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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Lucifer [Re: Spokesman]
    #1936591 - 09/21/03 12:34 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I think God is compassionate creation and love and Lucifer is destruction and fear. Good and evil are human concepts. However, I've seen God get pissed, and Lucifer has loved. There is always an exception to the rule.


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Lucifer [Re: Shroomism]
    #1936808 - 09/21/03 02:11 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

God created Lucifer. Balance




"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

-Isaiah 45:6-7

I don't view the Bible as the sole revealer of truth, but this verse does grab your attention.


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Offlinewrestler_az
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Re: Lucifer [Re: Adamist]
    #1937172 - 09/21/03 05:04 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

This thread is very interesting...but i believe the referecne of lucifer to satan to be somewhat of a mistake. When i read the passage in Isaiah refering to lucifer, I get the understanding that it is not talking about satan at all, but the fall af a babylonian king. I think that somewhere down the line someone thought that it would be cooler if the story were to be about a fallen angel to whom they gave the name Lucifer, and this idea has stuck ever since. Lucifer is from the latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light. (if im wrong here please correct me) In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." (once again, my knowledge of the translations is limited, so im only going by what others have told me.) The scholars who translated the Bible into current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated ... largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the morning star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell.

Its kinda ironic that the same title ('morning star' or 'light-bearer') is used to refer to Jesus...

anyway, just my 2 cents :grin:

 


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  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Lucifer [Re: wrestler_az]
    #1937210 - 09/21/03 05:38 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Lucifer is the Angel of Light


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Lucifer [Re: Shroomism]
    #1937274 - 09/21/03 07:20 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
I think God is compassionate creation and love and Lucifer is destruction and fear. Good and evil are human concepts.




Do you mean that God symbolizes creation and love and Lucifer symbolizes destruction and fear?

I agree with you that good and evil are human concepts. I just see it that Lucifer gave us the choice.. that he isn't actually destruction and fear, just that he gave the ability of free will... it did pull us out of "Eden", or whatever, but that was sort of the point, so that we would be given a catalyst for growth...

This belief shouldn't be confused with Satanism, either, because that set of beliefs is just as misleading as Christianity is today. I believe that they probably get what I said above confused with all the shit about Satan that Christianity has spread.. who knows. :evil:
Peace.


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Lucifer [Re: wrestler_az]
    #1937628 - 09/21/03 12:35 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

When i read the passage in Isaiah refering to lucifer, I get the understanding that it is not talking about satan at all, but the fall af a babylonian king




I didn't state the passage was referring to Lucifer.
Just that according to this one book, God Himself creates evil.


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Lucifer [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1937661 - 09/21/03 12:49 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I just see it that Lucifer gave us the choice.. that he isn't actually destruction and fear, just that he gave the ability of free will... it did pull us out of "Eden", or whatever, but that was sort of the point, so that we would be given a catalyst for growth...





Exactly. Someone does something terribly wrong. They provide the fuel. Lucifer provides the hell fire. It's an exchange: The fire consumes the evil in that person, Lucifer gets his jollies, and if all goes well the fire has tempered that person into a purer form. The balance is restored. In this way Lucifer is seen as a partner to God.

However, if the person continues to identify with the wrongness in himself (or what is not Self) he will experience this process as being excruciating. If your coat is on fire what do you do? Take it off right? You don't keep wearing it!! The pain burns like fire. Hopefully he will not resist evil and let the process be complete.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Lucifer [Re: Jellric]
    #1937684 - 09/21/03 01:03 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I have always intrepeted God and Lucifer like this:

God is light
Lucifer is the bringer of Light
God is
Lucifer does

Lao Tzu is a godly person
Thomas Jefferson is a Luciferian

they both have their strengths and weaknesses


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Get yourself cleaned out.'


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Lucifer [Re: Jellric]
    #1937690 - 09/21/03 01:08 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Jellric said:
Exactly. Someone does something terribly wrong. They provide the fuel. Lucifer provides the hell fire. It's an exchange: The fire consumes the evil in that person, Lucifer gets his jollies, and if all goes well the fire has tempered that person into a purer form. The balance is restored. In this way Lucifer is seen as a partner to God. 




Or, someone does something terribly wrong. They suffer the consequences. Lucifer shakes his head, as someone has opted to act negatively, but he remembers that the choice was given to us as a species for our own good, so that we would have someting to learn from and something to evolve from..

Someone who experiences suffering from this person's negative actions sees how pointless acting like that is, and adjusts their own life to live more positively and without inflicting harm and suffering on others.. perhaps the one that did something wrong realizes the mistakes of his ways.

So, Lucifer gets his jollies because he has seen us take one further step towards evolving to a higher consciousness, and he calls us God, who he himself is a part of, and let's him know how this "free will" he developed for this galaxy is working quite well, better than the old model, Eden, that was set up..

Hehe, I like this one better. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
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:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Lucifer [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1937694 - 09/21/03 01:09 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I have always intrepeted God and Lucifer like this:

God is light
Lucifer is the bringer of Light
God is
Lucifer does





That is quite the interpetation! Great, man! :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Lucifer [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1937957 - 09/21/03 03:17 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

That's a very similar interpretation to mine.  :crazy2:


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Offlinewrestler_az
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Re: Lucifer [Re: Jellric]
    #1938402 - 09/21/03 07:05 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"I didn't state the passage was referring to Lucifer.
Just that according to this one book, God Himself creates evil."

i wasnt trying to say you did...but many people do. isnt isaiah the ony place in the bible that mentions the word lucifer? all i was trying to say is that we may be wrong in giving satan the name lucifer, cause i dont think that was what the passage was about. this fact was not intended to (and does not) change any of the ideas talked about in this thread. this has been an awsome thread...alot of good insight on good and evil... i have enjoyed it so far


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  Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM) 


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Offlineblahwhatever
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Re: Lucifer [Re: Swami]
    #1938427 - 09/21/03 07:21 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"I've been thinking about the story of Lucifer and how he "rebelled" against God by making his own creation, which is supposedly the reality we live in. " where did you read this story that lucifer made his own creation?It was gods creation of this world and his plan for it that lucifer didnt want part of or "rebeled"against.and then the rebelling son of the morning became lucifer the fallen according to the story.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Lucifer [Re: blahwhatever]
    #1939868 - 09/22/03 06:26 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blahwhatever said:
"I've been thinking about the story of Lucifer and how he "rebelled" against God by making his own creation, which is supposedly the reality we live in. " where did you read this story that lucifer made his own creation?It was gods creation of this world and his plan for it that lucifer didnt want part of or "rebeled"against.and then the rebelling son of the morning became lucifer the fallen according to the story.




Yeah, and God appeared on my wall this morning, too...

There is as much evidence saying that God created Earth as there is that Lucifer did, and none of this "evidence" is actually evidence at all... it all comes down to personal beliefs.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
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For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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OfflineVulture
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Re: Lucifer [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1940339 - 09/22/03 12:49 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

isaiah 45:7 " i make peace, and create evil; i the lord do all these things"




i didnt read the whole thread yet but just something that has come to mind i would like to elaborate on.

Lucifer is a representation of evil and everything that goes against the WILL of god. Since god is everything and everything is god when looked at as a whole....then everything as it is and god would not be able to exist without these bad things represented as Lucifer. You cant have good without bad....it wouldent be good...it wouldent be anything. The fact that i am able to sit here and type this to you right now proves that EVERYTHING exits.

So we know that god is everything and all that. So we think well if the will of god is good and if god controls everything than why is there Lucifer and why are these bad things. But as i stated above...the bad things muct be in order for the good things to be...and just one glimpse of the ultimate truth is worth eternitys of suffering....for this ultimate truth is an unimaginable greatness.

i dont know if that made sense to any of you but i tried to put what i feel into words as best as i could :smile:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Lucifer [Re: Vulture]
    #1940446 - 09/22/03 01:25 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Vulture said:
Lucifer is a representation of evil and everything that goes against the WILL of god.




Since Lucifer is the Bringer of Light, who gave us the ability to exercise free will, I don't think it is fair to represent everything evil as him... he himself has done no evil (heh, how the fuck do we know he even exists...)

We don't know and don't have anyway of knowing the will of God, so us representing someone or some idea as everything that goes agansit the will of God is pretty pointless, since we don't actually know the will of God...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineVulture
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Re: Lucifer [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1940706 - 09/22/03 02:53 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Vulture said:
Lucifer is a representation of evil and everything that goes against the WILL of god.




Since Lucifer is the Bringer of Light, who gave us the ability to exercise free will, I don't think it is fair to represent everything evil as him... he himself has done no evil (heh, how the fuck do we know he even exists...)

We don't know and don't have anyway of knowing the will of God, so us representing someone or some idea as everything that goes agansit the will of God is pretty pointless, since we don't actually know the will of God...
Peace.




yes...but personally i dont look upon Lucifer as an actualy being....only a name used to represent a bunch of different things. I look at god in the same way...god is not an individual being...god is only a name used to make it easier to refer to everything. There is no reason for everything existing....the reason would be because of the infinite consiousness....which is everything. God is the infinite consiousness and ultimatly controls everything....every action had an equal and opposite reaction....every action is only a reaction to the action that caused it, eventually ending in the very first action caused by the existance of everything....it is because it is because it is and so on....

this physical plane is only a huge illusion that keeps us distracted from experiencing the truth. Time is only part of that illusion....therefore when you realize that time doesent exist...you realize that god is the only thing...we can become aware of this thing and become it...or become one. That is the only thing worth working for in these lives.

We might not "know" the will of god. To me....god doesent have a will....going back to what i said earlier about time...god is everything...it is THE essence...it doesent sit there and command shit. It doesent really have a will since time doesent exist outside of the physical...god just is...everything just is...without time everything just is all at the same time....although the same goes for the gross world...time makes us think that things are going on at different times...when really it all just is.

what is the best feeling in the world?

Love

you know how it is when you feel love...just imagine feeling love surged throughout your entire being infinitly intense....you would feel as if you were just one huge infinitely massive orgasm of all knowing and understanding bliss. That is god....and although the bad comes with it...it is nothing compared to the Love that is god. Love is the first thing...it is the first action that everything is a manifestation or reaction of. Why is it? it just is. How is it? it just is.....there is no explanation.

once you get a taste of what god really is....that feeling, better than any other feeling, that feeling that lets you forget about everything else and never want to come back...that feeling that you would never want to come back from....that is gods love...and that is what you will be. And once you get that taste you will realize that this is the only thing worth working for and that almost everything else going on in this world is a big pile of meaningless shit thats just keeping everyone from understanding the ultimate truth and that keeping everyone from working together as a whole to do nothing other than better mankind and to advance spritually.

once again i tried to convey what i feel as best i could with words...its kinda like discribing an egoless acid trip to someone...very hard to find words for it. But most of these feeling come from what ive learned from Ram Dass (Dr. Richard Alpert) The Tibetan Book of the Dead, Meher Baba, many other metaphysical books....and my personals expereinces in life with and without psycadelic chemicals and/or astral projection.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Lucifer [Re: Vulture]
    #1940919 - 09/22/03 03:48 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Hehe, couldn't disagree with you in any way. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Lucifer [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1941294 - 09/22/03 05:22 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Aside from the rather benign 'satanism' of the late LaVey's Church of Satan, which was little more than a philosophy of self-indulgent egotism spiced with crude magickal intention and theatrics; and the Temple of Set - a spin-off from LaVey's group with a tad more malevolence, the real satanists of modernism have probably been groups of sexual sadists. If one turns to the latter part of the Marquis DeSade's 'Justine,' and looks for the Black Mass conducted by the flagellant monks of St. Mary-in-the-Woods monastery, one finds sufficient food for the creatively perverse mind.

A reading of Stan Grof's work on the 'Basic Perinatal Matrix III,' will illustrate psychologically how the torturous, constrictive, suffocating, terrifying phase of the birth process, impressed into the unconscious of the neonatal infant, can later emerge in all the leather, rubber, ball-gag-suffocation-threatening, restrictive, painful, blood-letting, fear-inducing activities of the sexual sado-masochist unconsciously reproducing this terrible phase of the birth process, which is simultaneously 'polymorphously sexual' (the infant's entire body is sexually sensitive, not just the genitals as in later life). Satanism is the symbolic representation of these dark, painful-yet-sexual experiences, and their celebration to the point of veneration - hence the dark, perverted symbols of Light (e.g., inverted crosses, sacramental feces and urine [as the Latin words that say that we are born "intra faeces et urinas," - between shit and piss - which does occur in childbirth, and is the source of these perversions], etc.). So satanist-sado-masochists are re-enacting negative intra-extra-uterine experiences, and symbolizing them with the trappings of black hooded robes (hoods are reminiscent of the clitoral hood, btw), dim lights (which can be perceived by the infant passing through the birth canal) and other weird-ass stuff.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Lucifer [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1941418 - 09/22/03 05:55 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I just like the music and the leather and candles and such.. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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