plant is slim but you can't measure the dosage with slim trichocereus.. 12inch of slim plant can be only worth of 4-6inch think fat cactus.

Ofc if you're going to dry the flesh of cacti, there is no matter is the flesh originally from slim or fat section of plant. Assuming core is removed.

I have one example about this: I know one plant how strong it is as dried flesh from fat section. Also I have seen slim section dried and consumed similar amount and there are no difference in mescaline content. Maybe some but relatively small to be even noticed.




I always assumed that slim cacti contain more alkaloids per dry matter than fat ones because the alkaloids mainly sit in or directly under the bark, not so much in the inner flesh. Slim columns have a bigger suface in relation to their volume than fat ones. Whereas the advantage off the fat ones is that they have a bigger surface exposed to the sun, which makes them grow faster and thus produce higher total amounts of alkaloids (resulting from higher total amounts of assimilated matter).

Am I right or is that conideration practically irrelevant?


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Offlineintelligentlife
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Re: Very young trichocereus peruvians [Re: Rauhfasertapete]
    #19426303 - 01/16/14 05:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

For instance:

-You have 30grams of dry flesh without core from fat cactus. No white flesh or skin removed.
-You have same amount(30g) of dry flesh from skinny plants only with core removed
-These are clones from each others.

-It's highly unlikely this amount of dried flesh without core vary so much you can even notice it when ingesting the flesh or making a beverage from it.


There is material, dried, only core removed.. "white flesh" will disappear. I don't say are these from fat or slim or are there mixed dried tissue from fat and slim plants. Only I say there is same clone dried tissue. I can say only this have been done but removing the core, not anything else.. Potency from slim to fat when tissue is dried there are equal potent tissue no matter is it from slim or fat plant. I have not find out dried tissue are more potent from slim section assuming clone is same.

I don't anymore do beverage or tripping but that's a picture from material I have used to make beverage, it's more easier and cooking is faster with two grocery store acid you can get from store.

What I meant about.. When I have seen flesh are dried, the "white flesh" will "vanish" and there are left only skin with dark dried flesh. And I believe there is mescaline in white inner flesh also but amount of it can be smaller.. I don't see reason why alkaloids are not all over the flesh but with different concentrations.. Even white flesh turn to "dark green" when you remove water from it.

It's hard to compare about but what I know from fact, let's assume you have 15inch section cuttings. Another is 1inch thick and another is ~2inch thick.. when you remove core and dry both.. There is huge difference with dried flesh.

What comes to fresh plant. It's hard to say is slim section more potent than fat.

I don't think myself only green outer tissue contains mescaline, there is mescaline everywhere but biggest concentrations are in fact at the outer dark green tissue.

It's hard to estimate do slim sections contains more mescaline than fat ones but what I have got experience from dried flesh produced from slim plant and dried plant, dried dosage to have same experience are exactly same and if there is some difference it's so minimal it can't be measured from one dosage.

If you have possibility to do extraction of salts and analyze them, then you could say slim sections are "stronger" but what I have find out from dried tissue, from fat and slim sections (same clone) dosage is exactly same so I don't see why slim plants are more potent.

One experience about this can be result if you let fat cutting to dehydrate and it will obviously go more slim.. Ofc then there is less water, more flesh and mescaline.

What I have experienced from drying the plant flesh, everything except the core. Dried amount of plant tissue no matter is it dried from slim or fat, dosage are as equal and very hard to tell what is really more potent.

IF you think this trough math there is less surface in small diameter plant than fat and if there is most mescaline in the surface of plant, you can think what plant have more stuff... But living plants are hard to say for sure what are more potent and what isn't.. There should be measured the water in the tissue of plant.. Is it watered of dehydrated etc.. Like I said I have not find out any difference from same clone another grown at windowsill slim and another in greenhouse more fat. If these are dried without core, there is equal dosage no matter of thickness of cuttings.

IMO best way to find out the potency of plant is simple, remove core and dry and find out how much dry flesh you have. I have find out it's very hard to know real potency of cacti if you process living cutting. You can't know how much water there is in cutting and therefor it effects to actual "potency" and best way to get relatively good compare result are just "removing the water" (=dry everything) and scale the weight.

By weighting the living plant it's not so reliable to say the potency. When you remove the water away from tissue(dry the cactus) it's more reliable to say the potency of plant.

Trichs are also very hard to say because I have heard strong clones have lost their potency when environment have been changed.. There is not known what causes the "loss of mescaline" or is it because of person who grow the plants. Basically nutrients have big role in synthesis of phenethylamines and also they effects the growth of plant.

I have yet not find out "strong san pedro" loose it's potency when it change it's environment.. But there can be many factors, plant genetic, person who grow it, environment, maybe dormancy periods and so on..

But I can't say it's a fact slim cactus are less potent than full sun fat grown one. Assuming the plant is dried and slim cactus have been grown under light or at windowsill. Only thing I can say poor light causes less mass growth over the season compared to greenhouse or outdoor grown trichocereus. So basically flesh is relatively same potency if clone is same but amount of light can define how much actual "dry flesh" you can get over one season..

If I remember right this right; 12inch section of fat plant you can have ~20-25grams of dried flesh.. Slim cactus 12inch section barely can give you 5-8grams of dried cactus so you can make your own decision from this do slim living section are more potent or not. Basically slim and fat with same length causes the math there is 30-50% less dry stuff from slim cactus. But this starts to go offtopic of EG so I don't say so much more about diameters and so on.

And do not take my numbers as a fact, I just meant to give you some "perspective" about what is the difference of fat and slim cactus.. Potency isn't different, assuming clones are same, but amount of dry flesh(most reliable way to find out the potency) you can grow over one season can be very different and that is an environmental factor.

There are number of factors(environment, grower, etc) what cause the actual yield of harvest over one season. I don't know where you have got information slim sections are more potent than fat ones because my tests have been shown there are no difference at all, slim plan just have less flesh and therefor less mescaline what is in the flesh of cactus.



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Edited by intelligentlife (01/16/14 05:51 AM)


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OfflineRauhfasertapete
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Re: Very young trichocereus peruvians [Re: intelligentlife]
    #19426347 - 01/16/14 06:01 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

yeah, probably my reasoning was irrelevant, as the white flesh mainly consists of mucus (which mainly consists of water) anyway. So it´s the total yoield of dried matter (which is mostlybark) what counts.

Quote:

intelligentlife said:
Trichs are also very hard to say because I have heard strong clones have lost their potency when environment have been changed.. There is not known what causes the "loss of mescaline" or is it because of person who grow the plants. Basically nutrients have big role in synthesis of phenethylamines and also they effects the growth of plant.

I have yet not find out "strong san pedro" loose it's potency when it change it's environment.. But there can be many factors, plant genetic, person who grow it, environment, maybe dormancy periods and so on..





I´ve once read somewhere that the alkaloid content rises during dormancy, especially when kept in the dark. Ever heard about that?

Where do you actually live? Iceland? Scandinavia? It somehow seems to me that the arctic seasons are very suitable for growing cacti.


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Offlineintelligentlife
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Re: Very young trichocereus peruvians [Re: Rauhfasertapete]
    #19428070 - 01/16/14 01:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I have heard from old people who grow these sacred plants long arctic summers are very good for cacti. Some have heated greenhouses, some use greenhouse over summer and keep plants indoors over winter. I have heard same thing arctic summers are very good for cacti in greenhouse and someway mimic the mountain environment like in their native habitat, hot days and very chilly nights.

I have heard content of alkaloids can rise when you take cutting, keep it in dark and cool for months and then ingest it. Cutting will stay alive and probably because of this also metabolism of plant keeps going on and it can rise the potency.

But one thing also what can rise potency is just the lack of water what cutting will loose over the time in the dark. So therefor there is same amount of mescaline but living plant weights less because of dehydration.

I have heard long time kept in storage cuttings will rise their potency over the time(probably due to metabolism) and as long as cutting stay alive, metabolism will keeps going on and probably the mescaline production aswell.

Also I have heard two season old tissue is most strongest, I don't know is this because of dormancy  or not. Also I have no first hand experience about that. But one interesting thing I find out was long time storage cuttings "feels" they're stronger than new cuttings.. Still I can't say it's a fact but probably long time storage cuttings can be compared to 2 season old tissue in plant.

I have not find solid facts for this but I have heard many people who consume trichs keep them in dry, cool and dark many months before ingestion. Cutting will be living section of plant long time and metabolism probably continue so why not this could not increase the potency?

These are just my hypothesis about things but seems long time storage cuttings are someway stronger compared to freshly cut sections from plant. But I don't know is this because of they shrink over time and they just feel stronger or do the metabolism caused the mescaline production and increase the potency over the time..

Maybe this should be investigated but probably best results could be achieved with laboratory extraction instead of testing out them by consuming the plants.

However, consuming the plant you can have some "idea" how much mescaline there is in the section what's ingested but it doesn't tell exact amount. What comes to storage the cutting and it's potency, there should be done experiment with one year storaged cutting and cutting from same clone harvested and it's only one season old tissue. Also this should be tested in lab to confirm do this increase the potency or not. Afaik in some places around south america are common the sections are storaged few months before ingestion, maybe there is some truth behind this but I'm not sure how much of metabolism what keeps going on in the cutting increases the mescaline content or not.. I have not even bother to find out much of an information about that.


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Edited by intelligentlife (01/16/14 01:31 PM)


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OfflineRauhfasertapete
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Re: Very young trichocereus peruvians [Re: intelligentlife]
    #19428307 - 01/16/14 02:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

It may not even be so easy to get some definite results by testing the alkaloid contents in a laboratory, because it usually is not only the mescalin that causes the cactus eater to trip; there may be lots of other phenethylamines (most of them not active by themselves, but only in combination) that can have an influence on the way the mescalin works. So measruing the quantitative content of the main alkaloids may not lead to an answer to the question if storage increases anything, and if something, then what actually? As far as I know, there has never been any research done on how exactly the different alkaloids of a given species work together, there are only assumptions. It´s all mysterious as fuck.

by he way, i think we´ve captured the thread a long time ago.


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Re: Very young trichocereus peruvians [Re: Rauhfasertapete]
    #19428685 - 01/16/14 03:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rauhfasertapete said:
It may not even be so easy to get some definite results by testing the alkaloid contents in a laboratory, because it usually is not only the mescalin that causes the cactus eater to trip; there may be lots of other phenethylamines (most of them not active by themselves, but only in combination) that can have an influence on the way the mescalin works. So measruing the quantitative content of the main alkaloids may not lead to an answer to the question if storage increases anything, and if something, then what actually? As far as I know, there has never been any research done on how exactly the different alkaloids of a given species work together, there are only assumptions. It´s all mysterious as fuck.

by he way, i think we´ve captured the thread a long time ago.




I have know this basically years but anyway, just wanted to write as clear as possible and use only main compound what is basically "most active" ..I don't still say there are nothing worth of any other alkaloids, some have been claimed to be MAO-Inhibitors etc.. Still yet much of research to do but as well as we all know, in most parts of the world consumption of this plant is illegal and therefor basically funding these kind of studies or so are one of the many problems. Also most compounds of phenethylamines and their function are not know, there are some trace amount of different alkaloids or so.. Maybe plant just process lots of alkaloids and one major alkaloid in the plant is mescaline and as a result of synthesis of phenethylamines there are some analogue compounds of mescaline and yet their function isn't researched enough.

I think Mr. Shulgin have test some of these compound and afaik first his synthesis was TMA compound from mescaline.. But I have read about he have synthesis or extracted another compound and reported most of them to be inactive at relatively high doses, but it doesn't count out the possibility the're two compounds acting together and create some effects with mescaline..

I have heard lots of reports about mescaline hcl and it have been said it's not "same" than actual cacti beverage so there is no doubt some compound acting with mescaline or together with some another compounds, still most of these "trash compounds" are just trace amounts and probably have some another purpose.. Maybe cacti is more complex than we think, we all know phenethylamines are very bad tasting, and most cacti contains phenethylamies.. Maybe it's an defend mechanism against animals who trying to find water.. What could be better way to prevent animals eating the plant than making the plant tasting and smell so bad it's not even interested of water seeking animals? ...we don't know what the function of these compounds are anyway.. Maybe it's good thing... Gives us some magic to this sacred plant.

However, yet this was basically get someway offtopic but since consumption was get in to talk or so, I think I could write some what I have experienced..

We can get back to main topic, just post something you want to know or update about how's the project is going. :yesnod:


--------------------


Edited by intelligentlife (01/16/14 03:32 PM)


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