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Invisiblespaceman101
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psycadelic cacti?
    #19409696 - 01/12/14 07:04 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

I've been looking around and have made a few searches trying to find different mind altering or psycadelic compounds that are produced within different cacti or succulents but all I could find is a lot of info on mescaline and the cacti that produce it. I was wandering if anyone could name anything new that might be worth trying out or is this just an untapped field of study?


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: psycadelic cacti? [Re: spaceman101]
    #19409713 - 01/12/14 07:09 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

all of the major psychedelic cacti are so because they contain mescaline.


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: psycadelic cacti? [Re: spaceman101]
    #19409832 - 01/12/14 07:41 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

The only psychoactive chemical in cacti is mescaline.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: psycadelic cacti? [Re: nooneman]
    #19409943 - 01/12/14 08:09 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
The only psychoactive chemical in cacti is mescaline.



wrong. There are a medley of different chemicals that work together to make each cactus have a unique trip profile.


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Invisiblespaceman101
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Re: psycadelic cacti? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19410005 - 01/12/14 08:24 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

I understand what your talking about psyconaught and I appreciate your reply but I meant to explain that I'm trying to find any alternate chemicals that are around the same level of mescaline being a powerful psycadelic on it's own or maybe even any chemicals that have effects similar or on the same kind of level as opium from poppies or any other chemicals produced in plants. If they're not present in cacti or succulents what is the reason and why isn't cacti chemistry as diverse and plant chemistry?


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OfflinetheMallacht
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Re: psycadelic cacti? [Re: spaceman101]
    #19410029 - 01/12/14 08:28 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

What do you mean why is it not as diverse?

Maybe because you're talking about all of the leafed plants in the world vs all of the cacti on the world, which is just ONE family, the Cactacae family.

There is actually a wide spectrum of alkaloids present in the Trichocereus cacti alone. A simple :google: search would have yielded phenomenal results.

GREAT INFO!


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: psycadelic cacti? [Re: theMallacht]
    #19410039 - 01/12/14 08:31 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

theMallacht said:
There is actually a wide spectrum of alkaloids present in the Trichocereus cacti alone.



None of them are active though, except mescaline.


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OfflinetheMallacht
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Re: psycadelic cacti? [Re: nooneman]
    #19410051 - 01/12/14 08:33 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Active?

When people use the word "active" they are questioning whether a cactus has, or doesn't have alkaloids, period.

Saying that alkaloids are not "active" doesn't make any sense.

They surely are active, and as someone said above, there is a whole medley of them that help to make each experience, with each different type of cactus, a completely different one.


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: psycadelic cacti? [Re: theMallacht]
    #19410066 - 01/12/14 08:36 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Active means psychoactive, which they're not.

It's a myth that cacti contain anything psychoactive except mescaline. Both Shulgin and Joemolloy have confirmed this.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: psycadelic cacti? [Re: nooneman]
    #19410099 - 01/12/14 08:43 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

its not a myth
http://gradworks.umi.com/14/78/1478388.html

mescaline is the main psychoactive chemical in all of the carious hallucinogenic cacti. But they all contain a unique blend of other alkaloids that makes each cacti different in terms of experience.


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: psycadelic cacti? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19410124 - 01/12/14 08:48 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

You should read your own links. The only thing that paper is about is documenting the various alkaloid contents of cacti. It isn't about whether or not those alkaloids are psychoactive.

Those alkaloids are not psychoactive, and that paper doesn't claim that they are.


Edited by nooneman (01/12/14 08:49 PM)


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: psycadelic cacti? [Re: nooneman]
    #19410142 - 01/12/14 08:54 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

al·ka·loid
ˈalkəˌloid/Submit
nounCHEMISTRY
1.
any of a class of nitrogenous organic compounds of plant origin that have pronounced physiological actions on humans.


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Invisiblespaceman101
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Re: psycadelic cacti? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19410208 - 01/12/14 09:10 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

ok I think nooneman basically confirmed my original idea and I to explain a little better I was asking about any chemicals that form inside of any cactus or succulent in large enough amounts that if it were purely extracted and taken alone without any other chemical or alkaloid would produce a mind altering affect whether euphoria or a psycadelic experience.


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Invisiblekarode13Facebook
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Re: psycadelic cacti? [Re: spaceman101]
    #19410765 - 01/13/14 12:18 AM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

spaceman101 said:
ok I think nooneman basically confirmed my original idea and I to explain a little better I was asking about any chemicals that form inside of any cactus or succulent in large enough amounts that if it were purely extracted and taken alone without any other chemical or alkaloid would produce a mind altering affect whether euphoria or a psycadelic experience.





And the answer is no, unless you include Hordenine. Which you don't because it's not a pleasant alkaloid to mess with. Google it.


If you're interested in this field then track down: Trout's notes on: Sacred Cacti and Some Selected Succulents.


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Edited by karode13 (01/13/14 03:42 AM)


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Offlineintelligentlife
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Re: psycadelic cacti? [Re: karode13]
    #19411099 - 01/13/14 03:22 AM (10 years, 18 days ago)

There are 2 or 3 "some way active" phenethylamines in cacti with mescaline, effects of them are hard to say, some have said they're relaxing and speedy.. Also I have heard pure mescaline feels different than cacti beverage..

Well If that's true, it's obvious there is compounds in cacti what makes the whole experience with mescaline, but anyway.. Mescaline is the main active compound in every psychoactive cacti but ingestion of cacti and having experience, there are few compounds more and they're active with mescaline and whole beverage is basically a cocktail of phenethylamines.

Like there are said, mescaline is the psychoactive one, some another phenethylamine compounds can cause minor effects with mescaline or without but they're not so powerful with psychoactive effects. Also probably these phenethylamine cocktail effects have not studied so much and usually are said it's mescaline what gives an effects but those who have done extractions have said it's better to leave extract with other compounds and take it with mescaline cause they all make the experience, if you separate mescaline away from every compound, I have read reports it's not so perfect and doesn't give the similar experience than whole cocktail of phenethylamines, however, no one really doesn't know what compound acting only with mescaline, are there two or three compounds "inactive" but when they're together they are active and are some compound active after metabolism and so on.. Some sacred cacti alkaloids have said to be also antibiotic etc..

But if you are looking for some very potent psychedelic compound, it is mescaline, and whole experience are said to be best when you just take whole cocktail what cacti have.. Some strain can have different amount of certain compounds and some strain can totally lack of one from the whole spectrum of phenethylamines, some strains lack the actual mescaline or there are just traces of it.

It's not well studied what compounds in cacti are really "active" in that sentence they effect to human mind, what compounds are inactive bu turns to be active when they're combined with some another compounds and so on..

Lophophora diffusa plant have said to be very different and not even close to mescaline.. I don't really know, there are very less amounts of reports about diffusa.

One erowid report I have found from l. diffusa.. There are said it's active, very much deliriant like datura, but dosage or plant and everything are very much unknown. No one know for sure what makes lophophora diffusa cause these effects.. But mescaline it's not a mescaline. Also I don't know about erowid report of lophophora diffusa do these writers of the report have just taken peyote in the desert or purposely taken the diffusa and what's the story of the two person write an article about l. diffusa and it's psychoactive properties. I really don't know much dosage, effects of anything about lophophora diffusa or is it really even active.. Like I said it's hard to know do these guys have just taken big dose of peyote think they're eating l. diffusa or what..

However, mescaline it is.. Only the one and main compound in cacti and other compounds are just "something more" ..like I said, there have been said mescaline alone as extracted powder form are different than actual cacti beverage but not much, most have said mescaline powder doesn't have "the thing" what actual beverage of cacti gives.. But I can't say more about it or about l. diffusa. I have not taken mescaline as salt form(I mean only the mescaline extract away from plant) and I have not consumed any diffusa.


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OfflineAopocetx
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Re: psycadelic cacti? [Re: spaceman101]
    #19411385 - 01/13/14 06:37 AM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

spaceman101 said:
ok I think nooneman basically confirmed my original idea and I to explain a little better I was asking about any chemicals that form inside of any cactus or succulent in large enough amounts that if it were purely extracted and taken alone without any other chemical or alkaloid would produce a mind altering affect whether euphoria or a psycadelic experience.




No there isn't much. I understand what you're saying and I've never come across anything.


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OfflineRauhfasertapete
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Re: psycadelic cacti? [Re: intelligentlife]
    #19411461 - 01/13/14 07:25 AM (10 years, 18 days ago)

There is quite a number of cacti that are said are holy for the tarahumara and huichol people. most of them don´t contain mescaline, or only in traces. Ariocarpus fissuratus and A. retusus for example, are known as "evil peyote", probably for their presumed MAO-i-contents, that produce different psychotropic (or more likely outright toxic) effects, depending on the way of life and nutrition of the person eating it. Especially A. retusus is a feared and forbidden plant. The difficult to grow Atztekium ritterii is another very holy plant, then there was Obergonia denegrii, Solisia pectinifera, and a few more. And I also know only the species that are quite commonly known for their reputation,but who knows what grows out there in the desert.

Pure synthetic mescaline is said to need about 2 hours after ingestion until the trip starts. Mescaline cacti go much faster, probably because of a number of other phenethylamines like mainly 3,4-Dimethoxyphenethylamine (DMPEA), which are not psychoactive by themselves. I´ve once read a lot into that subject, but my notes are all in a flat in another town, so I can´t actually tell you much about the chemistry (wasn´t really revealing anyway); but I can tell you that the single "nice" and "recreative" substance in the cacti is the mescaline, whereas the Evil Peyote is not good for nice trips, but rather for the purpose of witchcraft and shamanism.

most cacti species also produce high amounts of hordenine and tyramine, which are sometimes used by bodybuilders for some kind of doping purposes or something. however, in a normal person´s body they are instantly eleminated by the MAO; but they may have (probably nasty) effects if ingested together with DMPEA or whatever synthetic MAO-i you may get. It may actually be a very interesting project to try out some of those Evil Peyote together with a Williamsii or Trichocereus. Or together with mushrooms. Or even L.Williamsii (which also may contain lots of MAO-inhibitors) together with mushrooms.

Quote:

intelligentlife said:

One erowid report I have found from l. diffusa.. There are said it's active, very much deliriant like datura, but dosage or plant and everything are very much unknown. No one know for sure what makes lophophora diffusa cause these effects.. But mescaline it's not a mescaline. Also I don't know about erowid report of lophophora diffusa do these writers of the report have just taken peyote in the desert or purposely taken the diffusa and what's the story of the two person write an article about l. diffusa and it's psychoactive properties. I really don't know much dosage, effects of anything about lophophora diffusa or is it really even active.. Like I said it's hard to know do these guys have just taken big dose of peyote think they're eating l. diffusa or what..




I´ve read that report too. Look for it on erowid; according to those two guys this L. diffusa (or whatever it was... it was perhaps misidentified, or another cspecies or chemotype?) was by far more powerful than a normal mescalin cactus. However I would recommend you to read into ethnographic literature instead of searching through drug forums on the internet, where people only repeat what they´ve read on drug forums or on wikipedia before. Actually nobody knows shit about that topic. There are lots of dangerous experiments to do.


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InvisibleKBG1977
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Re: psycadelic cacti? [Re: karode13]
    #19412394 - 01/13/14 01:10 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

karode13 said:
Quote:

spaceman101 said:
ok I think nooneman basically confirmed my original idea and I to explain a little better I was asking about any chemicals that form inside of any cactus or succulent in large enough amounts that if it were purely extracted and taken alone without any other chemical or alkaloid would produce a mind altering affect whether euphoria or a psycadelic experience.





And the answer is no, unless you include Hordenine. Which you don't because it's not a pleasant alkaloid to mess with. Google it.


If you're interested in this field then track down: Trout's notes on: Sacred Cacti and Some Selected Succulents.




don't forget lophophorine,pellotine,gigantine,anhalonidine,and of course hordenine.Although I've never tried,and won't ever get to,because my tripping days are long over,they say Difussa is active,and those alkaloids are responsible for it's effects.I don't know this for certain though:shrug:


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Offlineintelligentlife
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Re: psycadelic cacti? [Re: KBG1977]
    #19412415 - 01/13/14 01:16 PM (10 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

KBG1977 said:
Quote:

karode13 said:
Quote:

spaceman101 said:
ok I think nooneman basically confirmed my original idea and I to explain a little better I was asking about any chemicals that form inside of any cactus or succulent in large enough amounts that if it were purely extracted and taken alone without any other chemical or alkaloid would produce a mind altering affect whether euphoria or a psycadelic experience.





And the answer is no, unless you include Hordenine. Which you don't because it's not a pleasant alkaloid to mess with. Google it.


If you're interested in this field then track down: Trout's notes on: Sacred Cacti and Some Selected Succulents.




don't forget lophophorine,pellotine,gigantine,anhalonidine,and of course hordenine.Although I've never tried,and won't ever get to,because my tripping days are long over,they say Difussa is active,and those alkaloids are responsible for it's effects.I don't know this for certain though:shrug:




I would not consume l. diffusa without proper information about the plant. One reason is I don't like deliriant effects at all, also I have hardly find proper evidence of it's consumption.

Nice and cool plant it is to grow anyway. :thumbup:


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InvisibleKBG1977
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Re: psycadelic cacti? [Re: intelligentlife]
    #19412423 - 01/13/14 01:19 PM (10 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

intelligentlife said:
Quote:

KBG1977 said:
Quote:

karode13 said:
Quote:

spaceman101 said:
ok I think nooneman basically confirmed my original idea and I to explain a little better I was asking about any chemicals that form inside of any cactus or succulent in large enough amounts that if it were purely extracted and taken alone without any other chemical or alkaloid would produce a mind altering affect whether euphoria or a psycadelic experience.





And the answer is no, unless you include Hordenine. Which you don't because it's not a pleasant alkaloid to mess with. Google it.


If you're interested in this field then track down: Trout's notes on: Sacred Cacti and Some Selected Succulents.




don't forget lophophorine,pellotine,gigantine,anhalonidine,and of course hordenine.Although I've never tried,and won't ever get to,because my tripping days are long over,they say Difussa is active,and those alkaloids are responsible for it's effects.I don't know this for certain though:shrug:




I would not consume l. diffusa without proper information about the plant. One reason is I don't like deliriant effects at all, also I have hardly find proper evidence of it's consumption.

Nice and cool plant it is to grow anyway. :thumbup:




I wouldn't have done it even if I still tripped,and I don't condone it's usage,I was just adding that in:-)That being said,it's my most sought after Loph right now,and I'm going to get my hands on some one of these days!


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InvisibleKBG1977
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Re: psycadelic cacti? [Re: KBG1977]
    #19412628 - 01/13/14 02:14 PM (10 years, 17 days ago)

Dang,I've been looking around,and it seems Difussa can be just as expensive as Williamsii!


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OfflineRauhfasertapete
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Re: psycadelic cacti? [Re: KBG1977]
    #19413086 - 01/13/14 04:08 PM (10 years, 17 days ago)

and you will probably not find out what species it actually is before it grows a flower.

I got some seeds, but it will take years until I know if the trader really is such a specialist that he had almost each and every species and subspecies of Lophophora, or if he just cheated me and sold me the same williamsii under some different names


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